Irish Props.

So Ireland aren't exactly renowned for having a good scrum.. and tighthead prop is a huge problem, with the average at best Mike Ross filling the position.  He is solid, and easily the best option we have, but at 33 he isn't going to be around forever.  Our depth is pretty shocking here.

However if we look at our depth at loosehead prop, we have some fantastic options there, coming from each province.  Ireland are going to have at least 6 very good options (and a fair few with the potential to join that list) over the next few years, with the following:

Ulster: Tom Court, Callum Black, Paddy McAllister

Connacht: Denis Buckley

Munster: Dave Kilcoyne, James Cronin

Leinster: Cian Healy, Jack McGrath

I've likely missed out a few too.  All of these guys (with the exception of Denis Buckley, I don't know a whole lot about him but he is said to have a lot of potential) have looked very good, some established already of course.  Most of them are very young also, with a big career ahead of them for both province and country.  In particular, Jack McGrath, Dave Kilcoyne and James Cronin have made themselves known and look like fantastic options, and will push Cian Healy over the next few years.

What I want to know though is why we can produce so many talented loosehead props, both efficient in the scrum and deadly in the loose, yet at tighthead we are literally scraping the barrel for options?  And if any of our options do have the slightest bit of potential at scrum-time, they are utterly useless in open play (Declan Fitzpatrick anyone?).

Is there a chance that some of these guys could move to tighthead?  Paddy McAllister is one guy potentially getting moved to the tighthead position, but is this something we should take more seriously and look at other guys making the transition also?  Ricky Lutton also began as a loosehead and has looked very good for Ulster.  For international honours, most of these guys are going to be holding tackle bags at most anyway if they stick to loosehead.  Which is a shame, as many of them are very talented.

Would the fans support this idea, or find it stupid?  Obviously it is a risk, but at this point it might be necessary.

Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look like the best tighthead options for the future. Irelands U20's scrum beat up all teams in the JWC so things are not looking too bad.


The thing about tighthead prop is its a position that players don't break through until they're in their mid twenties usually and they're not near their peak until their late twenties.


Ireland have been putting a lot more effort into scrummaging over the last 3 or 4 years than they were a decade ago. It takes time for this effort to pay off but we're now seeing some top looseheads come through and I think we might see a few tightheads come through in the next year or two.

Whatever happened to Stephen Archer at 3?
 
I associate Kilcoyne most with doing a shift on the tighthead side and he seemed perfectly useful there from when I remember seeing him. Crossing over is not a silly idea at all. Two of Glasgow's props, Moray Low and Jon Welsh, swapped for a season and it was an interesting experiement. Welsh came out of it better - I think that tightheads do adapt to the loosehead side more easily than the other way round.

In England props often go to a championship side for their early twenties to build their experience. Cole went to Bedford I think and it really helped his scrummaging. What happens to the young guys? AIL? Provincial A? B&I? Are they getting many games at a reasonable level?

Ricky Lutton is a late comer, but is looking very good in the scrum at tighthead for Ulster.

profitius wrote:Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look like the best tighthead options for the future. Irelands U20's scrum beat up all teams in the JWC so things are not looking too bad.

From what I seen Ireland's scrum struggled against NZ and Australia.

What about Rodney Ah You? He's eligible soon, isn't he?

Cyril wrote:What about Rodney Ah You? He's eligible soon, isn't he?

Isn't Ah You also a loosehead?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Cyril wrote:What about Rodney Ah You? He's eligible soon, isn't he?

Isn't Ah You also a loosehead?

Yeah, he can play both, I think.

profitius wrote:Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look like the best tighthead options for the future. Irelands U20's scrum beat up all teams in the JWC so things are not looking too bad.


The thing about tighthead prop is its a position that players don't break through until they're in their mid twenties usually and they're not near their peak until their late twenties.


Ireland have been putting a lot more effort into scrummaging over the last 3 or 4 years than they were a decade ago. It takes time for this effort to pay off but we're now seeing some top looseheads come through and I think we might see a few tightheads come through in the next year or two.

