England vs Ireland, Part 2

First topic message reminder :

You beauties...

What a crackin game....

What a pleasure it was to two sides attempting to scrimmage and not buy cheap penalties by continuously dropping them on engagement. Hats of to both sides. Also pleasantly surprised by how well Thomas went in the scrums when he came on.

Schmidt is being criticised already? Really?

You guys are starting a new era, retiring the old guard and bringing in new players...are you expecting to be world beaters straight away?

You've impressed everyone so far...but yesterday came up against a side that is a bit further ahead in their journey and slowly starting to show that they are serious team (though still not nearly the finished article).

It was a collosal edge of the seat game. Some Ireland players made mistakes, some England players did.

It annoys me though that England come under such vicious criticism because they won...players should have been carded, ref is biased etc etc.
Its totally unnecessary.

GunsGerms wrote:You are singling him out. The fact is Darcy has been one of our better players in the last three or so games he has played in. He is in the team on merit.

I D'Arcy has played fine although he is not the force he once was. I just want to see Marshall be given more of a run alongside BOD while he is still around. Ireland are not developing the side by the continuation of selecting players who will be gone in 1 year. Its either BOD or D'Arcy that has to make way to introduce the new generation and to be fair, I would prefer it be D'Arcy who made way as BOD is the better option to help bring in the new generation.

A great match yesterday but Schmidt can have plan A Leinster style and plan B Munster ,advancing mauls and England pinged for collapsing giving penalties.But realistically England were inches from another 8 points ( penalty off the post and May's nearly try ) So a far result I think.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Schmidt is being criticised already? Really?

You guys are starting a new era, retiring the old guard and bringing in new players...are you expecting to be world beaters straight away?

You've impressed everyone so far...but yesterday came up against a side that is a bit further ahead in their journey and slowly starting to show that they are serious team (though still not nearly the finished article).

It was a collosal edge of the seat game. Some Ireland players made mistakes, some England players did.

It annoys me though that England come under such vicious criticism because they won...players should have been carded, ref is biased etc etc.
Its totally unnecessary.

Maybe you've been longer on the threads (yesterday?)  but I haven't seen many Irish people say England didn't deserve to get out on top.?

Anyway, spot on about the rest of it

Are english fans happy with the Farrell-Twelvetrees axis? I'm gonna be honest, I think they are totally holding the team back. The opportunities butchered by Farrell especially are almost unforgivable.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Notch wrote:I do think he will start Marshall against Italy Nachos, but I also think the criticism of D'Arcy is based on him being a punching bag when we lose not based on him playing badly.

D'Arcy made all his tackles while BOD missed several. D'Arcys distribution was actually very good and he crossed the mainline most of the time he carried the ball. He was probably our best outside back after Kearney.

We do have a problem with lack of penetration in the centres but D'Arcy played well enough that he doesn't deserve to be singled out.

I really like D'Arcy, always have done but its clear that he is far from his best and that's not singling him out, its me questioning why a player that is past his best and not going to play in another year is being kept in the side ahead of a currently better player in Marshall who is the future and needs to learn the ropes from the great BOD.

I am a fierce Munster fan, I know, but I was also questioning DK when he continued to select ROG ahead of the better option in Sexton.

Darcy has already said he is playing on until the RWC. He is obviously hoping to get on the RWC squad.

That would be a mistake in my opinion. D'Arcy is an Ireland legend but age catch's up with everyone. I have no probs with D'Arcy being in the squad for his experience but I would rather see the younger generation get starts and experience.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

The elusive "unseen work".........yea he certaibly did plenty of things that were unseen!

Played his part in a 3 point game  He's young, he's skinny, he needs feeding.  He's grand.  Lessons a learnin'.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Are english fans happy with the Farrell-Twelvetrees axis?  I'm gonna be honest, I think they are totally holding the team back.  The opportunities butchered by Farrell especially are almost unforgivable.

I thought it was just me?

SecretFly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Schmidt is being criticised already? Really?

You guys are starting a new era, retiring the old guard and bringing in new players...are you expecting to be world beaters straight away?

You've impressed everyone so far...but yesterday came up against a side that is a bit further ahead in their journey and slowly starting to show that they are serious team (though still not nearly the finished article).

It was a collosal edge of the seat game. Some Ireland players made mistakes, some England players did.

It annoys me though that England come under such vicious criticism because they won...players should have been carded, ref is biased etc etc.
Its totally unnecessary.

Maybe you've been longer on the threads (yesterday?)  but I haven't seen many Irish people say England didn't deserve to get out on top.?

Anyway, spot on about the rest of it

No mate the Irish guys in general have been very good...its a few of the others that annoy...but I should expect it on here.

Nachos Jones wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Nachos Jones wrote:

Notch wrote:I do think he will start Marshall against Italy Nachos, but I also think the criticism of D'Arcy is based on him being a punching bag when we lose not based on him playing badly.

D'Arcy made all his tackles while BOD missed several. D'Arcys distribution was actually very good and he crossed the mainline most of the time he carried the ball. He was probably our best outside back after Kearney.

