Wilkinson Was Better Than Carter, Says Woodward

Headline reads "Jonny was better than King Carter"

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2507452/SIR-CLIVE-WOODWARD-Jonny-Wilkinson-better-Dan-Carter.html

Woodward does make that claim, but doesn't really explain why. The Daily Mail copywriter hasn't really done him any favours by singling that sentence out. Woodward's piece is more of a lengthy tribute to Carter. While he does mention Wilkinson's defence, most people would probably say that.

When he was at his peak, Wilkinson was probably the best 10 in the world but I'd have Carter in my team. You think Woodward might make that choice too if he was going with his head rather than his heart.

But in reality though, this is just a sad, discredited old man looking for another opportunity to talk about the 15 minutes of long faded fame when anyone in the world gave a flying fornication about what he thought about anything.

Considering he recently named his proposed England squad with Danny Cipriani at the helm saying that his creativity outweighed the percentage game of Farell - I think his true thoughts on DC versus JW may have betrayed him.

GloriousEmpire wrote:But in reality though, this is just a sad, discredited old man looking for another opportunity to talk about the 15 minutes of long faded fame when anyone in the world gave a flying fornication about what he thought about anything.

Considering he recently named his proposed England squad with Danny Cipriani at the helm saying that his creativity outweighed the percentage game of Farell - I think his true thoughts on DC versus JW may have betrayed him.

It's a thought that wont have universal agreement but "Sad, discredited old man"? He made me and a lot of other English fans very happy back in 2003. He certainly has his faults but your overreaction is more absurd than his comment.

Woodward in self promotion 'shocker'

He was better than Carter...

Woodward better than Henry or Hansen. Woodward's furious the journalist misquoted him.  

Wilko won a WC.

tigerleghorn wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:But in reality though, this is just a sad, discredited old man looking for another opportunity to talk about the 15 minutes of long faded fame when anyone in the world gave a flying fornication about what he thought about anything.

Considering he recently named his proposed England squad with Danny Cipriani at the helm saying that his creativity outweighed the percentage game of Farell - I think his true thoughts on DC versus JW may have betrayed him.

It's a thought that wont have universal agreement but "Sad, discredited old man"? He made me and a lot of other English fans very happy back in 2003. He certainly has his faults but your overreaction is more absurd than his comment.

Exactly, back in 2003. Since then he's been discredited by his collosal balls up of a lions tour - where he fairly resoundingly demonstrated his theories about selection in general and JW in specific were just utter toss.

It's the Daily Mail - not to be taken in any way seriously. Nothing to see, move along

Has Carter won a RWC?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:But in reality though, this is just a sad, discredited old man looking for another opportunity to talk about the 15 minutes of long faded fame when anyone in the world gave a flying fornication about what he thought about anything.

Considering he recently named his proposed England squad with Danny Cipriani at the helm saying that his creativity outweighed the percentage game of Farell - I think his true thoughts on DC versus JW may have betrayed him.

It's a thought that wont have universal agreement but "Sad, discredited old man"? He made me and a lot of other English fans very happy back in 2003. He certainly has his faults but your overreaction is more absurd than his comment.

Exactly, back in 2003. Since then he's been discredited by his collosal balls up of a lions tour - where he fairly resoundingly demonstrated his theories about selection in general and JW in specific were just utter toss.

I actually agree absolutely with you.

Clive has been dining off the 2003 world cup win for the last 10 years. He should take some credit of course but so should the players, the backroom staff, basically everyone involved with that England side.

His 2005 Lions tour was a shambles.

Yes Scrumpy even though he did not play in the semi or final. All RWC squad members got a medal. Did BOD have a Lions series victory?

Scrumpy wrote:Wilko won a WC.

Seriously? When was this? I'm surprised more wasn't made of it.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yes Scrumpy even though he did not play in the semi or final. All RWC squad members got a medal. Did BOD have a Lions series victory?

Does it really count, Danny Grewcock has a RWC winners medal but he says himself that he didn't win it as he didn't play.

Even more shocking: rugby fans pay heed to the Daily Mail.
GE predicted the DM will run a 'Haka' sensation too.
I think it will go something like this:
"I say... those natives are getting a bit restless in the suburbs with their aggressive war dancing... harrumph harrumph. Not cricket."
Colonel Blimp, special Empire Correspondent.

has harry hill would say , i like Jonney wilkinson but i also like Dan carter but which one best . only one way to find out FIGHT  

Scrumpy wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Yes Scrumpy even though he did not play in the semi or final. All RWC squad members got a medal. Did BOD have a Lions series victory?

Does it really count, Danny Grewcock has a RWC winners medal but he says himself that he didn't win it as he didn't play.