Tadgh Furlong impressed me a lot when I saw him for the U20s. However they are very young and inexperienced. Will they be getting enough game-time when the time comes that Ross retires? Or if he is injured, what are we going to do? We might have to turn to converting looseheads, just like we did with Tom Court. Tom Court was a failure there, but other players such as Lutton are proving to be a success with the move. At provincial level at least.

Cyril wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Cyril wrote:What about Rodney Ah You? He's eligible soon, isn't he?

Isn't Ah You also a loosehead?

Yeah, he can play both, I think.

If he is eligible and better than the competition then he may be seen as an option, but only at tighthead. He is definitely behind many other looseheads. We might have a good few foreigners playing for Ireland soon enough it seems though.  

I think Jared Payne and CJ Stander are almost certainly going to be starters at some point, if the fact they aren't actually irish is ignored, and if they are selected on class alone. But that is for another discussion.

Cyril wrote:What about Rodney Ah You? He's eligible soon, isn't he?

Next month. And he can play both sides. Not sure he he is international level though. Possibly has the potential to be if he knuckled down.

HammerofThunor wrote:In England props often go to a championship side for their early twenties to build their experience. Cole went to Bedford I think and it really helped his scrummaging. What happens to the young guys? AIL? Provincial A? B&I? Are they getting many games at a reasonable level?

Good point. We don't have a 2nd tier pro league here. B&I is good but there are not enough opportunities for young Irish props. AIL is decent but only semi pro at the top level.

Rodney Ah You is one of the worst scrummagers in pro rugby. Connacht fans were in complete shock when he had his contract renewed last season. He is not an option I'm afraid.

I think Ricky Lutton is looking good, a real rough diamond we've unearthed- has the talent but hadn't really been in a professional rugby environment before and now he's coming along very well.

He's very good technically in the scrum if he doesn't have the power of the real top tightheads he will hold his own and has done well at Pro12 level.

Personally I think Ulster would do much better to try and give him and Declan Fitzpatrick gametime rather than try to develop Paddy McAllister as a tighthead. John Afoa hasn't played a minute of rugby this season and Ulsters scrum has been dominant. It's been the best part of our game with Fitzpatrick and Lutton to the fore- only real part of our game thats worked consistently so thats a big plus.

Try and convert McAllister and one of the two tightheads who have been scrummaging so well so far will be missing out on gametime as well as our scrum being weaker on the whole. Better idea to develop the tightheads we have than look for new ones imo, because the guys in the front row at Ulster are doing the business at the minute.

The Saint wrote:

profitius wrote:Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look like the best tighthead options for the future. Irelands U20's scrum beat up all teams in the JWC so things are not looking too bad.

From what I seen Ireland's scrum struggled against NZ and Australia.

At the JRWC? I think we were down to 7 when Oz got any nudge on us. Also we absolutely annihilated the NZ scrum in the pool game. That being said the latter was with chris Taylor at TH and he struggled badly during the 6N. Furlong looked a serious prospect but the fact we have seen little or nothing of him since doesn't bode well

The Saint wrote:

profitius wrote:Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look like the best tighthead options for the future. Irelands U20's scrum beat up all teams in the JWC so things are not looking too bad.

From what I seen Ireland's scrum struggled against NZ and Australia.

Acutally Ireland mullered the NZ scrum in the JWC despite losing the match. In the next round the NZ scrum got mullered again by England and they were knocked out.

Standulstermen wrote:

The Saint wrote:

profitius wrote:Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look like the best tighthead options for the future. Irelands U20's scrum beat up all teams in the JWC so things are not looking too bad.

From what I seen Ireland's scrum struggled against NZ and Australia.

At the JRWC? I think we were down to 7 when Oz got any nudge on us. Also we absolutely annihilated the NZ scrum in the pool game. That being said the latter was with chris Taylor at TH and he struggled badly during the 6N. Furlong looked a serious prospect but the fact we have seen little or nothing of him since doesn't bode well

Furlong has been suffering a bit with injury unfortunately. He is so young so he will need to be managed carefully. We should see him on the bench or starting for the A team this year.

A major problem with Leinster rugby is that they do not give the young guys enough of a chance. Just look at what Ulster and Connacht have done with the likes of Hendo, Henshaw, Olding, and Marmion.

The chap who was up against Furlong in the u20s WC for SA I think starts for the Stormers and Furlong held parity with him. He won't improve just sitting in the Academy.

