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3rd Ashes test Old Trafford

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Post by Guest Sun 28 Jul 2013, 10:19 am

SQUAD

Squad Alastair Cook (capt), Joe Root, Jonathan Trott, Kevin Pietersen, Ian Bell, Jonny Bairstow, James Taylor, Matt Prior, Tim Bresnan, Stuart Broad, Graeme Swann, James Anderson, Chris Tremlett, Monty Panesar


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Post by guildfordbat Sun 28 Jul 2013, 10:46 am

Folks - sorry to have to say it again but Tremlett is still not yet ready for 5 day cricket.

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Post by hampo17 Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:05 am

Monty is a liability, his fielding is no where near good enough for a test match. As a lancy fan I am going to be incredibly biased by Simon Kerrigan would be a better option.

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Post by dummy_half Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:10 am

GB

Looks like the England selectors disagree with you - not that I think he is likely to play other than as injury cover, but he's clearly still well up the pecking order. Am slightly surprised, unless there was some agreement with Durham to allow Onions to be released for a CC match.

No surprise with Monty being called in to give options although I don't see him being picked unless its an obvious Bunsen from the start, and for Taylor to be included as cover for KP.

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Post by GSC Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:14 am

Tremlett will be carrying the drinks. Either Monty or Bres will be the 4th bowler
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Post by kingraf Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:31 am

Id go with Bresnan over Monty. The reasoning: I firmly believe that you dont change a winning team, and that Australia would have to improve vastly overnight to justify needing two spinners in your XI, when you have Swann and the oh so Talented Mr. Ripley (Root)
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Post by guildfordbat Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:33 am

dummy_half wrote:GB

Looks like the England selectors disagree with you - not that I think he is likely to play other than as injury cover, but he's clearly still well up the pecking order. Am slightly surprised, unless there was some agreement with Durham to allow Onions to be released for a CC match.
Dummy - a game of opinions but I do believe the selectors have goofed if they feel there is some chance of Tremlett playing at Old Trafford this week. A different matter if they just want him to increasingly feel "part of the gang".

I certainly wouldn't normally argue against a Surrey player's call up for a Test match. I can only recall doing it once before (as did many other regular Surrey supporters at the time and I would expect them to have similar misgivings as me over Tremlett). That was for Ian Salisbury - I'm pretty confident I didn't end up with too much egg on my face then ....

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Post by Duty281 Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:39 am

So we've dropped Finn and Onions for Panesar and Tremlett, whilst calling up Taylor as cover. Can't see us making any changes, unless KP is injured. Maybe if the pitch is particularly conductive to spin, Panesar will come in for Bresnan, but that's a bit of a long shot.

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Post by GSC Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:41 am

It's very conducive to spin
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Post by Mike Selig Sun 28 Jul 2013, 12:11 pm

When did Hampo become a mod? Congrats etc. obviously...

Disagree with you on Panesar though - whilst his fielding is poor to very poor, his bowling has shown that he is an excellent complement to Swann on a dry turning wicket and Kerrigan is not yet IMO ready for test cricket (promising though he is).

I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Panesar play at OT, given reports on the nature of the pitch, but it would be a gamble. Root of course can bowl some handy part-time spin.

Surprised to see Finn dropped completely, but I suspect it's to allow him to get some county action. Which suggests to me that Tremlett is not seriously being considered, which again means that IMO Panesar is, because an injury to one of the seamers would otherwise mean picking Tremlett which is surely a huge gamble.

Mind you the way Australia are batting...

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Post by alfie Sun 28 Jul 2013, 12:47 pm

I would see Finn as being released rather than dropped. He needs to bowl serious overs for his county and regain some rhythm and confidence. In the same way Onions must be sick of mixing drinks or whatever , and Tremlett is presumably included to be kept in touch with the squad with an eye to the Australian tour.
I trust they won't take the risk of just two seamers ? Even if this pitch does take a lot of spin it still won't be a subcontinental strip - and that is the only place Swann and Monty have been effective together. We have seen that Root can do a job when it spins - a better job than Trott could do as third seamer !  I would not expect them to shorten the batting either to accommodate a second spinner at Bairstow's expense.
I hear it may well rain a bit too ? I expect the same XI .

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Post by Corporalhumblebucket Sun 28 Jul 2013, 12:48 pm

Just for the record, I am as one with Guildfordbat when it comes to the possible selection of Tremlett for England.  No problem with him being drinks carrier, but can't see a lot of point.  Maybe it's more of a reminder to Finn, if he were to need one, that other bowlers are available...

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Sun 28 Jul 2013, 1:04 pm

Ton up for Taylor at Hove.
Although I reckon KP will be fit, it looks like his probable replacement is in decent form at least.

