New Zealand v India, Third ODI

First topic message reminder :

The 3rd ODI of the 5 match series will take place on Saturday the 25th of Jan 2014 at Eden Park.
New Zealand, leading 2-0, would want to rap the series up here. There is a chance they would opt for the relative quicker Hamish Benet over veteran Kyle Mills because of the track being a bit quicker.
As for India, this is a must win game. The batting, other than the captain and his deputy, hasn't really fired. Rohit Sharma has been struggling, Shikhar Dhawan too hasn't got going. Ajinkya Rahane and Suresh Raina couldn't build on starts and Ravindra Jadeja also hasn't been producing the goods with the bat. Perennial struggler Ishant Sharma has been his usual self, and R Ashwin's lack of form has prompted quite justified questions on his place in the side.
Suresh Raina got hit on his elbow, and Varun Aaron had a long spell in the nets, reports cricinfo. If Raina doesn't pull up well by tomorrow morning, Stuart Binny or Ambati Rayudu could get a game. And will MSD ditch Ishant for the quicker Aaron?

Boundary of the first ball.

A tie. Amazing finish with 17 runs off Anderson's last over.

Disappointed in the result.

Jadeja should thank the umpire for not giving him out.

New Zealand should rue those dropped catches, the missed stumping and the number of wides bowled in the last few overs.

One thing is certain, batsmen don't walk.

Two pretty pathetic bowling attacks. 

Indians death bowling is lamentable. 

New Zealand's relies on the Indians gifting them their wickets.

It was terrific from Jadeja. That should give him a lot of confidence with the bat, he has been bowling well but was struggling a bit with the bat, what a time to find form.

And they should seriously consider promoting Ravichandran Ashwin to 5 in place of Raina. Raina is only useful as a hitter, leave him at 7, Ashwin's bowling alone is not good enough to get him selected at this point, but he has the makings of a proper batsman, they should make use of that and find better balance for the side.

MSP 

Will India consider playing Ashwin at 6 in the Test series as the batting all rounder?

Considering a deadbeat like Rohit doesn't really deserve to be in any India line up IMO.

Biltong wrote:Disappointed in the result.

Jadeja should thank the umpire for not giving him out.

New Zealand should rue those dropped catches, the missed stumping and the number of wides bowled in the last few overs.

One thing is certain, batsmen don't walk.

Too right.

A nightmare last over from Anderson. He needed to bowl with more control there... the wides could have lost it for NZ.

Anderson doesn't seem to a Have a slower ball, neither did McGlenagan, same oace, half volleys, no control, quite disappointing.

 

there is a theory bowlers win test matches and the corollory is batsmen win ODIs.

Dhoni's theory is clear bat second.....use bowling to contain as much as possible....and then go out and chase whatever is served on the plate.

some observations

1) Raina...he cannot build innings...cannot get big 70s and 80s.......can't have a No.5 who just does 20s and 30s.
such a role can easily be handed to a bowler who can bat.

2) so we really need one more batter who can hold the innings together Pujara or Tiwary come to mind....maybe Rayadu will be given a chance

3) just because Aaron was expensive doesn't mean Ishant should be back now.

4) Lighting a fire under the backside of Ashwin and pressure from Binny in the wings.... has transformed him ....between Ashwin and Dhoni them they are forcing Ashwin to be turned into an allrounder.....keeping Binny out.


good India should win both the games and hopes Eng pulls out one more win and we are back to a rather meaningless No.1

Why should India win both games?

Were Jadeja given out they would have lost this match by some margin.

On what basis should they now win the next two? Nothing convinces me any game is a certainty.

Biltong wrote:Why should India win both games?

Were Jadeja given out they would have lost this match by some margin.

On what basis should they now win the next two? Nothing convinces me any game is a certainty.

iffs and b.utts do not matter......rub of the green evens out.

I don't think I am is stating that there is any certainty...but rather combining wish and hope...with some rationale.

the rationale being...India hit the ground cold......new pitches, weather conditions no practice games.....are only now beginning to warm up and also figuring their best combinations.

Should implies a fait accompli. Perhaps could would be more accurate.

Gerry SA wrote:MSP 

Will India consider playing Ashwin at 6 in the Test series as the batting all rounder?

Considering a deadbeat like Rohit doesn't really deserve to be in any India line up IMO.