Despite all the plus points for Schmidt and O'Connor this problem could be their biggest failing. Last season, in one match, we saw how good L.McGrath is and he hasn't featured since I don't think. Leavy is another who is ready to step up but yet we persist on playing Kev M, and Jenno, and we are probably going to see less of Murphy once Heaslip comes back. I hate saying it but I'd be sort of glad if SOB left for Racing and Jenno's out for a bit.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

The Saint wrote:

profitius wrote:Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong look like the best tighthead options for the future. Irelands U20's scrum beat up all teams in the JWC so things are not looking too bad.

From what I seen Ireland's scrum struggled against NZ and Australia.

Acutally Ireland mullered the NZ scrum in the JWC despite losing the match.  In the next round the NZ scrum got mullered again by England and they were knocked out.

You may have done. I had to switch between games and NZ were in control for most of that game, until Ireland took control by keeping hold of possession well (something they always do well under Ruddock) in the final quarter. I remember a certain big TH giving your boys in green a very hard time in the match against Aus.

In terms of the Oz game there was a massive size adv in the front row but we actually held them when it was 8 on 8. The TH was a lad called Boland (or Toland) from Connacht who was very small.

Against NZ it was very tight until just after half time when NZ ran in three tries when we were down to 14 (a justified but braindead YC for Tom Farrell)

The weird thing was the lad Furniss who was barely used during the RWC looked the best option in the 6N but Taylor took NZ apart and but for some very lenient refereeing at scrum time we could have beaten NZ. Their scrum was the worst I have seen at that level though.

It's very hard to tell. Certainly the previous year our scrum got hammered in the 6N and then with the addition of Furlong at the RWC it even gained parity (for the most part with England). As has been mentioned though furlong had an injury nearly all last season. We still need to see more of him though. How Michael Bent for instance makes squads I don't know.

In truth our options at TH aren't great and I woulda very nervous about seeing whoever we have up against Corbisiero in the 6N

I would argue that at the minute, Fitzpatrick is the best tighthead in Ireland, if he doesn't have to tackle Dan Parks that is  

Mike Ross was taken to the cleaners by Grant at the weekend there so Joe Schmidt has a big job in his hands I think. Fitzpatrick and McCallistar are constently injured so Lutton and McGrath look the best options at 3..... come back Buckley all is forgiven....

JackMcGrath is a LH rodders. Or do you mean McCall? He is also a LH though.

The new laws have changed the scrum to the extent that props who were good in the "hit" situation aren't necessarily as good in the "bind" one.

Mike Ross can absorb the hit but isn't dynamic enough under the new regime - Adam Jones isn't as effective either. Pre-conceived notions about players should be thrown out as the new scrum calls for a different type of player - if it's reffed right.

Standulstermen wrote:JackMcGrath is a LH rodders. Or do you mean McCall? He is also a LH though.

doh, you are right.... that just leaves Lutton then.

The Great Aukster wrote:The new laws have changed the scrum to the extent that props who were good in the "hit" situation aren't necessarily as good in the "bind" one.

Mike Ross can absorb the hit but isn't dynamic enough under the new regime - Adam Jones isn't as effective either. Pre-conceived notions about players should be thrown out as the new scrum calls for a different type of player - if it's reffed right.

Good points Aukster .... it seemed from watching Saturdays game that the defending side has the advantage too as they are able to time their drive when the attacking Hooker is going for the ball. I'm guessing the laws will favour genuinely big, powerful packs as the timing of the hit won't be such a leveller for lighter packs?

It was notable how much ballast we lost when nick disengaged to try and pick up as well.

The thing is though the difference between tight head and loose head is enormous at scrum time. The strain put on the TH side must be 25% more than the LH has to deal with.
So to compare a lighter 16.5 stone ball of muscle Healy to a chunky 20 stone Mike Ross is not a fair example. Given the extra weight most TH's carry combined with the extra energy expended in the scrum means that a TH will never be as involved around the park. Give any head coach a choice of a wobbly TH who carries ball a bit v a solid fat lad who does nowt else he will always choose Declan Fitzpatrick over Tony Buckley.

