Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread II

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

A. Edinburgh
 

 
1. Pre-season
 
Fri 30 Aug 2013, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 15 - 5 Newcastle Falcons
 
Fri 23 Aug 2013, 19:30
Northampton Saints 24 - 6 Edinburgh Rugby
 
2. 2013/2014 Season - Played
 
Sat 7 Sep, 19:15
Munster Rugby 34 - 23 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 13 Newport Gwent Dragons
 
Sat 21 Sep, 18:30
Ospreys 44 - 10 Edinburgh Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 9 - 22 Scarlets

Sun 6 Oct, 14:05
Cardiff Blues 29 - 12 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 25 Oct, 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 20 - 13 Benetton Treviso

Fri 1 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 25 - 23 Zebre

Fri 22 Nov 19:05
Ulster Rugby 41 - 17 Edinburgh Rugby

Fri 29 Nov 19:45
Edinburgh Rugby 43 - 10 Connacht

Fri 20 Dec 19:35
Edinburgh Rugby 11 - 6 Leinster

Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors

Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby

3. 2013/2014 Season - Next 3 Games
 
Sun 9 Feb 13:05
Newport Gwent Dragons  v  Edinburgh Rugby

Sat 15 Feb 17:00
Connacht Rugby v Edinburgh Rugby

Sat 22 Feb 14:30
Scarlets v Edinburgh Rugby

B. Glasgow
 

 
1. Pre-season
 
Sat 31 Aug 2013, 15:00
Exeter Chiefs 26 - 29 Glasgow Warriors
 
2. 2013/2014 Season
 
Fri 6 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 22 - 15 Cardiff Blues
 
Fri 13 Sep, 19:05
Ulster Rugby 12 - 13 Glasgow Warriors
 
Fri 20 Sep, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 12 - 6 Leinster Rugby
 
Fri 27 Sep, 19:30
Zebre 17 - 24 Glasgow Warriors
 
Sat 5 Oct, 18:30
Scarlets 12 - 17 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 25 Oct, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 6 - 13 Munster Rugby

Sat 2 Nov, 17:00
Connacht Rugby 12 - 19 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 22 Nov, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors 8 - 23 Newport Gwent Dragons

Fri 29 Nov, 19:05
Ospreys 16 - 28 Glasgow Warriors

Fri 20 Dec, 19:35
Glasgow Warriors P - P Benetton Treviso

Thu 26 Dec 15:05
Edinburgh Rugby 16 - 20 Glasgow Warriors

Wed 1 Jan 18:05
Glasgow Warriors P - P Edinburgh Rugby

3. 2013/2014 Season - Next 3 Games
 
Sun 9 Feb 14:00
Glasgow Warriors v Connacht Rugby

Sat 15 Feb 18:30
Cardiff Blues v Glasgow Warriors

Sun 23 Feb 14:30
Newport Gwent Dragons   v   Glasgow Warriors
 
Any and all patter about these teams is welcome.
 
Any jingoism, sledging or graceless kicking of anyone whilst they are up or down will see posts deleted.
 
Be gracious and be constructive.

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

Potential starting xv
1 ?
2 Fraser Brown
3 Moray Low(local lad)
4 Fraser Mackenzie
5 Adam Sinclair
6 Kieran Low or Scott Newlands
7 John Hardie
8 Blair Cowan
9 Chris Cusiter
10 Ruraidh Jackson
11 Damian Hoyland
12 ?
13 Robbie Fergusson
14 Matty Russell from Scotland RL
15 Steve Maccoll

Not to be negative but just because players are eligible for Scotland doesn't necessarily mean they'd be willing to join a scratch team cobbled together in deepest darkest Aberdeen. For example those 2 seem to be getting decent game time at London Irish, I'm not sure the prospect of a move to some pro 12 newbies would be particularly appealing. Just something I think needs to be considered when talking about setting up a new side, how much of a struggle is it going to be to attract the players they would need? Obviously the younger guys looking for game time would be keen, but what about more established players already playing at a good standard elsewhere?

[George Carlin]

I have also never properly understood in which league a new pro team would play, exactly?

[Nematode]

TRIO SIGN

http://www.edinburghrugby.org/news/14/02/17/scots-qualified-trio-sign

Scottish qualified - we have a Solomons imposter

[RDW]

All are young and SQ, with varying levels of experience. Nothing to get massively excited about, but will add some squad depth. One of the props is almost 20 stone, but the outside back guy is pretty tiny at 5ft 9. What is an 'outside back' anyway??