Gerry, anyone could come in for Rohit. Ashwin has some real potential with the bat. Perhaps becoming an real all-rounder could be his calling card. He has shown better than Raina with the short ball, and if they want to keep Raina in the side, converting Ashwin into an all-rounder at 5 won't be a bad idea. Ashwin can bat like a batsman, Dhoni is there to cover different situation including insurance, and Raina can blast a quick 30, and that's all he seems capable of in recent times, but if he does at 7 rather than 5 or 6, then that could help the side in fact. Drop Rohit, bring in Pujara.
Varun Aaron was a bit expensive and he didn't bowl as quick as he used to before his injury though he generated good pace for an Indian seamer. If at all they want to replace him, then no Ishant please!!. I like the look of Ishwar Pandey though I think he'll be a better test bowler. I would give Aaron another opportunity, but if they want to replace him, then it has to be Pandey.

MS Dhoni has been India's most consistent batsman in this series, with a couple of half-centuries and another decent contribution. Even Virat Kohli had a failure. But Dhoni said he's not happy with his performance and said that him getting out in the 42nd or 43rd over is putting the side under pressure as he's not able to play his role successfully.
He has done it time and time again but a few failures on the way is only human.

Biltong wrote:Should implies a fait accompli. Perhaps could would be more accurate.

being third language many a times i unable to am pick such subtleties in English  

KP_fan wrote:

Biltong wrote:Should implies a fait accompli. Perhaps could would be more accurate.

being third language many a times i unable to am pick such subtleties in English  

  

Varun Aaron was a bit expensive and he didn't bowl as quick as he used to before his injury though he generated good pace for an Indian seamer

msp...how fast was aaron today ?

Didn't watch his entire spell, but when I did, he was around the late 130s to early 140s .

msp83 wrote:Didn't watch his entire spell, but when I did, he was around the late 130s to early 140s .

well that's not bad

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Didn't watch his entire spell, but when I did, he was around the late 130s to early 140s .

well that's not bad

Not bad at all, but he has bowled quicker in the past. And as a bowler who doesn't get the ball to move a lot, Aaron's asset is his pace. His recent Ranji performances hinted at him developing more skills, but I hope they don't come at the expense of his speed.

msp83 wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:MSP 

Will India consider playing Ashwin at 6 in the Test series as the batting all rounder?

Considering a deadbeat like Rohit doesn't really deserve to be in any India line up IMO.

Gerry, anyone could come in for Rohit. Ashwin has some real potential with the bat. Perhaps becoming an real all-rounder could be his calling card. He has shown better than Raina with the short ball, and if they want to keep Raina in the side, converting Ashwin into an all-rounder at 5 won't be a bad idea. Ashwin can bat like a batsman, Dhoni is there to cover different situation including insurance, and Raina can blast a quick 30, and that's all he seems capable of in recent times, but if he does at 7 rather than 5 or 6, then that could help the side in fact. Drop Rohit, bring in Pujara.
Varun Aaron was a bit expensive and he didn't bowl as quick as he used to before his injury though he generated good pace for an Indian seamer. If at all they want to replace him, then no Ishant please!!. I like the look of Ishwar Pandey though I think he'll be a better test bowler. I would give Aaron another opportunity, but if they want to replace him, then it has to be Pandey.

I was hoping Pandey would get a game in this series. I've read he's rated pretty highly by Duncan Fletcher.

If Ashwin can become a proper all rounder, then surely Raina can be axed? He's no more than a slogger, a little better than Afridi.

India should give Binny a run, son of a World Cup winner - must have some of his fathers skills!

And surely Pujara's gotta be getting a go at number 4 soon? He's too damn good to be typecast a Test specialist.

Get rid of Ishant, Rohit and Raina for good. They can play in the IPL...

Biltong wrote:Why should India win both games?

Were Jadeja given out they would have lost this match by some margin.

On what basis should they now win the next two? Nothing convinces me any game is a certainty.

Biltong

Whilst I think batsmen should walk, Biff's never been a walker and I've never been critical of him.

Umpire made an error. Jadeja did what he's entitled to do.

Gerry SA wrote:

msp83 wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:MSP 

Will India consider playing Ashwin at 6 in the Test series as the batting all rounder?

Considering a deadbeat like Rohit doesn't really deserve to be in any India line up IMO.

Gerry, anyone could come in for Rohit. Ashwin has some real potential with the bat. Perhaps becoming an real all-rounder could be his calling card. He has shown better than Raina with the short ball, and if they want to keep Raina in the side, converting Ashwin into an all-rounder at 5 won't be a bad idea. Ashwin can bat like a batsman, Dhoni is there to cover different situation including insurance, and Raina can blast a quick 30, and that's all he seems capable of in recent times, but if he does at 7 rather than 5 or 6, then that could help the side in fact. Drop Rohit, bring in Pujara.
Varun Aaron was a bit expensive and he didn't bowl as quick as he used to before his injury though he generated good pace for an Indian seamer. If at all they want to replace him, then no Ishant please!!. I like the look of Ishwar Pandey though I think he'll be a better test bowler. I would give Aaron another opportunity, but if they want to replace him, then it has to be Pandey.