Submachine wrote:The thing is though the difference between tight head and loose head is enormous at scrum time. The strain put on the TH side must be 25% more than the LH has to deal with.
So to compare a lighter 16.5 stone ball of muscle Healy to a chunky 20 stone Mike Ross is not a fair example. Given the extra weight most TH's carry combined with the extra energy expended in the scrum means that a TH will never be as involved around the park. Give any head coach a choice of a wobbly TH who carries ball a bit v a solid fat lad who does nowt else he will always choose Declan Fitzpatrick over Tony Buckley.

Excellent post. I think you are even being generous with the 25% figure. This is also why TH can convert to LH, strenght isn't a problem they "just" have to adapt technically.

Is Dekkie "sicknote" Fitz out again? Hope not.

Nathan White qualifies at the end of the season and looks a sho in to the top 2 or 3 ths. despite being only 2 years younger than Ross.

If someone better emerges over the season then great.

Jamie Hagan will be worth keeping an eye on when he is back from injury.

Looks like the new scrum laws are suiting the shorter props more, esppecially the short tightheads. Their shorter bodies means that they have leverage on their side. Thats especially so now considering the amount of time they're pushing (which has increase) so it could be more energy sapping for the taller props. Props used the hit to gain an advantage before but they can't do that anymore.


So to sum up it looks like the balance has swung from the hit advantage to an endurance/technique advantage. I think we'll see more unathletic, short type tightheads in fashion that are their to be the cornerstone of the scrum only. I welcome it as it should leave more space around the field to exploit.


Martin Moore is a good size for a prop. Shorter than 6ft and he is 19st. Fitzpatrick, Lutton etc all look like a good shape for it.

Submachine wrote:The thing is though the difference between tight head and loose head is enormous at scrum time. The strain put on the TH side must be 25% more than the LH has to deal with.
So to compare a lighter 16.5 stone ball of muscle Healy to a chunky 20 stone Mike Ross is not a fair example. Given the extra weight most TH's carry combined with the extra energy expended in the scrum means that a TH will never be as involved around the park. Give any head coach a choice of a wobbly TH who carries ball a bit v a solid fat lad who does nowt else he will always choose Declan Fitzpatrick over Tony Buckley.

I'd say you are over a stone shy on cian healy there. perhaps less than a stone generous on Ross.

Submachine wrote:The thing is though the difference between tight head and loose head is enormous at scrum time. The strain put on the TH side must be 25% more than the LH has to deal with.
So to compare a lighter 16.5 stone ball of muscle Healy to a chunky 20 stone Mike Ross is not a fair example. Given the extra weight most TH's carry combined with the extra energy expended in the scrum means that a TH will never be as involved around the park. Give any head coach a choice of a wobbly TH who carries ball a bit v a solid fat lad who does nowt else he will always choose Declan Fitzpatrick over Tony Buckley.

An interesting post.  A scrum should naturally pivot through the hookers right shoulder.  If you take a line from that point, you would have the 1 LH, 1 Hooker, 1.5 full locks, 1 flanker and a number 8's momentum driving onto that shoulder or to the left of that shoulder.  Onto that shoulder or to the right of that shoulder you would have 1 TH, 0.5 Hooker, 1 lock, 1 flanker and 0.5 of a number 8's momentum. Obviously I'm doubling up on the pressure going through the right shoulder of the hooker so you could take out 0.5 hooker, 0.5 lock and 0.5 of the number 8 as that all directly hits the right shoulder which is the pivot point.  So what does that mean;

1 LH, 0.5 hooker, 1 lock, 1 flanker, 0.5 number 8 = 1 TH, 0.5 lock, 1 flanker

So a TH with 1/2 a lock behind him has to match a LH, 1/2 a hooker, 1/2 a lock and 1/2 a number 8 in a scrum in order for it to stay steady. That the TH is closer to the pivot point (hookers right shoulder) than the LH, you could even skew the figures even more for simple law of the lever effect or front rows driving at non-straight angles.

Even at a simple level the TH has a whole LH on his right shoulder and half a hooker on his left shoulder.  A LH only has to deal with half a TH.  And that is before you bring the force of the rest of the pack into play.

