A Look Back at Mayweather-Alvarez: Part One by Thomas Hauser

Can't see Truss being happy with this:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/articles-frontpage/17280-a-look-back-at-mayweather-alvarez-part-one

"Also, as great a fighter as Mayweather is, there’s one flaw on his resume. He has consistently avoided the best available opposition.

A fighter doesn’t have to be bloodied and knocked down and come off the canvas to prove his greatness. A fighter can also prove that he has the heart of a legendary champion by testing himself against the best available competition.

Mayweather has done neither.

Floyd said earlier this month, “I push myself to the limit by fighting the best.”

That has all the sincerity of posturing by a political candidate.

Mayweather has some outstanding victories on his ring record. But his career has been marked by the avoidance of tough opponents in their prime.

There always seems to be someone who Mayweather is ducking. The most notable example was his several-year avoidance of Manny Pacquiao. Bob Arum (Pacquiao’s promoter) might not have wanted the fight. But Manny clearly did. And it appeared as though Floyd didn’t.

Mayweather also steered clear of Paul Williams, Antonio Margarito, and Miguel Cotto in their prime. He waited to fight Cotto until Miguel (like Shane Mosley) was a shell of his former self. Then Floyd made a show of saying that he’d fight Cotto at 154 pounds so Miguel would be at his best. But when Sergio Martinez offered to come down to 154, Floyd said that he’d only fight Martinez at 150 (an impossible weight for Sergio to make).

Thus, Frank Lotierzo writes, “Mayweather has picked his spots in one way or another throughout his career. Floyd got over big time on Juan Manuel Marquez with his weigh-in trickery at the last moment. He fought Oscar De La Hoya and barely won when Oscar was a corpse. Shane Mosley was an empty package when he finally fought him seven years after the fight truly meant anything. As terrific as Mayweather is, he's not the Bible of boxing the way he projects himself as being. He came along when there were some other outstanding fighters at or near his weight. Yet, aside from the late Diego Corrales, he has never met any of them when the fight would have confirmed his greatness. It would be great to write about Mayweather and laud all that he has accomplished as a fighter without bringing up these inconvenient facts. But it can't be done if you're being intellectually honest.”

“Mayweather,” Lotierzo continues, “wouldn't be the face of boxing today if there was an Ali, Leonard, De La Hoya, or Tyson around. But they're long gone. Give him credit for being able to make a safety-first counter-puncher who avoided the only fight fans wanted him to deliver [into] the face of what once was the greatest sport in the world.”"

Is this guy serious? Ducked Pac? Take the effin test. Simple. He offerred SSM a fight way back when and SSM didn't want it. A corpse of Oscar? So what did Pac fight? At least he fought Oscar when he was champ at his weight. Pointless article.

But when you fight a corpse, youre expected to demolish it. Only one did...

mayweather should not be immune to criticism when it comes to pac and possibly even Williams at a stretch. but its not worth reading it from a desparate narrow minded journalist like this

kingraf wrote:But when you fight a corpse, youre expected to demolish it. Only one did...

Oscar was rated 1 at the weight. Plus at a stretch the corpse had flesh on bones. Pac fought a skeleton. A corpse who lost weight.

The fight was more or less done until Pac refused to take the tests. What irked me were the excuses which were patently false. Arum did not want to lose his goose.

Poorly balanced article

I find it amazing that Mayweather has talked, talked and talked so much that he actually has people believing that he never put up any obstacles between himself and a fight with Pacquiao, and acting as if he moved heaven and earth trying to make it happen.

Hauser goes a little over the top, but his suggestion that Floyd is a decent con artist to go along with his being an outstanding fighter carries weight.

I don't see how taking strict drug tests is an obstacle to stop the richest fight in history. I would have thought that was a bonus.

Amazing that Floyd never wanted that kind of testing for all those opponents who weren't as good as Pacquiao. Even more amazing that he then said many times that Manny's rise through the weights was overplayed by the media and that he got too much credit for it, Floyd citing that he himself weighed 105 lb at the age of sixteen and also ended up winning world titles at Light-Middle, the only difference being that Manny turned pro and fought for world titles at a younger age, thus giving the impression that he was a one-off when, in fact, Floyd managed the same.