I was hoping Pandey would get a game in this series. I've read he's rated pretty highly by Duncan Fletcher.

If Ashwin can become a proper all rounder, then surely Raina can be axed? He's no more than a slogger, a little better than Afridi.

India should give Binny a run, son of a World Cup winner - must have some of his fathers skills!

And surely Pujara's gotta be getting a go at number 4 soon? He's too damn good to be typecast a Test specialist.

Get rid of Ishant, Rohit and Raina for good. They can play in the IPL...

Gerry
Pujara can and should come in for Nohit at the top of the order. I think Rahane should be left alone at for for some time.
As for Raina, he still has his use. Can be a handy parttime bowling option, it has to be noted that not many of India's batsmen bowl these days. Kohli does it a bit, Rohit can also have an over or 2 at times. But none of them are at the level of Yuvraj, Sehwag or Tendulkar with the ball. Raina is one of the better fielders in the side as well. But he's not really good enough to bat in the top 6. But if Ashwin can perform as a batsman, they can find a way to make use of Raina's qualities. If that's not possible, they have to dump him for Rayudu.
I am not really convinced about Stuart Binny. Not sure his bowling is international class, and his batting record is nothing great either. I know stats do not tell you everything, but I really haven't found anything in his game that suggests some extraordinary spark.

msp83 wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

msp83 wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:MSP 

Will India consider playing Ashwin at 6 in the Test series as the batting all rounder?

Considering a deadbeat like Rohit doesn't really deserve to be in any India line up IMO.

Gerry, anyone could come in for Rohit. Ashwin has some real potential with the bat. Perhaps becoming an real all-rounder could be his calling card. He has shown better than Raina with the short ball, and if they want to keep Raina in the side, converting Ashwin into an all-rounder at 5 won't be a bad idea. Ashwin can bat like a batsman, Dhoni is there to cover different situation including insurance, and Raina can blast a quick 30, and that's all he seems capable of in recent times, but if he does at 7 rather than 5 or 6, then that could help the side in fact. Drop Rohit, bring in Pujara.
Varun Aaron was a bit expensive and he didn't bowl as quick as he used to before his injury though he generated good pace for an Indian seamer. If at all they want to replace him, then no Ishant please!!. I like the look of Ishwar Pandey though I think he'll be a better test bowler. I would give Aaron another opportunity, but if they want to replace him, then it has to be Pandey.

I was hoping Pandey would get a game in this series. I've read he's rated pretty highly by Duncan Fletcher.

If Ashwin can become a proper all rounder, then surely Raina can be axed? He's no more than a slogger, a little better than Afridi.

India should give Binny a run, son of a World Cup winner - must have some of his fathers skills!

And surely Pujara's gotta be getting a go at number 4 soon? He's too damn good to be typecast a Test specialist.

Get rid of Ishant, Rohit and Raina for good. They can play in the IPL...

Gerry
Pujara can and should come in for Nohit at the top of the order. I think Rahane should be left alone at for for some time.
As for Raina, he still has his use. Can be a handy parttime bowling option, it has to be noted that not many of India's batsmen bowl these days. Kohli does it a bit, Rohit can also have an over or 2 at times. But none of them are at the level of Yuvraj, Sehwag or Tendulkar with the ball. Raina is one of the better fielders in the side as well. But he's not really good enough to bat in the top 6. But if Ashwin can perform as a batsman, they can find a way to make use of Raina's qualities. If that's not possible, they have to dump him for Rayudu.
I am not really convinced about Stuart Binny. Not sure his bowling is international class, and his batting record is nothing great either. I know stats do not tell you everything, but I really haven't found anything in his game that suggests some extraordinary spark.

There's a notion that Pujara scores too slowly, but he's technically very good so he should be able to score at a faster rate if needed.

Interestingly, a Indian friend, said on domestic cricket pujara often scores at a very good rate after he passed 100, so if he open in ODIs, why can't he do it at international level as well?

Pujara, ones set, can score very quickly in tests. Even his latest test hundred, against Steyn and co proved that. His double tons and triple tons in FC cricket came at a fine clip. His List A average is 54.