We do have a problem with lack of penetration in the centres but D'Arcy played well enough that he doesn't deserve to be singled out.

I really like D'Arcy, always have done but its clear that he is far from his best and that's not singling him out, its me questioning why a player that is past his best and not going to play in another year is being kept in the side ahead of a currently better player in Marshall who is the future and needs to learn the ropes from the great BOD.

I am a fierce Munster fan, I know, but I was also questioning DK when he continued to select ROG ahead of the better option in Sexton.

Darcy has already said he is playing on until the RWC. He is obviously hoping to get on the RWC squad.

That would be a mistake in my opinion. D'Arcy is an Ireland legend but age catch's up with everyone. I have no probs with D'Arcy being in the squad for his experience but I would rather see the younger generation get starts and experience.

Well when Olding is back from injury he'll get his chance   Honestly though there is nothing between Marshall and Darcy and I'm happy for either or to start. The problem for me is the lack of dynamism in the backrow and having Trimble and Kearney on the wings. Both have played well but I think they are too similar to have on the wings together, you need a Zebo or a fitzgerald to mix things up.

englandglory4ever wrote:What a pleasure it was to two sides attempting to scrimmage and not buy cheap penalties by continuously dropping them on engagement. Hats of to both sides. Also pleasantly surprised by how well Thomas went in the scrums when he came on.

Agreed. I'm sure the pitch, which looked amazing, must of help.

Apart from the Aviva the rest have been poor which is a shame for the game as a whole when you think this is a top table competition.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Well when Olding is back from injury he'll get his chance   Honestly though there is nothing between Marshall and Darcy and I'm happy for either or to start. The problem for me is the lack of dynamism in the backrow and having Trimble and Kearney on the wings. Both have played well but I think they are too similar to have on the wings together, you need a Zebo or a fitzgerald to mix things up.

Agree with this, Kearney and Trimble have been excellent but Ireland do need someone like Zebo to run amok.

I actually do feel that loosing by only 3 points flattered Ireland yesterday. England were the much better team and for a few simple mistakes could have turned over Ireland badly. England certainly miss Dan Cole though, their scrum is not the same without him and that really helped Ireland get on top in that area.

kingelderfield wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Are english fans happy with the Farrell-Twelvetrees axis?  I'm gonna be honest, I think they are totally holding the team back.  The opportunities butchered by Farrell especially are almost unforgivable.

I thought it was just me?

One thing at a time we have a very new back line with centres that have barely played together. I guess it is a sign of strength that we are looking for tweaks here and there but I would keep the line the same & await for the injured players to come back into contention. Ford will hopefully get some game time against Wales and we should take it from there.

Nachos Jones wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
Well when Olding is back from injury he'll get his chance   Honestly though there is nothing between Marshall and Darcy and I'm happy for either or to start. The problem for me is the lack of dynamism in the backrow and having Trimble and Kearney on the wings. Both have played well but I think they are too similar to have on the wings together, you need a Zebo or a fitzgerald to mix things up.

Agree with this, Kearney and Trimble have been excellent but Ireland do need someone like Zebo to run amok.

I actually do feel that loosing by only 3 points flattered Ireland yesterday. England were the much better team and for a few simple mistakes could have turned over Ireland badly. England certainly miss Dan Cole though, their scrum is not the same without him and that really helped Ireland get on top in that area.

And if Trimble had have been more accurate on two occasions in the first half Ireland would have scored two tries. Its been forgotten about because England butchered chances themselves. 3 points is a fair reflection of the match. Swings and roundabouts my friend, swings and roundabouts.

And jumpers for goalposts. Feel free to add your own cliches where appropriate. No hashtags, they are the devils work #hashtagsareforbellends

The sooner Jared Payne and Olding can play 13 the better. D'Arcy had one of his better game making ground on the crash but could do with replacing him too. The kicking gameplan was dire, and when your two cetnres have little threat you really can't expect much from the back three.

Whatever John Plumtree is getting paid, double it.

SecretFly wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Schmidt is being criticised already? Really?

You guys are starting a new era, retiring the old guard and bringing in new players...are you expecting to be world beaters straight away?

You've impressed everyone so far...but yesterday came up against a side that is a bit further ahead in their journey and slowly starting to show that they are serious team (though still not nearly the finished article).

It was a collosal edge of the seat game. Some Ireland players made mistakes, some England players did.

It annoys me though that England come under such vicious criticism because they won...players should have been carded, ref is biased etc etc.
Its totally unnecessary.

Maybe you've been longer on the threads (yesterday?)  but I haven't seen many Irish people say England didn't deserve to get out on top.?

Anyway, spot on about the rest of it

Yep I have to say it's been one of the most good-spirited threads on such a crunch game in a long long while. Massive credit to both sides and spot on about the scrum being contested by both sides without tiring re-sets.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Are english fans happy with the Farrell-Twelvetrees axis?  I'm gonna be honest, I think they are totally holding the team back.  The opportunities butchered by Farrell especially are almost unforgivable.

I actually think Twelvetrees is settling into the role well. He'll get better the more he plays. He has straightened the attack well when he's had the chance, something we've always been appalling at when required. I think 36 is a fixture at 12.