Allan Dell (21), prop

Born: 16 March 1992 in Humansdrop

Height: 6ft (1.85m), weight: 17st 9lb (112kg)

Honours: South Africa Schools, South Africa U16, U18, U20 (2012 Junior World Championship winner).



Simon Berghan (23), prop

Born: 7/12/1990 in Christchurch

Height: 6’3” (1.93m), weight: 19st 12lb (126kg)

Clubs: Shirley Boys High, Sydenham (captain), Crusaders Knights

Honours: Canterbury age-grades/academy, Canterbury (ITM Cup)



Nick McLennan (25), outside back

Born: 23/06/1988 in Oamaru

Height: 5ft 9in (1.8m), weight: 14st (89kg)

Clubs: North Otago, Hawke’s Bay

Honours: Canterbury Colts (player of the year, 2010), Canterbury age-grades/academy, Crusaders Knights

[Majestic83]

Allan dell looks a very good signing. World Cup winner with boks u20s and in the sharks squad at the moment. From what I just read quickly he seems to be highly thought off in South Africa.

[Majestic83]

The signing of two props makes me think Geoff cross will be moving on at the end of the season?

[RDW]

The signing of two props makes me think Geoff cross will be moving on at the end of the season?

I dunno, we're still pretty light at prop.  in Dickinson, Blaauw. Nel and Cross we have 4 decent props, but after that it is a sharp drop to young guys or apprentices.  Lewis Niven is there too but he's never really had much of a chance, and isn't really a youngster any more, just about to turn 26 (which is still a baby in propping years mind).

I wonder what Alex Allan and Robin Hislop will make of these signings.

[Majestic83]

Think Solomon's isn't a big Cross fan and with the World Cup a year away Cross will want regular game time to secure his spot. Unlikely to get any more game time at Edinburgh with these new arrivals.

[tigertattie]

Soooooooooo

With Edinburgh helping out Glasgow by loaning them Lee Jones, will Glasgow return the favour and loan us Finn Russell?

Leave Duncy and Rhubard to fight out the 10 spot at the weedge, Russell and A N Other to fight it out at Edinburgh?????

Tongue in cheek I know, but the more I think about it, the more it actually makes sense!

[Nematode]

Not that excited after seeing this in more detail. Yes they are SQ but what does it say about the view of the SRU who pay the wages of these imports on the state of the club game and development of young Scottish players here?

[Nematode]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

[Majestic83]

Not that excited after seeing this in more detail. Yes they are SQ but what does it say about the view of the SRU who pay the wages of these imports on the state of the club game and development of young Scottish players here?  

True but at least for once they are sq and dell looks a v good prospect. The other two not so sure.

[funnyExiledScot]

Well that's interesting - three new players, all SQ and all at a really good age to come over.

Bit of a blow for young Alex Allan I suspect, and this doesn't bode particularly well for Geoff Cross either, who Solomons clearly doesn't rate.

Still, these guys are all SQ so are expanding the group of players available to Vern.

I'll whisper it quietly, particularly in the light of Edinburgh's league position, but we're getting close to the sort of depth we need to have at the two pro teams to start project planning and saving for a 3rd region. It should be a long pipeline, and we still need to knock the existing debt at the SRU, and make sure the new region is funded properly, but the ground work should commence shortly.

[funnyExiledScot]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

Glad to hear it. I've been banging on about his potential for ages.

[MacKnocked-on]

Very interesting article in Scotland on Sunday yesterday about Edinburgh Accies' development plans and readiness to become a professional/semi-pro club. They don't seem to be getting much SRU support in their efforts but the point is made that what would happen to the Scottish game if the Rabo were to collapse and Edinburgh and Glasgow didn't have a competition to play in? Would the Scotland team be better served ultimately by the creation of a professional domestic league, more playing opportunites for a far wider group of players than can currently get game time for Edinburgh and Glasgow, almost a return to the days when the likes of Heriots, Melrose, Hawick etc provided the Scotland players?

[funnyExiledScot]

I think if we split the Scottish game back to the old clubs, all that would happen is that any Scottish player even remotely useful would head to England and France.

We must remember why we ended up where we did. Players need regular competition of a high standard. The SH have taught us this over and over again. We probably have about 2.5 sides' worth of decent players in Scotland, and when I say decent, I don't mean international class. Dividing that pool into 8 or so club sides would horribly dilute the quality of the side. Ryan Grant isn't going to enhance his career by playing props of the calibre of Jack Gilding and worse.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

Glad to hear it. I've been banging on about his potential for ages.