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Post by alfie Sun 28 Jul 2013, 1:20 pm

Good to see ! Keeps the pressure on Bairstow to perform to hold on to his spot , as well as suggesting a good reserve bat should be in place to tour later this year

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Post by guildfordbat Sun 28 Jul 2013, 1:29 pm

Hoggy_Bear wrote:Ton up for Taylor at Hove.
Although I reckon KP will be fit, it looks like his probable replacement is in decent form at least.
Hoggy - hmmm. If pushed to bet, my money would be on Pietersen not playing ....

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Post by Hoggy_Bear Sun 28 Jul 2013, 1:42 pm

guildfordbat wrote:
Hoggy_Bear wrote:Ton up for Taylor at Hove.
Although I reckon KP will be fit, it looks like his probable replacement is in decent form at least.
Hoggy - hmmm. If pushed to bet, my money would be on Pietersen not playing ....

I thought that noises coming from the camp were quite positive?
Not that that means anything, necessarily.
Don't think it'll be too much of a problem if he doesn't make it, although it does give us one less batsman who's liable to take the game away from the opposition, if that's what's needed. Can't see Taylor coming in and ripping an attack apart, but you never know.

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Post by GSC Sun 28 Jul 2013, 1:46 pm

I agree with Alfie and I said it last week that I thought there was no point having Finn in the squad. He needs overs for Middlesex.

Also give Tremlett a mental boost by showing hes still in the selectors thoughts
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Post by JDizzle Sun 28 Jul 2013, 2:06 pm

How many players can rip an attack apart though? Prior for England now? I can't think of anyone else in the side who can.

Pretty standard squad really, if Onions is going to play this series he would have done it at TB or will do at CLS. Tremlett won't play, barring an injury so as others of said it just for him to be in and around the squad again. I think the pitch would have to be obviously crumbling on day 1 for England to go with two spinners and even then they'd have to think very cleary about it as there is no way they go in with 5 bowlers.

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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Sun 28 Jul 2013, 7:49 pm

I think the Tremlett selection is more to have a proper look at him, and how he is doing before the series down under this winter, as he clearly would be a huge asset if fit.

Finn as said needs county overs, no point carrying drinks.

Can't see them going with Monty and Swann, despite Panesar's re-call

Good to see Taylor in some form. An interesting point was made on Cricket Writers on TV this morning. The player who wants KP to play the most is probably Jonny Bairstow. If Taylor comes in, and gets runs, and Bairstow doesn't, there becomes a Taylor/Bairstow debate when KP is back again
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Post by KP_fan Sun 28 Jul 2013, 7:54 pm

as a champion team with the series in the grip.....and aspiring for No.1 slot ( presumably)....Eng should play 2 spinners and 3 seamers...given that both their seamers broad and Bresnan are in run scoring form
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Post by msp83 Sun 28 Jul 2013, 8:11 pm

An interesting squad. Understandable with Taylor and Panesar coming in, a bit surprised at Tremlett being included. Perhaps they thought Finn and Onions would gain more by bowling in county cricket. Hope the management and the selectors are very clear with Finn on the channels of communication. If the track is a decent spinning one, then playing Monty won't be a bad option at all. I feel he'd enjoy the bounce that usually available at OT, and there will be greater advantage if there is added turn. Monty for Bresnan, and if there are any doubts whatsoever regarding Pietersen, then Taylor in though I'd hate to miss KP in action. But his long term fitness is more important, so no need to push him if he's not fully u[p to it.
What is the latest news from the Australian camp? Are they getting Warner back in England in time for the test? And I think Bird should come in for the injured Pattinson.

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Post by Shelsey93 Sun 28 Jul 2013, 11:15 pm

I must say I was a little surprised by England's selections today but there is some logic to them.

Taylor - Cover for Pietersen but will also remind Bairstow that he has work to do to be sure of a place in the winter.

Tremlett - Mostly an indicator that he is once again likely to tour Australia. But he is also better suited to OT than Onions and could therefore come in if Broad or Bresnan goes down.

Panesar - Old Trafford seems to suit Monty so England might consider two spinners if 1/ KP can't play 2/ The pitch looks likely to turn early on. The feeling floating around is that the pitch used for the Test won't be as favourable to spin as those which Kerrigan has been taking millions of wickets on in the last few weeks so the odds would be against those criteria being satisfied.

Onions - Surely remains a strong contender to play at Durham. Also possibly a feeling that he won't benefit from again being dragged to the training days before a Test he won't play in. Having said that if Anderson goes down he has to play, surely?

Finn - It seems like he's out of the picture for now. A shame as I don't think he's bowled horrifically. But a run in county cricket could do him some good (if it doesn't suddenly transpire he's injured, which is possible). I'm not sure the business with the run up has helped - at the start of the season it seemed as if he was keen on it but Gus Fraser less so. The decision was left to the man himself who seems to have abandoned the short run now.