Whilst I'm not gonna bother defending Nohit, not sure why Rahane should get preferential treatment. He has had his chances in ODIs. Should get the rest of the series, no more than that. Raina must go immediately. Agree with msp that if Ashwin is gonna play, he should be used as a batting allrounder ala Yuvraj in 2011. And then you can probably think about Raina at 7. But personally speaking, I'd prefer to see a proper batsman (Rayudu) and a proper, wicket taking spinner (maybe Mishra. I'm not fully convinced but he deserves a go) in place of that duo.

msp83 wrote:Pujara, ones set, can score very quickly in tests. Even his latest test hundred, against Steyn and co proved that. His double tons and triple tons in FC cricket came at a fine clip. His List A average is 54.

With an average of 54, it's ludicrous that Pujara's not the third name on the team sheet...(after Dhoni and Kohli).

ShankyCricket wrote:Whilst I'm not gonna bother defending Nohit, not sure why Rahane should get preferential treatment. He has had his chances in ODIs. Should get the rest of the series, no more than that. Raina must go immediately. Agree with msp that if Ashwin is gonna play, he should be used as a batting allrounder ala Yuvraj in 2011. And then you can probably think about Raina at 7. But personally speaking, I'd prefer to see a proper batsman (Rayudu) and a proper, wicket taking spinner (maybe Mishra. I'm not fully convinced but he deserves a go) in place of that duo.

Why not try Pravez Rosol?

Gerry SA wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:Whilst I'm not gonna bother defending Nohit, not sure why Rahane should get preferential treatment. He has had his chances in ODIs. Should get the rest of the series, no more than that. Raina must go immediately. Agree with msp that if Ashwin is gonna play, he should be used as a batting allrounder ala Yuvraj in 2011. And then you can probably think about Raina at 7. But personally speaking, I'd prefer to see a proper batsman (Rayudu) and a proper, wicket taking spinner (maybe Mishra. I'm not fully convinced but he deserves a go) in place of that duo.

Why not try Pravez Rosol?

Definite prospect. Not sure he's a genuine wicket taker yet though. An attacking leggie is worth a try in my view. Our death bowling is awful, so we need to have a bigger wicket taking threat in the middle overs even if he goes for a few.

ShankyCricket wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:Whilst I'm not gonna bother defending Nohit, not sure why Rahane should get preferential treatment. He has had his chances in ODIs. Should get the rest of the series, no more than that. Raina must go immediately. Agree with msp that if Ashwin is gonna play, he should be used as a batting allrounder ala Yuvraj in 2011. And then you can probably think about Raina at 7. But personally speaking, I'd prefer to see a proper batsman (Rayudu) and a proper, wicket taking spinner (maybe Mishra. I'm not fully convinced but he deserves a go) in place of that duo.

Why not try Pravez Rosol?

Definite prospect. Not sure he's a genuine wicket taker yet though. An attacking leggie is worth a try in my view. Our death bowling is awful, so we need to have a bigger wicket taking threat in the middle overs even if he goes for a few.

With the way ODI cricket is structured as a batsman's game, not sure how much of a difference a conventional attacking leggy can make unless his name is Shane Warne. That's one reason why I am a bit more charitable to Ashwin, unlike in the case of say Rohit Sharma or even Ishant Sharma. Ishant too, like every other bowler, is hampered by the rules and stuff, but I don't think the way he's bowling, he could make a difference even if there are 9 fielders outside the circle.......

I'm not saying Mishra is some sort of a messiah. I don't even rate him that highly. Just think its worth an experiment. A gamble worth taking. If he comes off, can be a matchwinner. If he doesn't, he still can't be that much worse than Ashwin. On balance, I think the positives outweigh the negatives.

--Rahane has to play on.......he should have in fact never been dropped when he was.

--Rahane should be moved to open...and Rohit for a bit can be tried in the middle and then dumped.
if Rhane doesn't work as an opener Pujara comes in to open..whihc is pretty much the best spot suited for him otehr than No.3 that is well taken up by Kohli.

--Raina should make way first for Rayadu and then if Rayadu doesn't click....Manoj Tiwary if fit can come back

KPF, Rohit has been a complete failure in the middle order even on subcontinent roads. He has to be dumped, the sooner it is done, the better it is. Pujara to open, with Rahane at 4. Besides having a solid technique, Rahane can also play the big shots, and so he he should stick to the middle order. Pujara can counter the 2 new balls and then get going at a fair clip, letting the rest bat around him.

Rahane has played over 20 ODIs with a record that won't get him into the Zimbabwe side. Ridiculous to suggest he should open ahead of Pujara.

As Gerry said, Pujara should be the third name on the team sheet after MSD and Kohli. The rest can be fitted around. Not opposed to giving Rahane a bit of a run at 4 though I'm not sure thats his best position. But Pujara has to open for sure so number 4 is the only spot available for Rahane.

And yes, Rayudu for Raina.