Who do you blame for Mike Tyson's demise ?

by TRUSSMAN66 Mon May 16, 2011 11:49 pm

First topic message reminder :

1. Cus D'amato's obsessive desire to get another heavy champ...overlooking personality traits and faults on the way..
2. Jacobs and Cayton's handling of their million dollar baby..
3. The Roper's...
4. Don king.
5. Mike Tyson himself..

Me I've got alot of sympathy for Mike used from start to finish......

For me all the above were in some way at fault however I do believe Cus and the Managers cared at some basic level and it was the Roper's who for me bear most responsibility..For removing Mike's comfort zone.

by Rowley Tue May 17, 2011 1:26 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You have no way of knowing what alcoholics/addicts go through and the situations that caused their plight yet you write them off..

Physician heal thyself...

Again Truss, how do you know I have no idea. Do you know if I have any experience of dealing with substance abuse or whether I have had to watch friends suffer such problems. You read a few posts of mine on here and assume I have no knowledge. Is an assumption based on nothing other than speculation.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 1:29 am

No one who has close experience of substance abuse would write these people off....

So yes I can tell you haven't. got experience..Juries do convict on circumstantial evidence you know...

You lack compassion and I expected better from you..

It's a good job some of us have it.

by Rowley Tue May 17, 2011 1:34 am

Is it not equally as possible as Chris argued earlier that I have a good deal of experience of the devastation these things cause and so can feel little to no sympathy for someone who has suffered such problems and despite having innumerable opportunities to turn things round has failed to act on them.

For what it's worth I have plenty of experience of people close to me suffering through various substance abuse problems but as I have said on countless occasions the details of this are none of yours or anyone else on heres business

by **88Chris05** Tue May 17, 2011 1:37 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No one who has close experience of substance abuse would write these people off....

So yes I can tell you haven't. got experience..Juries do convict on circumstantial evidence you know...

You lack compassion and I expected better from you..

It's a good job some of us have it.

How in the name of Christ has Rowley (or anyone else aside form Coxy's brash statement) "written off" substance abusers? So because people feel that maybe, just maybe, Mike Tyson should take some responsibility for his own actions, we're all lacking compassion for totally unrelated people with addictions and mental ailments?

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue May 17, 2011 1:41 am

He was a vulnerable young kid but when he turned pro and was World champion he was a young man and regardless of his upbringing has to take responsibility for his own downfalls.

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 1:43 am

It a simply case of Truss losing the argument on Tyson so he evade questions directly about him and switches the argument to people that have suffered because of substance abuse.

Truss does want to go back to the original question because he is plainly wrong so he will continue down this road of sanctimonious self righteousness to make himself feel that he was right.

by Guest Tue May 17, 2011 1:44 am

88Chris05 wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:No one who has close experience of substance abuse would write these people off....

So yes I can tell you haven't. got experience..Juries do convict on circumstantial evidence you know...

You lack compassion and I expected better from you..

It's a good job some of us have it.

How in the name of Christ has Rowley (or anyone else aside form Coxy's brash statement) "written off" substance abusers? So because people feel that maybe, just maybe, Mike Tyson should take some responsibility for his own actions, we're all lacking compassion for totally unrelated people with addictions and mental ailments?

TRUSS does like to tar everyone with the same brush..usually when he's accusing them of tarring everyone with the same brush.

Of course I do like to hear about the lad who had his house and education paid for claiming kinship with the poor unfortunates who've fallen prey to substance abuse. I'm sure TRUSS nodded sagely as they all talked about their batles with the demon Reisling!
Reminds me of that hypocrite Blair trying to garner sympathy from the public by claiming he had a "drink problem"

by Valero's Conscience Tue May 17, 2011 1:45 am

88Chris05 wrote:Tyson, without doubt. Some would have us believe he's the only boxer in history to come from a grim background and be surrounded by shady characters.

