Racism in golf strikes again

by McLaren Sun 28 Jul 2013, 10:18 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jul/27/steve-elkington-apologises-racist-tweets

The Guardian wrote:

Steve Elkington apologises over 'racist' tweets at British Senior Open

Steve Elkington, the 1995 US PGA champion, has thrown himself on the mercy of the European Tour over an offensive tweet he sent on Saturday morning and another from Friday in which he castigated the town of Southport, much of its population and its food.

"Couple caddies got rolled by some Pakkis, bad night for them", was the missive Elkington issued in the morning, following on from one in which he suggested that spending his week in the respectable Lancashire coastal town, which is hosting the Senior Open this week, was an experience he is not enjoying. "Things about Southport … fat tattooed guy, fat tattooed girl, trash, Pakistani robber guy, Poopie food."

Leaving aside the potential actions of the golf authorities, the language the 50-year-old used may see him the subject of legal action.

Elkington left the recorders' hut with his caddie after signing for a one-over 71 and headed straight for the competitors' car park. A European Tour official said the Australian did not wish to add to his statement which was issued at 2.15pm, 20 minutes after he teed off the third round accompanied by a policeman for the opening holes.

"I am prepared to adhere to any disciplinary action that the Championship sees fit," it read. "In my tweet I was referring to an unfortunate incident involving a caddie earlier in the week. Being Australian, I was unaware that my use of language in relation to the Pakistani people would cause offence, but having been made aware I now deeply regret the use of that terminology.

"Southport is a beautiful place and I have enjoyed playing at Royal Birkdale, as my positive content on Twitter has shown. My comments were born out of frustration over what had happened to a colleague."

Elkington was politely clapped by a largely unwitting crowd as he was introduced on the 1st tee and was the personification of politeness when he asked a fairway marshall to stand out of his eyeline before playing his second shot into the par-four 6th.

Earlier the European Tour issued a statement to say that it had spoken to Elkington about his "inappropriate and regrettable comments" and said the matter will be reviewed before the Championship considers disciplinary action. "Steve has expressed his regret at his comments and wishes to apologise to the Championship and the people of Southport for any offence caused."

Garcia and now this. :picard:

Will it ever end?

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:48 am

People are certainly more inclined to be offended about something these days, almost as if they feel they need to have a personal hobby horse to be offended by.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:51 am

JAS wrote:[...I don't know what cultural change that country has undergone that makes its citizens feel that and abbreviated name of the country is somehow inappropriate in a way that Scot isn't. Are they ashamed of their country and its record on lack of democracy and human rights abuses and so don't wish to be associated with it?...

Unfortunately JAS, 'Pakki' has never (at least not in my experience) been used simply as an abbreviation for 'Pakistani' - it's always been a racial slur and used as such. That said, on any scale, what Elkington said is is hardly worth the time of day. I'm with you 100% on the comparison between what Elkington was commenting on (i.e. caddies being assaulted) and his choice of language.

by McLaren Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:53 am

Navy

Any chance you provide the examples of the comments i have made which have caused so much offence?

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:54 am

I don't personally find it offensive, but you once said Westwood looked like he had downs syndrome.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 29 Jul 2013, 11:02 am

McLaren wrote:
navyblueshorts wrote:
JAS wrote:
....and so you are able to quote from something you never read???? Genius!!
Good spot. What a plum!

I meant that actual paper and not the online site. But if small smart arse come backs eases the blow of finding out how little people care about racism then so be it.

The Guardian's The Guardian Mac. Who gives a 4X if it's online or printed? Your claim not to read it seems a fair target for a laugh given the article you quote is taken from it. Seems that S_R might be right after all.
More seriously, what you seem to fail to grasp is that people make remarks, often stupid ones, which might be construed as racist but there's a long way from that to someone actually being racist. What evidence have you that Elkington lives his life to include racist principles? We should actively campaign to destroy the man for something trivial and daft that he said on that pathetic medium known as Twitter? Time for some perspective I think.
I'm fed up to the back teeth with this hair shirt-wearing self-flagelation that we seem to go in for in the UK now. Let me know when you have some genuinely significant racist behaviour worth discussing.