[MacKnocked-on]

I think if we split the Scottish game back to the old clubs, all that would happen is that any Scottish player even remotely useful would head to England and France.

We must remember why we ended up where we did. Players need regular competition of a high standard. The SH have taught us this over and over again. We probably have about 2.5 sides' worth of decent players in Scotland, and when I say decent, I don't mean international class. Dividing that pool into 8 or so club sides would horribly dilute the quality of the side. Ryan Grant isn't going to enhance his career by playing props of the calibre of Jack Gilding and worse.

I think the issue is what are the alternatives if, for whatever reason, the Rabo collapses and we find ourselves with no where for Edinburgh or Glasgow to play apart from perhaps a few fixtures in some European competition. If there is no league then we will need to consider a more professional domestic club system regardless of the drawbacks as you've highlighted.

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

[funnyExiledScot]

It's a fair point MacKnocked-on, let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

We should be making the point firmly that the Rabo12 is as much our league as it is anyone else's, and any suggestion that the Welsh, Irish and Italians are free to do as they please should be rejected as bluff, bluster and bullying.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

It's a fair point MacKnocked-on, let's just hope it doesn't come to that.

We should be making the point firmly that the Rabo12 is as much our league as it is anyone else's, and any suggestion that the Welsh, Irish and Italians are free to do as they please should be rejected as bluff, bluster and bullying.

Indeed, fES, why not just get the head coach of the Georgian international team tell them that it would be 'too difficult'   

[funnyExiledScot]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

Woah there. What's that 8 letter word beginning with "e" you just used there?? He's played a combined total of nearly 100 minutes of pro rugby at stand-off. I've seen enough.

[Nematode]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

In SCOTLAND, who is the better stand off you're thinking about? (That excludes Millar and Heathcote btw)

[EWT Spoons]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

In SCOTLAND, who is the better stand off you're thinking about? (That excludes Millar and Heathcote btw)

How many pro games has Russell played?

[Nematode]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

In SCOTLAND, who is the better stand off you're thinking about? (That excludes Millar and Heathcote btw)

How many pro games has Russell played?

5 - but he's better than Jackson and I'd say better than Weir atm. Oh, and Scott Wight   

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

In SCOTLAND, who is the better stand off you're thinking about? (That excludes Millar and Heathcote btw)

How many pro games has Russell played?

5 - but he's better than Jackson and I'd say better than Weir atm. Oh, and Scott Wight   

I would start Russell next week against the Dragons as I would like to see him play the next couple. Not sure comparing Russell (v Cardiff) and Weir (v Ireland and England) is fair.

[RDW]

Best 10 in Scotland? You've obviously not seen Piers Francis play.

Actually, I can't even joke about that.   

[George Carlin]

Not that excited after seeing this in more detail. Yes they are SQ but what does it say about the view of the SRU who pay the wages of these imports on the state of the club game and development of young Scottish players here?  

I don't think that the two are related, Mr Tode.

They are rated well enough to effectively bring them here on trial and as they are SQ immediately I don't think they are any less worthy of development or consideration than any of our EDPs who happen to have been in the country for longer. The simple fact remains that our academy systems and youth development programmes are deficient and do not offer intensive physical conditioning or high tempo, pressurised, regular gametime for our guys in the crucial 12-18 age bracket.  I think that this is a good way to minimise these deficiencies until such time as our approach is more structured and better resourced.

[EWT Spoons]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

In SCOTLAND, who is the better stand off you're thinking about? (That excludes Millar and Heathcote btw)

How many pro games has Russell played?

5 - but he's better than Jackson and I'd say better than Weir atm. Oh, and Scott Wight   

Has he started all of those 5 and were they all at 10?

I only ask because I seem to recall him playing at 12 on occasions. Either way I would agree that it's far too early to say he's the best 10 in Scotland. He certainly has potential, but all of Weir, Jackson and Tonks have looked good for 5 games at some point in their careers.

Fingers crossed he continues to develop. You never know at some point down the line we could have 3 half decent 10s (Miller, Heathcote & Russell) vying for a Scotland spot (4 if Robinson moves over), which is in contrast to the current situation.

[Nematode]

Not that excited after seeing this in more detail. Yes they are SQ but what does it say about the view of the SRU who pay the wages of these imports on the state of the club game and development of young Scottish players here?  

I don't think that the two are related, Mr Tode.