I thought he played vs Uruguay and got injured? I know Shaw didn't play a single minute in that tournament.


Woodward is just embarrassing himself now, when you pick a dream team with a non-rugby union player at 13 you tend to lose a little credibility. Or any that is left post 2005 and Southampton FC.

In terms of JW vs DC, well I think if JW hadn't been so injury prone (or if he had played for Leicester and been given more protection) he would be ahead of DC in terms of points scored. But DC is a better natural footballer, I see JW as a very good player who pushed himself to the top with an unbelievable work ethic.

Of course a player will think that just like BOD didn't feel a part of the series win. But that doesn't change the fact Carter still has a RWC medal. What he thinks of it is his choice but your point JW has a RWC medal is not a point in Wilkinson's favour. If he were injured and England still won would you think any less of him? I have a feeling you would as the left footed drop goal is difficult to erase from your mind.

Personally I think JW suited perfectly England's needs and Carter suited NZ's. The question is how much did those two contribute to the style of play those teams played?

Bathman_in_London wrote:In terms of JW vs DC, well I think if JW hadn't been so injury prone (or if he had played for Leicester and been given more protection) he would be ahead of DC in terms of points scored. But DC is a better natural footballer, I see JW as a very good player who pushed himself to the top with an unbelievable work ethic.

Yep. Model professional and never one to blow his own trumpet. One of the hardest players to dislike, despite the sycophancy that sometimes surrounds him.

People forget that most of JW's success has been behind a monster pack. That of 2003 England side and the Toulon foreign legion.

Carter has always been in the best team in the world which makes his job a lot easier. So much experience and quality at his disposal.

I wonder what would happen if they swapped nationalities.

Both have been excellent but like most 10s without that platform they would struggle.

Carter struggled vs England last season because his pack weren't giving him a good platform. He's so used to being able to do what he likes.

Bathman in London you talk about protection, JW didn't have that at Newcastle and consequently suffered as a result.

JW should be praised for helping inspire a relatively mediocre England to the 2007 RWC. Carter hasn't had similar issues.

I still feel that JW was foolish to stay at Newcastle all those years.

It is just an opinion, clouded by subjective thinking. Nothing wrong with that.

We can all disagree of course.

They're different players.

Carter is better skill for skill but if I had to put my life on one player, I'd choose Wilkinson every day of the week. He always gave everything and always rose to the occasion. He's a clutch player, the clutch player of the modern era.

His career has been remarkable given even half his caps for England were received when he was not fit... we haven't seen him really full fit for England since 2003.

2007 was his greatest triumph for me. Pool stages England beaten 36-0. Few changes but mainly JW for the final. England lose 15-6 and were whiskers away from the title.

God there are some precious people around.  For one he doesn't even make that claim.  He says, 'It is a great shame we never saw the pair go head-to-head at their peak but I believe Wilkinson would have had the edge.'  Not that over their careers Wilkinson was better.  In a hypothetical situation that never happened he made a call.  Bid deal.  Have you bothered to read the article?  Woodward couldn't have had more praise for Carter.

Anyway I can't believe this thread made me read something in the Daily Mail.  I feel dirty, I'm off for a shower.

beshocked wrote:People forget that most of JW's success has been behind a monster pack. That of 2003 England side and the Toulon foreign legion.

Carter has always been in the best team in the world which makes his job a lot easier. So much experience and quality at his disposal.

I wonder what would happen if they swapped nationalities.

Both have been excellent but like most 10s without that platform they would struggle.

Carter struggled vs England last season because his pack weren't giving him a good platform. He's so used to being able to do what he likes.

Bathman in London you talk about protection, JW didn't have that at Newcastle and consequently suffered as a result.

JW should be praised for helping inspire a relatively mediocre England to the 2007 RWC. Carter hasn't had similar issues.

I still feel that JW was foolish to stay at Newcastle all those years.

When has Carter played behind an inferior pack? NZ with Henry had one of the strongest packs in rugby don't forget. Had he had a pack say of AUS we would have struggled just like anyone else.

If the Daily Mail were to issue a snow warning in winter - I'd pop out and buy some sunblock.

This is it for me, from Kia...

"Personally I think JW suited perfectly England's needs and Carter suited NZ's".

It's chalk n cheese really. Used to really dislike JW even though he's a real gent. But then I grew up and admitted to myself that he was actually very good (and surprisingly gutsy). I think DC has done some dazzling things in his time. Did JW have the same skill-set as DC?

I cant help thinking it will be a very long time before the scoring records of either of these two players will be beaten. It obviously didnt happen but scary to think of what JW's record might have been if he hadnt been crocked so often

ebop wrote:This is it for me, from Kia...