I can't be bothered to trek back over everything you've posted here to find offensive remarks but you've posted a good few even if they aren't racially-based. That's OK though I guess?

by Roller_Coaster Mon 29 Jul 2013, 11:05 am

I thought Westwood had "up & down" syndrome?

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 11:06 am

Roller_Coaster wrote:I thought Westwood had "up & down" syndrome?

by Bob_the_Job Mon 29 Jul 2013, 11:13 am

All in all it's disappointing, regrettable and not to be condoned, but hardly hold-the-presses important.

Cost of the average newspaper in the UK: £1

Mac denying reading the source he's just cited and then trying to weasle out of it: Priceless

by beninho Mon 29 Jul 2013, 11:47 am

No one seems to be telling anyone to be offended from what i can see. I can imagine very few people on this board would be offended, as assuming a vast majority are white middle class gentlemen, and not Asians who would take great offence of the word being used to describe an Asian person in a generic term.

And why should an individual need to find it offensive to declare that is is wrong.

And the guardian does no tell people to be offended, but the Daily Mail..whoa thats bad at it!

by JAS Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:05 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

Tell me something about yourself that has caused particular anguish in your life?

How about being suddenly & unexpectedly widowed 6 years ago. Good enough for you? Life is too short Mac, live it instead about worrying about how other people live theirs.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:07 pm

Well Mac was asserting that the entire world should shun Elkington on the back of a couple of poorly thought out tweets. So yes, there was certainly an inducement that people should be reacting more to the outspurt of some had been, geriatric, inbred redneck.

If you bother to read, subscribe, follow these morons on pointless media outlets, you shouldn't be surprised if you come across something you don't like.

It was hardly a Steven Lawrence type situation.

by McLaren Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:16 pm

Jas

Without the bounds of PC I may use that as a way to cause you distress and upset. Thankfully PC exists and I would never think of turning something that could cause you such a lot of upset against you.

So maybe you should consider how being PC can provide necessary barriers when people are unable to police their own comments. For example the upset caused by referring to a group of people in the way Elk did.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:22 pm

Has any group actually expressed offence, or are as usual you getting offended on their behalf?
Sometimes it seems that you try to tell certain groups what they should be offended at.

It shouldn't need a "barrier" or a "pc agenda". It requires Elkington to simply be a decent person. The fact he doesn't appear to be, and harbours certain views doens't mean we should take offence when he says it. It's just a word, albeit a poor choice of one. Why would anyone give a flying toss what he says, let alone be offended by it?

by beninho Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:41 pm

Political Correctness is a nonsense term made up by newspapers. You don't have to be PC as a person, just be thoughtful. If you set out to make a comment that someone could find offensive, its not that you are un PC its that you are probably a bit of a dick. People should just think before they tweet, type or speak. If you are liable to be offended stay away from places that may cause you offense.

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:54 pm

I'm not really sure that's fair Ben. So people who enjoy Twitter, or Facebook or whatever should avoid it just in case some dick says something inappropriate ? Its not like they are attending EDL marches and then being a bit upset with the language used by other marchers.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:56 pm

There are certain groups of people who I am not remotely bothered if I offend though. Religious, workshy, excessively fat, but not willing to take responsibility etc etc.

by Seve_The_Great Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:57 pm

It's hardly surprising that a forum dominated by white middle class men is willing to simply just sweep this moronic racist comment under the carpet. He has achieved a certain level of fame and will have a more than average number of followers on twitter. We all have a duty to not hold such ridiculous views but his is made greater by the fact that he can influence more people. Put it this way if any of the folks on here made such a statement at work, we'd not only face criminal charges but also never be empoyed again.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:01 pm

Nobody is saying that Seve, nobody has really deinied it's a racist statement, just that it doesn't deserve the hysterical response some are giving it.

He's perfectly entitled to hold any view he likes, as long as he doesn't express them in an illegal fashion. He's the one that looks the idiot and I'm sure even a halfwit like him realises it now, and I'm sure more so than any group is offended by his stupid statement.

I sincerely doubt that Steve Elkington 2013 influences anybody.

by JAS Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:03 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

Without the bounds of PC I may use that as a way to cause you distress and upset. Thankfully PC exists and I would never think of turning something that could cause you such a lot of upset against you.