So hang on Floyd, why have you also said that Manny's rise through the divisions is suspicious? Should you have doubts cast over your achievements, too? Which one is it?

I don't think Floyd himself knew. I don't think he knows now, to be honest. The man is a prat, albeit an unbelievably talented and successful one. Have to say it also gets me when people stop at the drug testing issue, as if that was Floyd's only condition. When it looked as if a compromise might have been reached there, it was money. No chance of a 50:50, I should keep all the PPV revenue, blah blah blah. Then when Pacquiao stated that he'd be willing to take the low end of the purse, the line changed to "Ok, but only if you ditch Arum and Top Rank because I won't work with them."

"Yellow midget chump, easy pay day, he's been beaten already and knocked out whereas I've never lost" etc and all that jazz that Mayweather spent about three years solid spouting. You'd think that if Pacquiao was such easy work he'd have actually got in the ring at some point to fight him and waltzed his way to the easiest $60 million in history, but apparently not!

I'm not under any illusion that Arum and Top Rank haven't put up barriers too, mind you. I just think arguing that Floyd is an innocent party is an insult to people's intelligence, or at least it should be.

The disappointing thing is it does have a lot of truth.

There were rumours of paq juicing. So to prove them wrong he should have taken the tests. His denial added fuel to the fire. I don't buy the notion that Floyd wanted to clean up boxing but I can't see how drug test can scupper a fight.

azania wrote:There were rumours of paq juicing.  So to prove them wrong he should have taken the tests. His denial added fuel to the fire. I don't buy the notion that Floyd wanted to clean up boxing but I can't see how drug test can scupper a fight.

There were no 'rumours' until the Mayweather clan started sounding off about it. Unlike Commander Vander, Mosley etc, there also isn't any evidence, hard or circumstantial, which reflects badly on Pacquiao either. At best, the evidence seems to be simply that he was better than anyone Mayweather had ever fought before or has fought since, and that's all Floyd, Uncle Roger and Floyd Sr. needed.

As I (and Floyd, not least of all!) said, Mayweather has spanned the same weight classes at similar ages as Pacquiao, the difference being he wasn't punching for pay earlier. If Pacquiao's career up until 2010 is suspicious, then by proxy Mayweather's must at least have a sniff of suspicion around it too? Either that, or neither of them does. Once more, what excuse is there for all the other nonsense Floyd set down as his 'terms' on top of the testing, which always seems to be omitted?

Although it was tiresome about three years back when the whole embarrassing Manny-Floyd, needles, testing, who ducked who etc saga was dominating all boxing forums, publications and broadcasts, at least most people seemed to be balanced in their appraisals of the whole thing then and acknowledge that there was blame on both sides. Now, the fashion seems to be to wistfully eulogise over Mayweather and carefully airbrush out the whole episode or, if it does crop up, to say that he was desperate for the fight and had no part in it never materialising, usually before stating that it doesn't matter anyway because he's always been better than Manny and Manny's recent form shows that a fight between them in 2010 would have meant nothing, so anyone who criticises Mayweather over the issue is just a hater.

Paulie Mallignaggi was one who was making noises about Paq. The difference is that Floyd went through the weights slower and what looks more naturally whereas Paq simply jumped from FW to LW to WW in what seemed a short space of time.

But why add fuel to the fire by making silly excuses not to take the test. Scared of needles when you have so many tats? Please! Floyd asing for tests may have been designed to get under Paq's skin, but to refuse was ridiculous.

There was also rumours of Floyd and PEDs he did not want to fight Manny and pretty much everyone knows it, it was almost funny when Manny did agreed to his drug testing then the problem became the shares of the purse. Reality the fight was never gonna happen because Manny was too big a risk to Floyd precious 0.
In fairness to Floyd though less a fortnight after probably his best and biggest win he deserves more credit than the hatchet job done on him by Thomas Hauser whether most of it is true or not, just for now an article crediting him for a sublime performance against a top fighter might have been more appropriate

The problem I have with the Floyd issue is it gets so tribal and polarised where it is almost impossible to be just a fan of him. You either have to proclaim him the greatest ever and refuse to even accept the possibility there are valid criticisms of the man or he is a ducker, a charlatan and a fraud (albeit a talented one).