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Post by gboycottnut Mon 29 Jul 2013, 1:07 am

If Australia have a new-ball attack of Harris and Bird, both of them can cause serious problems to England's batsmen.

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Post by Mike Selig Mon 29 Jul 2013, 2:03 am

Do Cowan's runs means he is likely to replace Rogers as Australia continue to chop and change? Khawaja surely has done enough to be retained at 3, or are Australia going to mess him up by moving him around as well.

The fact that Hughes opened ahead of Rogers suggests the latter is either not being considered anymore (which would be strange after 2 tests which suggest he can at least see off the new ball) or is safe in his place and didn't need the runs (which would equally be strange).

Bird's bowling performance probably gives him the edge over Starc, but if Australia pick Bird and Lyon that does considerably weakens the batting - Bird is a poor tail-ender, whilst Lyon is a reasonable number 11 who could bat 10 at a pinch, but these are the two worse batsmen in the Australian squad. I'm still not sure about Bird's natural length, which maybe a bit short for England (it is a more Australian length - even McGrath took one test to adapt to having to bowl that little bit fuller in England), but his consistency should be an asset. Personally I think with Siddle and Harris already, and Watson as back-up, Australia can afford to go for the wow factor with Mitch Starc - there is not really anything to lose. Starc can reverse it as well.

Australia's selection policy continues to be a complete muddle IMO.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 29 Jul 2013, 6:42 am

England's biggest worry aught to be Captain Cook.......have they already lost him to the pressures of captaincy ?
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Post by LondonTiger Mon 29 Jul 2013, 6:55 am

KP_fan wrote:England's biggest worry aught to be Captain Cook.......have they already lost him to the pressures of captaincy ?
Is that the best WUM you can come up with?

Need to try harder.

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 29 Jul 2013, 6:59 am

Onions and Finn need some bowling. Like Bairstow before this series they have had no opportunity to do anything in the middle for quite some time, while I reckon Tremlett is just being "re-integrated". If Anderson/Broad/Bresnan get injured before the test starts, I strongly suspect that one of Onions or Finn would be called back up ahead of Tremlett.

As to Monty, he is proven quality as a bowler, probably unlikely to play, but I feel much more comfortable with him than taking a risk on Kerrigan.

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Post by KP_fan Mon 29 Jul 2013, 7:19 am

LondonTiger wrote:
KP_fan wrote:England's biggest worry aught to be Captain Cook.......have they already lost him to the pressures of captaincy ?
Is that the best WUM you can come up with?

Need to try harder.

well actually it was meant to reflect that England's problems are rather limited.....only to Captain Cook not finding batting form....whihc often happens with captains.

with 80 odd runs in 4 innings......against a bolwing side that every one in the Eng side has milked so far.....and denying that there is a concern about Cooks' batting would be ridiculous.
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Post by liverbnz Mon 29 Jul 2013, 8:34 am

Conjuring a concern out of 4 innings is ridiculous KP_fan. Trott and KP have hardly set the world alight in this series either.

Have you seen Cook's average as captain by any chance?

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 29 Jul 2013, 9:30 am

is taylor going to start..

great innings(no doubts in my mind he would)

He needs to start

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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Mon 29 Jul 2013, 9:53 am

KP_fan wrote:England's biggest worry aught to be Captain Cook.......have they already lost him to the pressures of captaincy ?

I agree, I mean he is only averaging 60+ as Captain and its been a whole TWO tests since his last 100+ score and ONE whole test since he last passed 50.

It's a massive worry.Wink 

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Post by LondonTiger Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:06 am

mystiroakey wrote:is taylor going to start..

great innings(no doubts in my mind he would)

He needs to start

He will only start if Pietersen is unfit - for this test. Bairstow knows he needs to turn these 50s into hundreds if he is to stay in the team long term.

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Post by mystiroakey Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:17 am

Bairstow is doing ok. I am happy to leave him in the team.. The biggest concern for Taylor is bell. If bell had continued his dreadfull form I think Taylor would have become a shoe in for the next series..

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Post by KP_fan Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:33 am

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
KP_fan wrote:England's biggest worry aught to be Captain Cook.......have they already lost him to the pressures of captaincy ?

I agree, I mean he is only averaging 60+ as Captain and its been a whole TWO tests since his last 100+ score and ONE whole test since he last passed 50.

It's a massive worry.Wink 

he's had 2 bad series as captain....in NZ and now in Eng so far....that's half his career as a captain
offcourse if you don't want to....you can for now choose to ignore...it's not a massive worry...not yet

What else do you worry about as England......from amongst the established and expected ?

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Post by KP_fan Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:35 am

Australia can actually afford to play 2 spinners more than England.....because they have watson.....a pretty competent 3rd seamer.