The biggest red herring of the lot in Tyson's 'fall from grace' is Don King. There's this daft idea that floats around that, before King came in to the picture, Tyson was a well-balanced individual, an upstanding citizen of mankind without fault or a care in the world, which we all know is absolute nonsense. Those who shift the 'blame' to King are simply looking for yet another excuse for the most protected soul in boxing (Tyson) and see King as an easy target due to his other misdemeanours. Ironically, so many of those who do just that are happy to bang on about how Meyran 'robbed' Tyson against Douglas and are also happy to ignore Tyson undeservedly leapfrogging more worthy contenders for the WBC and WBA titles after his release from prison, two elements which were totally devised by King and only possible due to the shady nature of his work. Can't have it both ways.

Ultimately, Tyson has to take the responsibility for his own actions. As I've pointed out many times before, plenty of others have had a more taxing upbringing and early life. I've never seen anyone as quick to defend them and their actions due to that, so why should we for Tyson?

Well said Chris,

People always like to find an excuse as to why Tyson done some of the things he did when to me, it';s his own fault.

Many boxers have bad and unfortunate starts in life, Ortiz for a start is someone you could say had it worst than Tyson but I think many people

The biggest myth I feel is saying it's because Cus died. If you asked the casual fan they would probably say that and not realise he died circa a year 15-16 or so fights before he won the title and his downfall was after that.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 1:45 am

Experiences mould us into the human beings we are...Some of us have great Parents..some of us have bad ones or no parents...Some people are bullied everybody is different!!

Experiences can give us self belief or can give us low self esteem and a lack of trust in others!!!

Some people are strong enough to cope with our experiences....some aren't....

Some people can see the good in people and refuse to except that any body is worthless....

Some people can't cope with their pasts and turn to vices like alcohol to cope.....

Good people lost to drugs.....

Yep "Lets get the violins out".......very mature.

by azania Tue May 17, 2011 1:50 am

People react differently to certain circumstances. Just because Ortiz appears level headed and a fine man doesn't mean that he actually is. Look at Tyson before the demons became public. he was a pepsi advert boy, starred in video games etc. He appeared a fine upstanding man. Even his street fight with Mitch Green was excused as youthful exuberance etc.

He had no boundaries. His excesses were paid off by others. Many stronger personalities have gone off the rails for less. Plus the added fact that all his so called friends were there just for the money. He began to live in his own virtual world and lashed out at everyone.

I feel sorry for the man.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 1:52 am

Absolutely right Az...Money can buy you nice things..It can't erase hurt...

People think alcoholics and addicts are all working class...They'd be surprised..

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue May 17, 2011 1:53 am

Az I feel sorry for him but don't think anyone else should carry the can for him. He wasted his own career no one else did that stuff for him.People may have used him along the way but as a person it is up to him to judge who these people were and he didn't he was far to trusting.

by Guest Tue May 17, 2011 1:54 am

...and blah blah blah....how come we're no longer allowed to voice the opinion that some people are mentally weak, selfish and will look for any excuse to blame anyone but themselves for their failings?

I spend my days dealing with people who have a list of ready made excuses as to why they turned to crime but it wasn't their fault and someone else is to blame and how they're going to sue everyone for breaching their "Yoomun Rites"

Some of the people who cross my path are people I went to the same school with and grew up on the same council estates with, running the same streets and yet I was able to make a concious decision NOT to go down the same "career" path as them. Were they ALL victims of circumstance?

Of course there are people whose personal circumstances mean they're more likely to experience hardship through no fault of their own, but if we fail to recognise that the World does indeed contain some utterly dreadful people, then we're going to drown.

by Scottrf Tue May 17, 2011 1:55 am

Has there ever been someone more contradictory?

Criticising people for assumptions while making his own assumptions...

by **88Chris05** Tue May 17, 2011 1:55 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Absolutely right Az...Money can buy you nice things..It can't erase hurt...

People think alcoholics and addicts are all working class...They'd be surprised..

Yes, of course we all think that. Thanks for reminding us all what we think and how we feel once again, Truss.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 1:56 am

So you're telling me you can judge people....

Why have we got all these Stanfords, Nixons and Bernie Madoff characters at the top of the tree for so long..

Come on we've all been taken in at one time.....

I thought my father-in-law was okay at first.....

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 1:57 am

Mature response Chris.....very good that.

by Scottrf Tue May 17, 2011 1:57 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:So you're telling me you can judge people....