Will avoid the whole issue of the Manny thing which Chris has more than adequately covered but do think the whole issue around Mosley and Cotto and some of the guys Floyd could have faced at welter is a little more complex than they often portray it. Remember when Floydfirst started making noises about facing Oscar it was commonly dismissed as fanciful due to the weight disparity. As such when Floyd moved to welter his main aim were seeing how he could handle the weight and to legitimise the Oscar fight in the paying public's minds. Given this Baldy and Judah fitted the bill. Both well enough known to register with fans but neither likely to upset the apple cart as Mosley or Cotto could potentially do.

Realise people are going to read that and say "so he ducked them" but for me that is niave. Oscar was Mr PPV at the time and was the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for Floyd, anyone thinking he was going to take the kind of opponent that could blow that really needs to wise up to realities. Should also be noted for a lot of this period Shane was also in a run of awful form and pottering about at light middle struggling with the likes of David Estrada. Trust me nobody was chomping at the bit for him to fight Floyd during that period.

However I will say Floyd did not help himself with his pathetic and unnecessary "retirement" which in reality was just wasted time, suspect had he been active during this period he could have fought and beat a lot of the guys who commonly provide the ammunition for those that want to deride him and his achievements.

hogey wrote:There was also rumours of Floyd and PEDs he did not want to fight Manny and pretty much everyone knows it, it was almost funny when Manny did agreed to his drug testing then the problem became the shares of the purse. Reality the fight was never gonna happen because Manny was too big a risk to Floyd precious 0.
In fairness to Floyd though less a fortnight after probably his best and biggest win he deserves more credit than the hatchet job done on him by Thomas Hauser whether most of it is true or not, just for now an article crediting him for a sublime performance against a top fighter might have been more appropriate

Seriously do we have to read bolox like this and this dude calls others wum?

If there were rumours why insist on strict tests? Do you actually think before posting?

I think the problem with Floyd is that many are proclaiming him the best ever and the fans of the holy Sugar are fighting back by applying terms they wouldn't with the hoky one or others of the sepia generation.

Wasn't so long ago on here you claimed Robinson was the greatest ever Az. Have to say if you are penalising him for inactivity you are being incredibly harsh.

I changed my opinion. Admittedly I was swayed by the sycophantic fawning written about him. Then I decided to use my own eyes.

azania wrote:

hogey wrote:There was also rumours of Floyd and PEDs he did not want to fight Manny and pretty much everyone knows it, it was almost funny when Manny did agreed to his drug testing then the problem became the shares of the purse. Reality the fight was never gonna happen because Manny was too big a risk to Floyd precious 0.
In fairness to Floyd though less a fortnight after probably his best and biggest win he deserves more credit than the hatchet job done on him by Thomas Hauser whether most of it is true or not, just for now an article crediting him for a sublime performance against a top fighter might have been more appropriate

Seriously do we have to read bolox like this and this dude calls others wum?

If there were rumours why insist on strict tests? Do you actually think before posting?

Irrespective of anyone's position on this issue, that's at best, a naive take az. As if there isn't a long history of ped users professing their innocence and taking tests they know they can pass, due to masking or timing of the tests. When mayweather volunteers for year round vada testing a la donaire  he can take some moral high ground. As long as tries to dictate what tests and when, it proves nothing about his own 'cleanliness'.

Personally, I think pacs excuses were lame and added to doubts about him, but it says absolutely nothing about whether mayweather is clean or not.

We are not talking about urine samples but random tests including blood tests which are not so easy to mask. I don't think for a second that Floyd was concerned about boxing. More about getting inside pacs head. When pac refused the fight never had a chance of happening. Then the nonsense about cut off points etc.

The only and best way to catch cheats is to have random tests.

Floyd claimed he dislocated his elbow during the Alvarez fight... Compubox stats show that his punch output didnt dramatically fall during the latter rounds of the fight... So he fought through the pain barrier... Xylocaine helps a lot with that...