So maybe you should consider how being PC can provide necessary barriers when people are unable to police their own comments. For example the upset caused by referring to a group of people in the way Elk did.

...Now who is making the silly comparisons. By choosing not to comment on such a situation has nothing whatsoever to do with being PC, that's just about being a decent person and knowing right from wrong.
Part of being a decent person is also knowing not to make a racist, sexist, bigoted or in some other way offensive slur against another human being. Alas, not everyone is a decent person, infact everyone will have some flaws to a greater or lesser degree.
The line you seem to be crossing is that you think everyone else should be as outraged and as offended as you over what Elkington and Garcia before him said. Furthermore those refusing to be outraged are now somehow by insinuation complicit in condoning what was said. Not so, one persons hobby horse is just another piece of wood to others and that doesn't make them not a decent person.

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:06 pm

Seve_The_Great wrote:...Put it this way if any of the folks on here made such a statement at work, we'd not only face criminal charges but also never be empoyed again.

I certainly hope this isn't the case. What a country if it is.

by beninho Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:25 pm

Diggers, I probably did not word it that well, That what i get for typing while not trying to get caught at work. I suppose my main issue, is people that set out to be offended. Read that something has happend then complain even though they have not actually seen or heard the instance. The case that happened with Jonathan Ross and Rusell Brand, a small people heard it maybe a couple complained, then disgusted of Tunbridge Wells got involved, and it went mad. Half the people had not listened to it.

But people take offence easily, i suppose its just part of the world. Be as offensive as you want in private but when you start making comments in a public forum then you are a bit of an idiot, and lose the right to complain about people being offended.

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:32 pm

But surely there is a case for saying if people don't get offended then there will be an awful lot more of this stuff out there.
Re Brand and Ross, the thing is they were clearly trying to get as many people as possible to listen to the prank.....that's what they are employed for after all... and they didn't care about the consequences. It was basically just a really nasty and arrogant thing to do and they deserved to get hammered for it, fortunately for them there fame was such that it didn't really put a dent in them.
There seems to be a view that Pakistanis throughout the country are not outraged so its OK, but clearly I guess very few of them follow the Elk on Twitter or have heard the case.
However if the precedent is that we shouldn't get offended by this then why should we get offended if say some right wing politician Tweets using the same kind of inflammatory language ?

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:40 pm

For goodness sake. The point is that people are not denying that it is racist, it clearly was, but if you aren't offended by it to the same degree to which Mac et al (or pretend to be) then you are a closet racist who is admitting it is ok to say such things and are almost advocating it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Nobody is saying Elkington should have said what he said, or that people should like it or lump it if he does, just that they find certain things less offensive than others, that isn't condoning racism, or excusing him, it's merely keeping things in perspective. It doesn't make you a racist if you aren't offended to a similar degree as our resident champagne socialist.

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:52 pm

Super what gives the right to decide what offends people and what doesn't. Once again it comes down to your own personal views, people have a much right to be offended as you have to be exasperated that they should choose to be offended. And of course it cant be real offence with other people, it has to be faux offense.
You cant have it both ways.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:58 pm

I don't have any right, but people (Mac) seems to assume that if you aren't appalled to the same degree as him then you are yourself harbouring racist views and condoning what elkington says.
I don't happen to think Elkingtons views are going to do any more than embarrass himself as is the case when most people do this sort of thing, unless of course you draw a cartoon of Mohammed etc then you really get crazy people reacting in an over the top faux offence way.
I really don't think many people are going to be massively offended by a redneck like Elkington.
I'm sure Elkington will issue a grovelling apology in any regard.

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:07 pm

One way of seeing it. Then again I see it as this is probably the clearest issue of a high profile golfer making racist remarks. This is clearly very soon after a massively high profile incident with Garcia, much discussed on here. I cant see any reason why it wouldn't warrant a mention. Then for mentioning it Mac gets hammered with the "oh here we go again with your faux offence" line.
Then you get the usual guff alluding to well why is the term even racist when we say Brit all the time......when clearly for whatever reason its always been used in an offensive and derogatory way.
Its a golf board, golfers read this and anyone who was possibly a fan of the guy should know what he is actually like.

by MustPuttBetter Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:11 pm

"Then you get the usual guff alluding to well why is the term even racist when we say Brit all the time"

To be fair, since i said something along these lines, it was just a question, and something i've wondered for ages. I'm not sure why that question should be considered 'guff', whatever that is. Is it something anyone can explain?