Well you have, all the way through this thread. Without having a clue what people are basing their opinions on.

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 1:57 am

It is the American way, say sorry, blame it on drugs, drink or a bad upbringing go into rehab come out and repeat. And get let off because you have a problem.

Poor Tyson he just in films now and goes to every big fight, hardly working for a living and only has a small size mansion.

Lets feel sorry for the guy.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 1:59 am

Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

by coxy0001 Tue May 17, 2011 1:59 am

Truss

Stop being so bloody ignorant.

I'm not going to go into my past and personal issues, but i can damn well guarantee i had to deal with more s**t than Tyson had to from the age of about 6 through until i was about 21 or so.

You go into a dark place, but life is about overcoming such challenges. He made the choices that led to his downfall by not dealing with things well.

You hit umpteen cross roads, he chose the wrong route umpteen times and there is no-one to blame for that barring him.

And please stop pretending like you're the only one to have had personal issues, it's pathetic and ignorant in equal quantities that you feel you're more versed on such issues than the rest of us. You're not you ignorant git.

by **88Chris05** Tue May 17, 2011 2:00 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Mature response Chris.....very good that.

Sorry, temporarily forgot all the witty 'I've slept with your wife' responses that you specialize in. I've given a number of 'mature' responses on this thread, as have others; but regardless of what people write, you continue your tact of telling us all that being a sex offender, wife beater, dirty fighter and vile-mouthed thug is all ok and not the individuals fault if they had a tough upbringing.

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 2:00 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

Cheap but true.

Poor Tiger Woods he was a sex addict and couldn't help himself, lucky he went to rehab.

by azania Tue May 17, 2011 2:01 am

prettyboykev wrote:Az I feel sorry for him but don't think anyone else should carry the can for him. He wasted his own career no one else did that stuff for him.People may have used him along the way but as a person it is up to him to judge who these people were and he didn't he was far to trusting.

Of course he should be blamed. There were also external factors at play in order to totally destroy a mentally weak young man. He was searching for something he apparently never had; guidance, influence and care (love). He trusted people and they abused that trust. For someone from a totally broken home and a disfunctional family who literally brought himself up in the streets, that's no easy pill to swallow.

How and why do you think many boxers who have earned millions end up bankrupt and destiture. Iran Berkley anyone?

Importantly a more circumspect Tyson has blamed no-one but himself for his demise. He has grown up it seems. Yes he should have known more. The fact is he didn't because he wasn't taught much. He was taught that money buys whatever you want except for what you really want.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue May 17, 2011 2:02 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

Cheap but true.

Poor Tiger Woods he was a sex addict and couldn't help himself, lucky he went to rehab.

Did you see the ass Tiger was tappin? You would be a sex addict as well. Poor Tiger my ariss he is a lucky boy.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:03 am

But I didn't mean any of that stuff it was tongue-in-cheek..you were being serious....and if you can't see the difference then............it's your problem!!

Changing the goal posts......

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 2:07 am

prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

Cheap but true.

Poor Tiger Woods he was a sex addict and couldn't help himself, lucky he went to rehab.

Did you see the ass Tiger was tappin? You would be a sex addict as well. Poor Tiger my ariss he is a lucky boy.

Yeah Poor Tiger, it was probably due to his upbringing, I don't know how he coped.

If Tyson came from a "good home" he might have done some training instead of robbing liqour stores, doing drugs to prepare for a fight.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:08 am

You've got nothing intelligent to say...so just go away.

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue May 17, 2011 2:08 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

Cheap but true.

Poor Tiger Woods he was a sex addict and couldn't help himself, lucky he went to rehab.

Did you see the ass Tiger was tappin? You would be a sex addict as well. Poor Tiger my ariss he is a lucky boy.

Yeah Poor Tiger, it was probably due to his upbringing, I don't know how he coped.

If Tyson came from a "good home" he might have done some training instead of robbing liqour stores, doing drugs to prepare for a fight.

He could have ended up like Charlie Sheen.

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 2:10 am

prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

Cheap but true.

Poor Tiger Woods he was a sex addict and couldn't help himself, lucky he went to rehab.