They are rated well enough to effectively bring them here on trial and as they are SQ immediately I don't think they are any less worthy of development or consideration than any of our EDPs who happen to have been in the country for longer. The simple fact remains that our academy systems and youth development programmes are deficient and do not offer intensive physical conditioning or high tempo, pressurised, regular gametime for our guys in the crucial 12-18 age bracket.  I think that this is a good way to minimise these deficiencies until such time as our approach is more structured and better resourced.

Fair point.

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Finn Russell is the best 10 in Scotland atm.

He did well when he came on, but nowhere near enough evidence at the moment to make that kind of statement, IMHO.

In SCOTLAND, who is the better stand off you're thinking about? (That excludes Millar and Heathcote btw)

How many pro games has Russell played?

5 - but he's better than Jackson and I'd say better than Weir atm. Oh, and Scott Wight   

Has he started all of those 5 and were they all at 10?

I only ask because I seem to recall him playing at 12 on occasions.  Either way I would agree that it's far too early to say he's the best 10 in Scotland.  He certainly has potential, but all of Weir, Jackson and Tonks have looked good for 5 games at some point in their careers.

Fingers crossed he continues to develop.  You never know at some point down the line we could have 3 half decent 10s (Miller, Heathcote & Russell) vying for a Scotland spot (4 if Robinson moves over), which is in contrast to the current situation.

He has started one game and that was at 12. He has also played off the bench there in a couple his replacement apperances.

[funnyExiledScot]

Thanks DOT. Nice little fact that. He's started once, and not at 10. Brilliant!

[George Carlin]

Thanks DOT. Nice little fact that. He's started once, and not at 10. Brilliant!

[Nematode]

Ruairdh Jackson has played 76 games in the Pro12. Yet we'd all resoundingly say that right now Finn Russell is a better player than him with far greater potential.

I perhaps didn't explain my assumption clearly enough. On form and future, I think Russell's the best in Scotland. Atm yes, he needs more game time, but I believe he has it in him to be better than Weir.

Russell was composed, got his kicks and brought spark and sensibility to the team at FH, heavily involved in several breaks. Also, he didn't gift Cardiff a try...

He upstaged Jackson who now must be 3rd in line at Glasgow and out of Scottish contention. Time for the door to be creaked open I think.

[Dorothy_Mantooth]

Ruairdh Jackson has played 76 games in the Pro12. Yet we'd all resoundingly say that right now Finn Russell is a better player than him with far greater potential.

I perhaps didn't explain my assumption clearly enough. On form and future, I think Russell's the best in Scotland. Atm yes, he needs more game time, but I believe he has it in him to be better than Weir.

Russell was composed, got his kicks and brought spark and sensibility to the team at FH, heavily involved in several breaks. Also, he didn't gift Cardiff a try...

He upstaged Jackson who now must be 3rd in line at Glasgow and out of Scottish contention. Time for the door to be creaked open I think.

Get no arguement from me on Jackson.

Russell has impressed when given the opportunity and should be involved more going forward, assuming he earns his chance. As for Weir, it was only a couple of years ago that there were many singing his praises, in much the same way you are of Russell now.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

No, no, lads - you must all follow the fES way - a minimum of 76,854 Rabo appearances are required before a player can even secure an A game start - that is the law

[George Carlin]

No, no, lads - you must all follow the fES Law - a minimum of 76,854 Rabo appearances are required before a player can even secure an A game start - that is the law

For completeness, regular readers of these boards will be familiar with the two principal derogations from FES' Law - (a) the Gilchrist Protocol and (b) the Hidalgo-Clyne Exception. Adherence to both is mandatory. Resistance is useless.

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

GC,

you forgot about fES' fondness for selecting Tonks at 10 after 2 and a half games there for the MFLs !

[George Carlin]

I just wasn't sure if the Tonks Deviation was official yet.
I know that it has been used increasingly of late.

[funnyExiledScot]

  

This is yet another example of bullying, bluster and bluff.

Bullying - I will not be dictated to from on high by some Jonny-come-lately tax dodging Moderator, and an ancient Devonian deserter. The days of such diktats are over. Neither of you speak for the ordinary people of Scotland, like me.

Bluster - because I know deep down you share my sceptism about these new kids who crop up every season and play the odd flash moment off the bench. If you were lucky enough to fill the hotseat soon to be vacated by the Australian buffoon, you'll realise pretty quickly the folly of sticking young Russell against Sexton et al, and you'll be applying fEs law before you know it. You know it makes sense, and having a contrary view is contrary to the spirit and the letter of common sense.