He claimed to have broken his hand vs Guerrero as well, once again Compubox didnt show any slow in his flow... Its almost like he cant feel the pain... I mean, its probably co-incidental that he fights in the one state Xylocaine isnt banned...

Of course what I typed is purely conjecture, but since Pacquiao has been crucified using conjecture... Goose. Gander

Difference is that it isn't banned. Maradona played with his legs full of cortisone to kill the pain. Most players do also.

Uh... yeah... it is... in 49 out of 50 states... Take a guess where it isnt banned.

azania wrote:We are not talking about urine samples but random tests including blood tests which are not so easy to mask. I don't think for a second that Floyd was concerned about boxing.  More about getting inside pacs head. When pac refused the fight never had a chance of happening.  Then the nonsense about cut off points etc.

Sounds like you're suggesting floyd was putting up obstacles az

Mind games are not an obstacle.

Demanding drug tests, on your own terms, in a contract, turns those mind games into an obstacle.

Anyway kingraf, nevada's just floyd's home, he likes fighting in front of his fans. Shame Dallas isn't in Nevada, otherwise the fight could have happened in the cowboys stadium after all.

Come on. By his mind games floyd accidentally hit on something very important. Do you support random vada type tests?

"On May 20, 2012, a rumor filtered through the drug-testing community that Mayweather had tested positive on three occasions for an illegal performance-enhancing drug.

More specifically, it was rumored that Mayweather’s “A” sample had tested positive on three occasions and, after each positive test, USADA had found exceptional circumstances in the form of inadvertent use and gave Floyd a waiver. This waiver, according to the rumor, negated the need for a test of Floyd’s “B” sample. And because the “B” sample was never tested, a loophole in USADA’s contract with Mayweather and Golden Boy allowed the testing to proceed without the positive “A” sample results being reported to Mayweather’s opponent or the Nevada State Athletic Commission (which had jurisdiction over the fights).

In late-May, Pacquiao’s attorneys heard the rumor. On June 4, 2012, they served document demands and subpoenas on Mayweather, Mayweather Promotions, Golden Boy and USADA calling for the production of all documents that related to PED testing of Mayweather for the Shane Mosley, Victor Ortiz and Miguel Cotto fights.

The documents were not produced. There was a delay in the proceedings while Floyd spent nine weeks in the Clark County Detention Center after pleading guilty to charges of domestic violence and harassment. Upon his release from jail on August 2nd, settlement talks heated up.

On September 25, 2012, a stipulation of settlement ending the defamation case was filed with the court. The parties agreed that the terms of settlement would be kept confidential. Prior to the agreement being signed, two sources with detailed knowledge of the proceedings told this writer that Mayweather’s initial monetary settlement offer was “substantially more” than Pacquiao’s attorneys had expected it would be and an agreement in principle was reached soon afterward.

As part of the settlement, the Mayweathers and Mayweather Promotions issued a statement that read: “Floyd Mayweather Jr., Floyd Mayweather Sr., Roger Mayweather and Mayweather Promotions wish to make it clear that they never intended to claim that Manny Pacquiao has used or is using any performance-enhancing drugs nor are they aware of any evidence that Manny Pacquiao has used performance-enhancing drugs. Manny Pacquiao is a great champion and no one should construe any of our prior remarks as claiming that Manny Pacquiao has used performance-enhancing drugs.”"

http://www.maxboxing.com/news/max-boxing-news/the-ped-mess-part-one

Pure speculation Haz, not like the rock solid evidence the Mayweathers had!

What evidence?

You're such a Pactard haz.

And yes az, I support random testing. By random I mean the tests are random, not that the requirement for testing is randomly applied by floyd mayweather.

Would you like to see floyd fight outside of Vegas?

As far as I'm aware Floyd doesn't control vada.

Great story haz.

milkyboy wrote:You're such a Pactard haz.

And yes az, I support random testing. By random I mean the tests are random, not that the requirement for testing is randomly applied by floyd mayweather.

Would you like to see floyd fight outside of Vegas?