Did you see the ass Tiger was tappin? You would be a sex addict as well. Poor Tiger my ariss he is a lucky boy.

Yeah Poor Tiger, it was probably due to his upbringing, I don't know how he coped.

If Tyson came from a "good home" he might have done some training instead of robbing liqour stores, doing drugs to prepare for a fight.

He could have ended up like Charlie Sheen.

Have you know compassion for Charlie Sheen.

Shouldn't we all feel sorry for him.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:12 am

My thread is being hijacked.....

Lets get back to Tyson......

D4 go away there is a good boy..

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 2:14 am

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:My thread is being hijacked.....

Lets get back to Tyson......

D4 go away there is a good boy..

Yes Tyson is the number 1 culprit for his life not being all that it could be, but in reality he has not done half bad.

by Guest Tue May 17, 2011 2:15 am

Your thread isn't being hijacked...unless that's code for, "People don't agree with me so I'm going to insult them...and look, they're not going to stand for it!"

You're forever banging on about Freedom of Speech and yet when anyone else exercises that right, you try and tell them they're wrong...whilst bleating about your own right to Free Speech.

by azania Tue May 17, 2011 2:15 am

I read the story about a little kid who lived with dogs somewhere in the urals in Russia. Surprisingly the boy couldn't speak and often barked and growled. He attacked people who he felt threatened him.

Another kid in similar circumstances in India was fine after rescued.

Of course the russian kid only had himself to blame for attacking those who he felt threatened by. His personal circumstances and upbringing had nothing to to with anything whatsoever.

Damned ferrell kids.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:15 am

Can't you read??...

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue May 17, 2011 2:16 am

D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
prettyboykev wrote:
D4thincarnation wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Look I'm not interested you and your anti-American cheap shots.

Stick to Manny worshipping.

Cheap but true.

Poor Tiger Woods he was a sex addict and couldn't help himself, lucky he went to rehab.

Did you see the ass Tiger was tappin? You would be a sex addict as well. Poor Tiger my ariss he is a lucky boy.

Yeah Poor Tiger, it was probably due to his upbringing, I don't know how he coped.

If Tyson came from a "good home" he might have done some training instead of robbing liqour stores, doing drugs to prepare for a fight.

He could have ended up like Charlie Sheen.

Have you know compassion for Charlie Sheen.

Shouldn't we all feel sorry for him.

Charlie Sheen has drug fuelled orgies with porn stars and hookers. I have a couple of coronas and a bit of humpty dumpty with the Mrs if she can be arissd. My heart is breaking for the guy. Very Happy

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:17 am

Hello the voice of reason is here.......

Good post mate and most enlightening...

Haven't seen One flew over the cuckoo's nest for a while.....Must watch it again.

by Sugar Boy Sweetie Tue May 17, 2011 2:19 am

I'm a great believer in every man ultimately being responsible for his own actions and being in charge of his own destiny.

Tyson was always gonna be surrounded by hype and sycophants, but no-one forced him to start believing his own hype and neglect his boxing skills - which led (in part) to the Douglas defeat (that and the fact he was always gonna struggle against a taller guy who used a good jab and refused to be intimidated). Did his 'advisors' advise him to sexually assault a woman? Or bite another mans ear off? Or take drugs? Or beat that civilian up?

Yes he was badly advised, but his biggest problems came about due to his own personality defects and mental weaknesses. All men make mistakes in their youth, if you're smart you learn from them - Tyson did not. I can't go along with all this passing the buck mentality and making excuses for other peoples behaviour. Tyson was a talented but flawed individual, but ultimately - just like you and me - he has to be responsible for his own actions.

by **88Chris05** Tue May 17, 2011 2:19 am

azania wrote:I read the story about a little kid who lived with dogs somewhere in the urals in Russia. Surprisingly the boy couldn't speak and often barked and growled. He attacked people who he felt threatened him.

Another kid in similar circumstances in India was fine after rescued.

Of course the russian kid only had himself to blame for attacking those who he felt threatened by. His personal circumstances and upbringing had nothing to to with anything whatsoever.

Damned ferrell kids.