Bluff - because what you say now about Gilchrist and the metrosexual one, and what you'll say after the next Lions tour, are completely different.

[Nematode]

  

This is yet another example of bullying, bluster and bluff.

Bullying - I will not be dictated to from on high by some Jonny-come-lately tax dodging Moderator, and an ancient Devonian deserter. The days of such diktats are over. Neither of you speak for the ordinary people of Scotland, like me.

Bluster - because I know deep down you share my sceptism about these new kids who crop up every season and play the odd flash moment off the bench. If you were lucky enough to fill the hotseat soon to be vacated by the Australian buffoon, you'll realise pretty quickly the folly of sticking young Russell against Sexton et al, and you'll be applying fEs law before you know it. You know it makes sense, and having a contrary view is contrary to the spirit and the letter of common sense.

Bluff - because what you say now about Gilchrist and the metrosexual one, and what you'll say after the next Lions tour, are completely different.

That's bang out of order to use such a filthy SJ word. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[funnyExiledScot]

Hang-on now, that's in a quite different context. When SJ uses the word, he's referring to players like Ford, Lawson, Hamilton, Cusiter and S Lamont. You know, "kids".

I'm talking about players who wouldn't get into see Driving Miss Daisy without both parents being present.

[Nematode]

Hang-on now, that's in a quite different context. When SJ uses the word, he's referring to players like Ford, Lawson, Hamilton, Cusiter and S Lamont. You know, "kids".

I'm talking about players who wouldn't get into see Driving Miss Daisy without both parents being present.

The word gives me shivers   

[George Carlin]

  

This is yet another example of bullying, bluster and bluff.

Bullying - I will not be dictated to from on high by some Jonny-come-lately tax dodging Moderator, and an ancient Devonian deserter. The days of such diktats are over. Neither of you speak for the ordinary people of Scotland, like me.

Bluster - because I know deep down you share my sceptism about these new kids who crop up every season and play the odd flash moment off the bench. If you were lucky enough to fill the hotseat soon to be vacated by the Australian buffoon, you'll realise pretty quickly the folly of sticking young Russell against Sexton et al, and you'll be applying fEs law before you know it. You know it makes sense, and having a contrary view is contrary to the spirit and the letter of common sense.

Bluff - because what you say now about Gilchrist and the metrosexual one, and what you'll say after the next Lions tour, are completely different.

  
I'm so upset by that I'll have to drive my Maserati to my favourite restaurant and have a long, hard look at my life over a Wagyu sirloin and a punchy little Haut Brion '85.

[funnyExiledScot]

Now you've just made me hungry!

[cakeordeath]

Chris Cusiter is off to Sale Sharks. Bit of a surprise
http://www.glasgowwarriors.org/news/14/02/18/cusiter-join-sale

[BigGee]

Well so Cus is off to Sale. Did not really see that one coming, apparently Laidlaw was in the frame down there as well but again if you think it through it makes a bit of sense for both parties.

Cus is a very good player and will no doubt put in a very good shift for them if he remains injury free. That of course is a big if, as he has sufferred more than his fair share in his time. Could Glasgow afford to take a risk and give a big contract to a 31 year old who has proved to be a bit fragile?

Glasgow actually have too many good scrum halves chasing too few games at the moment. This move will free things up, Niko and Henry will provide the mainstay and it allows a youngster to come through as well. Price maybe, or maybe McConnell will get another chance. They might bring on another youngster from the u20's as well.

Its the harsh reality of scottish rugby that we do need to move the older, more expensive players on. I very much doubt that we could have, or would have been willing to match what Sale will pay and from the players point of view, he has to think of his pension as well. This may well be his last professional contract. He may also feel he needs one last challenge in the game. He is someone who has not been afraid to move before and it has undoubtably benefitted him. Others should take note.

Apparently Glasgow also signing the fastest man in rugby, Carlin Isles. A bit raw at 15's, but with pace like that surely someone who is worth a punt. a crowd pleaser if ever there was one!

[cakeordeath]

Apparently Glasgow also signing the fastest man in rugby, Carlin Isles. A bit raw at 15's, but with pace like that surely someone who is worth a punt. a crowd pleaser if ever there was one!

But is he faster than Lamont, that's the real question.

[BigGee]

Yes I think its fair to say that Sean won't be able to claim to be the fastest man in the Glasgow squad any more!

Maitland, Hoggy and Isles. Now that is a fairly pacy back three!

[demosthenes]

Better improve the playing surface otherwise he will go no-where quickly at home!

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