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:15 pm

MPB, thousands of words have incurred a particular meaning over the years, often there is no real way of knowing why. Like I said earlier in the thread I think the term was invented by non Pakistanis to be used to blanket cover virtually every Asian on the planet, so hardly appealing really.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:16 pm

Diggers, I've not even once suggested Brit carries the same stigma as the P word.

Why do I think Mac uses it in a false way? Because he routinely slags off plenty other things knowing they will offend certain people, yet always brings up a poor choice of words by some poorly educated sportsman as if they are David Irving or Nick Griffin and that said players should get lifetime bans, sponsorship bans etc.

If you don't want to be offended then don't say stuff which will offend other people.

I have no doubt that what Elkington said was both racist and to some people perhaps offensive, but it's hardly the crime of the century and anyone with half a brain will see that elkington has done more to himself, than in any sort of race relations between white middle class golfers and any minority.

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:20 pm

super_realist wrote:

anyone with half a brain will see that elkington has done more to himself, than in any sort of race relations between white middle class golfers and any minority.

Quite right...and why is that the case.....because people who you think shouldn't be bothered about it chose to take an interest in it.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:23 pm

Well that's the point isn't it Diggers? It reflects badly on Elkington only.

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:25 pm

But it wouldn't reflect on him if people hadn't kicked up a fuss.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:28 pm

Well it would amongst those sad enough to read his stuff or those desperate enough to trawl for silly remarks to jump upon.

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:31 pm

As opposed to him getting away with making the comments he did. That would be better ?

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:35 pm

I'm not suggesting he get away with it, if the tour see it fit to punish him. Personally I'd get rid of crap like Twitter and Facebook altogether, I'm saying that merely going looking for it and to be offended are pretty annoying.

I'd rather someone just said, "here's what Elkington has said. What an idiot", rather than clambering for the electric chair.
Elkington basically admitted to being an idiot.

He's clearly already apologised, like the Garcia incident, it should be laid to rest.

by MustPuttBetter Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:43 pm

Diggers wrote:MPB, thousands of words have incurred a particular meaning over the years, often there is no real way of knowing why. Like I said earlier in the thread I think the term was invented by non Pakistanis to be used to blanket cover virtually every Asian on the planet, so hardly appealing really.

I'm not sure that's right at all Digs
I went to a school with a lot of Pakistani kids and we used to call them Pakki's, some of these guys are friends, and i never met one that had a problem with it.
I have never seen anyone refer to a chinese person as a Pakki, just people they assume are Pakistani. Granted this may sometimes include say an Indian but that doesn't make the term racist.
If i heard someone i thought was South African and used the term Saffer (which i think i've seen you use more than once) but it turns out they were from Zimbabwe, my ignorance doesn't make it racist?

by Diggers Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:47 pm

So you are saying you don't think person of Asian descent is generally used in an abusive way ?

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:49 pm

I think there is certainly a racist connotation with the "p" term, certainly in this country, and I don't think it's commensurate with calling someone a saffa, noggy (Norwegian, before Mac writes to The Guardian), Kraut etc.

If someone uses it and retracts it and apologises for it then that should be it. We shouldn't get people playing the victim.

by MustPuttBetter Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:54 pm

Diggers wrote:So you are saying you don't think person of Asian descent is generally used in an abusive way ?

Huh?

For clarification, i accept that the term Pakki does have racial connotations to it. People seem to on the whole accept that. What i'm saying is i've never understood why

by Bob_the_Job Mon 29 Jul 2013, 3:08 pm

When is shortening someone's nationality just a convenience and when is it a racial slur? When is mistaking the country someone is from a faux pas and when is it an insult?

What a surprise - it seems the members of this board disagree on these matters. I wonder how many are Pakistani or get mistaken for being Pakistani?

Well let's just test the PC temperature of the board.....

Q: What do you call a person of Pakistani heritage, living in the UK, who doesn't own a corner shop?

A: Doctor.