"Personally I think JW suited perfectly England's needs and Carter suited NZ's".

It's chalk n cheese really. Used to really dislike JW even though he's a real gent. But then I grew up and admitted to myself that he was actually very good (and surprisingly gutsy). I think DC has done some dazzling things in his time. Did JW have the same skill-set as DC?

I agree ebop, different players, but then again... Carter couldn't do the things Carlos Spencer did either. Had he had a reliable boot on him he would have gone down as the greatest. Perhaps the one player of the modern age I would say who had the "genius" factor.

Then you had Stephen Larkham too.

beshocked wrote:

Clive has been dining off the 2003 world cup win for the last 10 years. He should take some credit of course but so should the players, the backroom staff, basically everyone involved with that England side.

His 2005 Lions tour was a shambles.

Yes he has dined out a long time on that win, but he did put together the players, the backroom staff and everyone involved in that set up, which is what made that side the winners.

Agree he has not done anything of note since, but from reading his book it came across the single minded way he built that up over 4 or 5 years to be the side he wanted. Guess once he had done that he didn't have a Plan B as to what to do with himself and so failed in later ventures.

To the JW vs Carter, I think I agree with what has been said, Carter is more skillfull, but JW would be the player I pick for his steadiness, and his defence.

I think people should however acknowledge that Clive turned the England side around. Yes he had the players but he revolutionised the thinking around the squad, the attitude etc and without that they wouldn't have got close.

The 91 side was arguably just as talented... the pack was almost certainly more. Yet they were miles away from the title.

ebop wrote:This is it for me, from Kia...

"Personally I think JW suited perfectly England's needs and Carter suited NZ's".

It's chalk n cheese really. Used to really dislike JW even though he's a real gent. But then I grew up and admitted to myself that he was actually very good (and surprisingly gutsy). I think DC has done some dazzling things in his time. Did JW have the same skill-set as DC?

No he didnt. Carter has always been a much better running threat. JW often appeared to be very mechanical and I dont think he was always the best game manager, but his kicking and passing skills were top notch and pound for pound its hard to find a bigger tackler anywhere. Its easy to forget how his presence used to affect other teams. At his best it was very much as 1/2p is now - commit a penalty offense in your own half and thats 3 points...

ebop wrote:This is it for me, from Kia...

"Personally I think JW suited perfectly England's needs and Carter suited NZ's".

It's chalk n cheese really. Used to really dislike JW even though he's a real gent. But then I grew up and admitted to myself that he was actually very good (and surprisingly gutsy). I think DC has done some dazzling things in his time. Did JW have the same skill-set as DC?

I actually think he had a lot more skill than we ever saw really. Not sure if it was just the way his game developed, the way the coaches wanted him to play or the impact of the injuries but I don't think we ever saw his full skill set. I remember reading an interview with Tuigamala where he spoke about Wilkinsons talent. He said he'd been working the whole summer on a new move where while running at full pace he'd drop the ball on the back of his heel to knock it over the on-coming defence. He showed it to Wilkinson and by the end of the session he'd mastered it.

Back to your orginial question we'd have to say no as DC has been able to demostrate it but it's a bit of a frustration with us English fans that we never saw everything JW had to offer. Whatever given the choice I'd pick Dan Carter though, he's got everything and has regularly demonstrated it!

It's instructive to read JW's own autobiography. He is very clear that when he played conservatively it was because he didn't see it as the right time to open up.

Certainly he was capable of great bits of vision and creativity when the opportunity was on - long cut-out passes, chips into the corner.

Probably the big difference between Carter and WIlkinson is that Carter is more of a threat ball in hand. That forces defences to commit more time and attention to him rather than to the players outside him and creates more opportunities. Although Wilkinson worked hard to develop a step (I can remember being amazed by it when he came back from his first round of injuries - not that it was particularly brilliant, but that he'd taught himself something that is normally instinctive), he never fixed the defence in quite the same way.

On the other hand, Carter has never delivered a tackle like the one JW landed on Mortlock early in the 2003 Final. It set the tenor of the whole game.

My guess is that if they were alternating in the same team, with Carter they would create more tries but with Wilkinson they would score more points and concede fewer.

Alternating in the same team JW would see his team score more points and concede fewer? Even in a hypothetical world that makes no sense.  

I think knowing what said same team comprises would determine how the points were scored or conceded rather than one player.

If only we had voting buttons like the daily mail.

I still feel that JW was foolish to stay at Newcastle all those years..

Or alternatively he simply enjoyed playing for his club- a small yet great family style club, was paid very well despite being away with England so much and showed loyalty, and lived in a great part of the world.