I'm no Pacquiao fan. Odd that you assume I'm one or the other. I'm a fan of neither.

Uh... Haz, his word is law!?

Funny Az, you type Vada, yet the story types in USADA...

And I see the term Pactard has been used, Yawn...

Again, Floyd must be Superman, because he threw 168 jabs from rounds seven to twelve, landing 83... with a dislocated elbow. Nothing suspicious there...

USADA/VADA one of them was asked. The one with the move rigorous testing regimen was asked.

Floyd had a dislocated elbow? And Tyson had a broken back.

Rog said PAC was on the A-Sides.

The coincidental thing is that Trussy is always quoting Hauser as an authority.

Nothing new in the article. Floyd is a cherry picker and for that reason will never be an ATG Top 20.

Jesus. I'll use 15 smileys next time to make the pactard line a bit more obvious. Hadn't realised I was being so subtle.

Az, the randomness was that floyd was suddenly deciding to ask for testing for the pac fight.

Though you could argue that if he's so insistent on fighting in Vegas he should accept their chicken do dah testing procedures.

Strongback wrote:Rog said PAC was on the A-Sides.

The coincidental thing is that Trussy is always quoting Hauser as an authority.

Nothing new in the article.  Floyd is a cherry picker and for that reason will never be an ATG Top 20.

Only experts like Hauser will think that. 32 out of 34 board posters disagree so Hauser must be a jerk, right?

Like I said, its all conjecture, but youre only too willing to crucify Pacquiao with as much evidence as I have against Floyd

Sorry Milky - Irony never EVER translates well online wothout visual cues.

Hauser will write the history book on it.

This board has a Mayweather fetish which is kind of disturbing if you think about it.

It also has a problem with Louis. Go to other boards and claim Floyd is greater than Louis and you get hounded out.

Looking at the career parallels of Floyd and Emmanuelle, something struck as quite odd...

Manny started his career at 106, and has fought all the way up to a catchweight of 151lbs - a gain of 45lbs....

Floyd started at 130lbs, and is now LMW champ - a 24lbs gain.

With that in mind, its quite ironic that Pacquiao was "found out" at 147 (31lbs above his starting point), and yet asking Floyd to fight at MW (30lbs above his) is nothing more than trying to see Floyd lose.

I dont particularly feel excited by the prospect of Floyd fighting at 160, but the double standards are bleedingly obvious.

kingraf wrote:Sorry Milky - Irony never EVER translates well online wothout visual cues.

Seemingly so, kingy as it was lost on haz too!

Strongback wrote:

This board has a Mayweather fetish which is kind of disturbing if you think about it.

As is often the case strongy. It's not about the number of people, it's about how loudly they shout. Most sensible posters on here have a balanced view on mayweather. The more vocal ones have extreme views, or are at least highly intolerant of a counter perspective. It seems like a war zone, but it's the same combatants in groundhog day.

Some of the most respected posters have Mayweather in the Top 10 ever.

The most sensible thing I have read on here is Floyd can never be rated above your man Ray Leonard.

The issue of weight isnt straightforward. Mayweathers frame doesnt allow him to get much higher than 150lbs. He levelled out as a welterweight. Pacquiao turned pro young and was able to grow into his frame more.

Historically in boxing weigh ins were on the same day as the fight so two welterweights fighting could expect that there wouldnt be a massive amount of weight differance between them. Nowadays with weigh ins the day before fighters can really exploit the weight categories. Mayweather is spotting an awful lot of weight in the ring if he fights above welterweight because his opponent can hit the weight limit by not eating or drinking and sweating down to make a limit that isnt really a fair reflection of what he will weigh at the time of the fight. A lightweight or a welterweight or a middleweight in the past would not usually be at such a disadvantage. The fighters nowadays would be in different weight classes if they had to weigh in on the same day. Alvarez would be a full middleweight and Mayweather a welterweight. Martinez might even be a light heavyweight.

Floyd threads can quite quickly turn into a war zone... If I wasnt booked off work, I wouldnt bother, but having nowhere else to go, I like getting stuck in every now and then...