Racist or not? A racial slur or not?

by beninho Mon 29 Jul 2013, 3:30 pm

I am pretty surprised that some people do not understand why the P word is offensive to some people. Though I was brought up in a multi cultural area , so may have more understanding then some people. But still surprised.

Mr Bob the Job, I bet when you heard that joke the term, Pakistani Descent was not mentioned. And to be honest i would assume it should be Indian descent and indian shop owners..much more common in my experience then Pakistanis in both.

by McLaren Mon 29 Jul 2013, 3:34 pm

beninho wrote:I am pretty surprised that some people do not understand why the P word is offensive to some people. Though I was brought up in a multi cultural area , so may have more understanding then some people. But still surprised.

It is very surprising that people on here don't understand the offensiveness of the P word. It has always been pretty obvious to me and was brought up in a very un-multicultural area.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 3:37 pm

Always thought the p word was to Asia, what the n word is to African descent.

by Bob_the_Job Mon 29 Jul 2013, 3:38 pm

beninho wrote:I am pretty surprised that some people do not understand why the P word is offensive to some people. Though I was brought up in a multi cultural area , so may have more understanding then some people. But still surprised.

Mr Bob the Job, I bet when you heard that joke the term, Pakistani Descent was not mentioned. And to be honest i would assume it should be Indian descent and indian shop owners..much more common in my experience then Pakistanis in both.

Is it painful sitting on that fence? Racist - yes or no?

by beninho Mon 29 Jul 2013, 3:48 pm

Its racist as in the racial stereotype that all Pakistanis are either shop owners or Doctors. No different to saying Jews cannot reach the bottom of their pockets and have big noses. Or the Polish are all builders. Stereotypes, not necessarily a full on racist Joke. Its not a very good joke to be fair.

by Bob_the_Job Mon 29 Jul 2013, 3:57 pm

beninho wrote:Its racist as in the racial stereotype that all Pakistanis are either shop owners or Doctors. No different to saying Jews cannot reach the bottom of their pockets and have big noses. Or the Polish are all builders. Stereotypes, not necessarily a full on racist Joke. Its not a very good joke to be fair.

Interesting. I'd say it is differnet as shop owner and doctor are fairly aspirational careers. By your logic "Brazilians are really good at football" is racist. I don't think it is without a negative connotation.

It's a carp joke, but then I was told it by an English bloke. See what I did there?

by MustPuttBetter Mon 29 Jul 2013, 4:04 pm

Isn't it easy to say how 'surprised' you are that people don't 'understand' without actually offering an explanation.....

As I said plenty of people I grew up with used the term Pakki in a non offensive way. Sometimes in an offensive way too but that can be said of many words. I have never seen a Chinese or a Thai person referred to as a 'Pakki', only someone who is believed to be from Pakistan.

I assume no one can explain why the term should be racist? It just 'is'? Kop out

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 29 Jul 2013, 4:12 pm

McLaren wrote:It is very surprising that people on here don't understand the offensiveness of the P word. It has always been pretty obvious to me and was brought up in a very un-multicultural area.

Oh, for Heaven's sake. There you go again. The fact that some people in the World don't see this the same way as you or haven't ever stopped to consider whether the term 'P a k i' is racist (maybe they have better things to spend their time on) means you imply they're stupid/racist/pick-some-other-insult-to-fit-own-agenda-here. Accept it. Maybe you're accusing them of lying?

by **navyblueshorts** Mon 29 Jul 2013, 4:15 pm

Bob_the_Job wrote:
beninho wrote:Its racist as in the racial stereotype that all Pakistanis are either shop owners or Doctors. No different to saying Jews cannot reach the bottom of their pockets and have big noses. Or the Polish are all builders. Stereotypes, not necessarily a full on racist Joke. Its not a very good joke to be fair.

Interesting. I'd say it is differnet as shop owner and doctor are fairly aspirational careers. By your logic "Brazilians are really good at football" is racist. I don't think it is without a negative connotation.

It's a carp joke, but then I was told it by an English bloke. See what I did there?

Like what you're trying to illustrate here Bob but I'm not sure you're on to a winner.

by super_realist Mon 29 Jul 2013, 4:17 pm

In regard to offending people. some people are obviously off limits, but fat and ginger people are generally fair game. Laugh

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