Could he have achieved more in the club game...absolutely no doubt about that....but people up here people are passionate about this area. See Alan Shearer, a similar situation in football.

Toadfish wrote:God there are some precious people around.  For one he doesn't even make that claim.  He says, 'It is a great shame we never saw the pair go head-to-head at their peak but I believe Wilkinson would have had the edge.'  Not that over their careers Wilkinson was better.  In a hypothetical situation that never happened he made a call.  Bid deal.  Have you bothered to read the article?  Woodward couldn't have had more praise for Carter.

Anyway I can't believe this thread made me read something in the Daily Mail.  I feel dirty, I'm off for a shower.

THE comment of the day!

To me, they are both quality players and will go down as legends of the game. never really bought into this ' who is the better' thing myself.

Carter is simply miles ahead of Wilkinson...fact.

I disagree Rainbow...

Toadfish wrote:

ebop wrote:This is it for me, from Kia...

"Personally I think JW suited perfectly England's needs and Carter suited NZ's".

It's chalk n cheese really. Used to really dislike JW even though he's a real gent. But then I grew up and admitted to myself that he was actually very good (and surprisingly gutsy). I think DC has done some dazzling things in his time. Did JW have the same skill-set as DC?

I actually think he had a lot more skill than we ever saw really.  Not sure if it was just the way his game developed, the way the coaches wanted him to play or the impact of the injuries but I don't think we ever saw his full skill set.

Interesting comments - the first memory I have of Wilkinson was playing for Newcastle against Bath and he did this shimmy and left then England fullback Matt Perry for dead on this outside break -about 98/99 maybe?

If you look at his performances on the 2001 Lions he was much more attack orientated but maybe he became a product of the forward orientated style that was developing in England at the time. I also think he suffered from over coaching and became too mechanical - a cog in the England machine rather than the lynchpin.

Did he have Carters skills set? He certainly didn't show it if he had, but maybe he could've had if he'd been in a different environment.

Funnily enough I think the Wilko of today is playing better than Carter.....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I still feel that JW was foolish to stay at Newcastle all those years..

Or alternatively he simply enjoyed playing for his club- a small yet great family style club, was paid very well despite being away with England so much and showed loyalty, and lived in a great part of the world.

Could he have achieved more in the club game...absolutely no doubt about that....but people up here people are passionate about this area. See Alan Shearer, a similar situation in football.

I thought it was loyalty to Black which kept him there Geordie? Plus I'm sure it was nice to be fairly anonymous in a football mad part of the country. I do agree with Beshocked though, I can't help feeling some of those injuries could have been avoided if he was behind the monster Tigers pack, he would have certainly had to take on less himself (although with his personality, it might not have made any difference).

As an aside, I met him in 2004 when he was at the height of his fame. He was so friendly and down to earth (unlike Dayglo I might add), so I have a lot of time for him. His humility and hard work is something I wish all England players would aim for.

JW had a very good running game...he had pace, a good step and an eye for the gap. His handling maybe wasnt exceptional but was still very good.

But people forget this and think he was just "a kicker".

Nachos Jones wrote:To me, they are both quality players and will go down as legends of the game. never really bought into this ' who is the better' thing myself.

Agree. The who is better thing with two terrific players is almost completely personal opinion. Ane people will never agree.

I saw Jonny much more than Carter. I think Jonny was an all time great player, is a terrific person as a role model for kids and has the intangible of a winner. Everything to like and admire.

Bathman,

Undeniably he could have been more successful at the club level and probably injury free had he not been with us. His loyalty wasnt just to Blacky...he was immensely popular here and newcastle and the sourounding area is a great place to live.

Only he can really say why he showed so much loyalty...but thats why he is even more loved up here...to stay when he should really have moved on.

GeordieFalcon wrote:JW had a very good running game...he had pace, a good step and an eye for the gap. His handling maybe wasnt exceptional but was still very good.

But people forget this and think he was just "a kicker".

I agree. Early in his career, JW was one hell of an attacking player. Always solid in defence but his attacking play was excellent before injuries slowed him down somewhat.

Scrumpy wrote:Has Carter won a RWC?

Yep.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Wilko won a WC.

Seriously? When was this? I'm surprised more wasn't made of it.

Hilarious sir.

My favourite post. Ever.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:Has Carter won a RWC?

Yep.

As much as Danny Grewcock, Jean De Villiers or James Dalton has.

I'm sure JW's lethal try scoring and attacking abilities were held back by not having some one of Dylan Hartley's ability at applying just the right not quite enough obstruction to create the gaps for him to run through in the side at the time