No wonder the TH has to carry more bulk in order to counteract the pure setup disadvantage in a scrum.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Submachine wrote:The thing is though the difference between tight head and loose head is enormous at scrum time. The strain put on the TH side must be 25% more than the LH has to deal with.
So to compare a lighter 16.5 stone ball of muscle Healy to a chunky 20 stone Mike Ross is not a fair example. Given the extra weight most TH's carry combined with the extra energy expended in the scrum means that a TH will never be as involved around the park. Give any head coach a choice of a wobbly TH who carries ball a bit v a solid fat lad who does nowt else he will always choose Declan Fitzpatrick over Tony Buckley.

An interesting post.  A scrum should naturally pivot through the hookers right shoulder.  If you take a line from that point, you would have the 1 LH, 1 Hooker, 1.5 full locks, 1 flanker and a number 8's momentum driving onto that shoulder or to the left of that shoulder.  Onto that shoulder or to the right of that shoulder you would have 1 TH, 0.5 Hooker, 1 lock, 1 flanker and 0.5 of a number 8's momentum. Obviously I'm doubling up on the pressure going through the right shoulder of the hooker so you could take out 0.5 hooker, 0.5 lock and 0.5 of the number 8 as that all directly hits the right shoulder which is the pivot point.  So what does that mean;

1 LH, 0.5 hooker, 1 lock, 1 flanker, 0.5 number 8 = 1 TH, 0.5 lock, 1 flanker

So a TH with 1/2 a lock behind him has to match a LH, 1/2 a hooker, 1/2 a lock and 1/2 a number 8 in a scrum in order for it to stay steady. That the TH is closer to the pivot point (hookers right shoulder) than the LH, you could even skew the figures even more for simple law of the lever effect or front rows driving at non-straight angles.

Even at a simple level the TH has a whole LH on his right shoulder and half a hooker on his left shoulder.  A LH only has to deal with half a TH.  And that is before you bring the force of the rest of the pack into play.

No wonder the TH has to carry more bulk in order to counteract the pure setup disadvantage in a scrum.

Cheers for the clarifications band. A far more succinct description. Sorry for my stat filled meandering ramblings.

SirBurger wrote:Jamie Hagan will be worth keeping an eye on when he is back from injury.

The London Irish starting TH, Aukila picked up a bad injury at the weekend. I wish him a speedy recovery but he could be out for the season. I think Hagan may get what he wished for when leaving Leinster i.e regular gametime. Realistically he is now their only experienced specialist TH.
He is just coming back from an injury picked up in pre season against Munster. could be the making of him.

gleesonisgod wrote:A major problem with Leinster rugby is that they do not give the young guys enough of a chance. Just look at what Ulster and Connacht have done with the likes of Hendo, Henshaw, Olding, and Marmion.

The chap who was up against Furlong in the u20s WC for SA I think starts for the Stormers and Furlong held parity with him. He won't improve just sitting in the Academy.

Despite all the plus points for Schmidt and O'Connor this problem could be their biggest failing. Last season, in one match, we saw how good L.McGrath is and he hasn't featured since I don't think. Leavy is another who is ready to step up but yet we persist on playing Kev M, and Jenno, and we are probably going to see less of Murphy once Heaslip comes back. I hate saying it but I'd be sort of glad if SOB left for Racing and Jenno's out for a bit.

This is a great post actually. Very true, it seems as if the younger players aren't trusted, even if they might look ready.

Submachine wrote:

SirBurger wrote:Jamie Hagan will be worth keeping an eye on when he is back from injury.

The London Irish starting TH, Aukila picked up a bad injury at the weekend. I wish him a speedy recovery but he could be out for the season. I think Hagan may get what he wished for when leaving Leinster i.e regular gametime. Realistically he is now their only experienced specialist TH.
He is just coming back from an injury picked up in pre season against Munster. could be the making of him.

Although it is very unfortunate for Aukila, that is good news for Jamie Hagan and Ireland. I hope he takes this opportunity.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Is Dekkie "sicknote" Fitz out again? Hope not..

He came off injured but hopefully he'll be back for next week!  

With the new scrum laws, from an Ireland point of view I'll be keeping a close eye on Fitzpatrick, Lutton, Moore, Archer, John Ryan and Hagan. Its not impossible for one or two of those to come good.