If I put in to written words how daft and pointless that comparison is to Mike Tyson and his subsequent life, I'd be banned from the site.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:22 am

While that is true Sugar...not everybody has the advantages given to others...

To attain anything in one's life one needs confidence.. If you've been abused at home or bullied by others then one might not be as confident or maybe harmed mentally..

Your view is too simplistic..People aren't machines and some people don't have the some positive life experiences may be you have had.

by azania Tue May 17, 2011 2:22 am

Sugar Boy Sweetie wrote:I'm a great believer in every man ultimately being responsible for his own actions and being in charge of his own destiny.

Tyson was always gonna be surrounded by hype and sycophants, but no-one forced him to start believing his own hype and neglect his boxing skills - which led (in part) to the Douglas defeat (that and the fact he was always gonna struggle against a taller guy who used a good jab and refused to be intimidated). Did his 'advisors' advise him to Cuddle a woman? Or bite another mans ear off? Or take drugs? Or beat that civilian up?

Yes he was badly advised, but his biggest problems came about due to his own personality defects and mental weaknesses. All men make mistakes in their youth, if you're smart you learn from them - Tyson did not. I can't go along with all this passing the buck mentality and making excuses for other peoples behaviour. Tyson was a talented but flawed individual, but ultimately - just like you and me - he has to be responsible for his own actions.

No one is exhonerating tyson from blame. What I am saying is that there were certain mitigating circumstances which sent him towards a downward spiral. Those circumstances should not be discounted.

Why is an abused person often an abuser. You would have thought they would be the last to subject anyone to abuse.

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 2:23 am

Maybe we should excuse the likes of Edwin Valero from his crime too. He had a rough upbringing, so let not be to harsh on him for he did.

by Guest Tue May 17, 2011 2:23 am

Damned ferrell kids.
*********************************************************
I didn't know Will Ferrell had wolf-children!!!!!!!

.....or did you really mean "feral" you cheeky wee scamp?

To attain anything in one's life one needs confidence..Or rich in-laws!!!!!!!!!!!

by azania Tue May 17, 2011 2:24 am

88Chris05 wrote:
azania wrote:I read the story about a little kid who lived with dogs somewhere in the urals in Russia. Surprisingly the boy couldn't speak and often barked and growled. He attacked people who he felt threatened him.

Another kid in similar circumstances in India was fine after rescued.

Of course the russian kid only had himself to blame for attacking those who he felt threatened by. His personal circumstances and upbringing had nothing to to with anything whatsoever.

Damned ferrell kids.

If I put in to written words how daft and pointless that comparison is to Mike Tyson and his subsequent life, I'd be banned from the site.

Feel free. I'll ensure you dont get banned (so long as you asterix all swearing).

by SugarRayRussell (PBK) Tue May 17, 2011 2:25 am

If he doesn't have to take responsibility for all the negative stuff around him and the mistakes he made in life then who gets the credit for the positive stuff he did?

by D4thincarnation Tue May 17, 2011 2:27 am

Maybe Tony Ayala jr. had a tough upbringing and rather than condemd him for the for robbing his neighbours house and raping her. we should have some compassion for him.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:29 am

Don't take this the wrong way Pretty but I'm not sure you and DAVE have the intellect to grasp the subject in hand...

Tyson is like everybody else responsible in for his life however people are victims of their upbringing and moulded by experience. Compassion is required.

Some are stronger than others..

The In-laws joke is wearing thin.....

by Guest Tue May 17, 2011 2:30 am

The In-laws joke is wearing thin.....

As is the repetitive drivel you're spouting....doesn't seem to stop you though so allow us the right to continue in the same vein.

by TRUSSMAN66 Tue May 17, 2011 2:31 am

I'm talking about people who hurt themselves not others......

Ayala jr's Cuddle is not to be condoned on any upbringing...

Tyson self harmed..He's completely different...No doubt you'll bring up Desiree to rebutt but I don't think that case was a strong one..

by Scottrf Tue May 17, 2011 2:31 am

Do you believe in moral responsibility at all TRUSS? Would you remove all jail terms? After all, a person's upbringing and mentality is unique to them, so how can they be judged?

Like I've said, it's unfortunate the way he was treaten by certain people, but no justification.

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