England can play 2 spinners only if they have faith in the batting form or bresnan and Borad...but I doubt if Englnad would be so "adventurous"
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Post by Dorothy_Mantooth Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:40 am

KP_fan wrote:
Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:
KP_fan wrote:England's biggest worry aught to be Captain Cook.......have they already lost him to the pressures of captaincy ?

I agree, I mean he is only averaging 60+ as Captain and its been a whole TWO tests since his last 100+ score and ONE whole test since he last passed 50.

It's a massive worry.Wink 

he's had 2 bad series as captain....in NZ and now in Eng so far....that's half his career as a captain
offcourse if you don't want to....you can for now choose to ignore...it's not a massive worry...not yet

What else do you worry about as England......from amongst the established and expected ?


Injuries taking their toll on KP and Swann are far more of worry to me than Cook. If Cook is still averaging in the 20s at the end of the series then I will agree it will be a concern. But we are not even 1/2 way through the series yet, a series where its proved very difficult to bat early in the innings.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:42 am

Actually agree with KPfan to an extent. Not sure about the "pressures of captaincy" bit (thats hogwash) but he does seem to be a bit inconsistent at home, struggling vs quality attacks (Aus 2009, Pak 2010 and SA last year). Still a fine player though.

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Post by Stella Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:44 am

He's never been great against good seam/swing bowling in our conditions. Cook like any batsman likes consistent bounce and slow wickets.
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Post by mystiroakey Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:46 am

Yes cook is a bit out of touch. Thats been quite noticable a nd as a captain he totally messed up NZ away.

But cook has 9 lifes and deserves them. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone goes in and out of form.. Cooks bad form isnt anything like other players bad form- its still ok. and he is a clever learning captain! He will improve and I hope he has a long run as our captain

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:49 am

Stella wrote:He's never been great against good seam/swing bowling in our conditions.

Indeed.


Cook like any batsman likes consistent bounce and slow wickets.
Not necessarily as Trott, KP and Bell all have better records at home than abroad. Cook seems to be the exception in the England side. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as he steps up to the plate in conditions such as the subcontinent where others (read Bell) are not quite as good. KP has done well everywhere though.

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Post by ShankyCricket Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:51 am

mystiroakey wrote:Yes cook is a bit out of touch. Thats been quite noticable a nd  as a captain he totally messed up NZ away.

But cook has 9 lifes and deserves them. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone goes in and out of form.. Cooks bad form isnt anything like other players bad form- its still ok. and he is a clever learning captain! He will improve and I hope he has a long run as our captain
Don't think anyone is mad enough to even contemplate questioning his place. Just that he's struggling a bit ATM.

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Post by Duty281 Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:53 am

KP_fan wrote:England's biggest worry aught to be Captain Cook.......have they already lost him to the pressures of captaincy ?

Laugh Laugh Laugh 

Hilarious as always KP_fan.

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Post by Stella Mon 29 Jul 2013, 10:57 am

ShankyCricket wrote:
Stella wrote:He's never been great against good seam/swing bowling in our conditions.


Indeed.


Cook like any batsman likes consistent bounce and slow wickets.
Not necessarily as Trott, KP and Bell all have better records at home than abroad. Cook seems to be the exception in the England side. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing as he steps up to the plate in conditions such as the subcontinent where others (read Bell) are not quite as good. KP has done well everywhere though.

ALL players liek consistent bounce. Those three have better records at home because A. They are at home, and B, they would have scored runs on nice wickets. Some like Trott have a technique that adapts well to low bounce, but ask him what he prefers.
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Post by KP_fan Mon 29 Jul 2013, 11:25 am

Eng's batting and bowling seems to be becoming perfect for Indian pitches.....as is their confidence in using those pitches after the tour of India.
 
and no wonder we are seeing carbon copies of atleast the  Mohali/ Banglaore type of pitches...in this series so far.
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Post by GSC Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:36 pm

Its probably more to do with Australias lack of a good spinner and their batting lineups weakness to spin.
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Post by Mike Selig Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:48 pm

I would suspect it's more to do with the weather which has simply made dry pitches all around the country as far as I've seen than any master plan by England to produce these kind of pitches.

Whilst we're looking at very minor areas of concern for England... Prior hasn't fired all that much since his match-saving hundred?

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Post by Stella Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:51 pm

Prior looks out of form, and therefore looks short of confidence, seen in his 'hit my way out of form' innings.
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Post by Good Golly I'm Olly Mon 29 Jul 2013, 12:52 pm

Good point Mike.

Hard to make pitches that aren't dry, when there is no rain about. Last summer we had too much rain, this one so far, not enough
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Post by Guest Wed 31 Jul 2013, 4:17 pm

The only way Monty will play is if, KP isnt fit and they play prior at 6 and 5 bowlers.

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Post by GSC Wed 31 Jul 2013, 4:19 pm

Well that ain't happening
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