Farrell on the other hand has added to his game hugely. What he hasn't yet developed in the instinct for when to employ those tactics. That has always been a feature of his game, that he isn't particularly fluid. I think he'll develop in that regard.

If you contrast that with George Ford however, well he's the epitome of an instinctive player. He could do with some of Farrell's mental strength and physicality but he's on another level in terms of when to run/kick/pass. If he gets the opportunity behind this pack I believe he'll be the one to take England's game on to the next level. With a mid-field of 36/Tuilagi and May/Yarde/Wade on the wings that could be a very potent combination.

What is Schmidt going to do about his team's average age before 2015? They are getting on a bit and time is short to blood a whole crop of replacement youngsters.

When you look at, an average age of 29 and still 18 months to go, they are going to be a bit long in the tooth by the time the RWC starts. Is this the Old'un generation that replaces the Golden one?

For instance a twenty-year-old replacement for BOD will reduce the average age by barely a year. The average age of rookie Irish internationals is a shade over 25 http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/28775.php#.UwoSFoXMdD1 .

Surely JS has considered this?

D'Arcy and BOD will be repalced by guys who are in their early to mid twenties (Marshall and Olding would be 24 and 22, Payne, 29).

Mike Ross may be replaced by Martin Moore who would be 24 (getting gametime). POC is lasting until then (Ryan would be 31) and Cronin (28) is blooded to repalce Best if needs be. It's not a massive problem with a couple of issues.

Also can we stop this golden generation shoite? There's more depth in Ireland now then ever before

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:What is Schmidt going to do about his team's average age before 2015? They are getting on a bit and time is short to blood a whole crop of replacement youngsters.

When you look at, an average age of 29 and still 18 months to go, they are going to be a bit long in the tooth by the time the RWC starts. Is this the Old'un generation that replaces the Golden one?

For instance a twenty-year-old replacement for BOD will reduce the average age by barely a year. The average age of rookie Irish internationals is a shade over 25 http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/28775.php#.UwoSFoXMdD1 .

Surely JS has considered this?

Surely he has.......... He's only a wet-week in the job.  Give him time.  Lancaster feels he's only beginning to stamp his real impression on his side after that one game against Ireland.  He took his time,you might say....

Schmidt is doing fine so far in his first 6N.  The age profile will go down...not that it really matters considering the team that played yesterday, and the game they gave England's fine young things.

Average age shouldnt be a concern at all. What should be a concern is finding replacements for those certain not to make the world cup. It doesnt matter if those replacements are 30 or 20, the question is will they be good enough and will they have time to integrate into the team.
Ireland have had the luxury of the same center partnership for most games in the last million years now, replacing both of them (if they have to) is certainly a thing.
That said though a good portion of the Irishish fans have been begging for the end of darcy for years now, so we can only assume theres several world class 12s ready to jump straight in.

Thomond wrote:D'Arcy and BOD will be repalced by guys who are in their early to mid twenties (Marshall and Olding would be 24 and 22, Payne, 29).

Mike Ross may be replaced by Martin Moore who would be 24 (getting gametime). POC is lasting until then (Ryan would be 31) and Cronin (28)  is blooded to repalce Best if needs be. It's not a massive problem with a couple of issues.

Also can we stop this golden generation shoite? There's more depth in Ireland now then ever before

Quite frankly I'll choose to call a pig a pig even if it wearing lipstick if I want to. That's my prerogative on an open forum.

(Marshall and Olding would be 24 and 22, Payne, 29).

Mike Ross may be replaced by Martin Moore who would be 24 (getting gametime). POC is lasting until then (Ryan would be 31) and Cronin (28)

Then (2015) or now?

Portnoy's you seem unusually concerned??  Write a stinkin' letter to the IRFU about it and I'm sure they'll get back to you.

I don't think Gordon D'Arcy has ever been a world class 12 (they were a world class partnership yes but D'Arcy wasn't a guy who would demand a spot in the best sides). If he was it probably hasn't been since 2006 so we're good on that front

Fair enough, it's a ridiculous term but it's your right. All those ages are for 2015

I too thought 36 looked good in spells and as said having Manu to come back (along with Corbs, Croft and Parling) and Wade/Yarde to further look at - things are looking OK at the moment.

What a match yesterday and yes I agree that it is a pleasure to have a largely good natured board/thread this morning. I love the pragmatic way that the Irish posters are busily getting on with fixing the team - not that it needs much fixing from where I'm standing!

Great stuff! Looking forward to next round - is it really 2 weeks...

stub wrote:I too thought 36 looked good in spells and as said having Manu to come back (along with Corbs, Croft and Parling) and Wade/Yarde to further look at -  things are looking  OK at the moment.

What a match yesterday and yes I agree that it is a pleasure to have a largely good natured board/thread this morning. I love the pragmatic way that the Irish posters are busily getting on with fixing the team - not that it needs much fixing from where I'm standing!

Great stuff! Looking forward to next round - is it really 2 weeks...

I actually think Croft and Parling are going to struggle to get into this team at the moment. Lawes has added everything which Parling lacked, the aggression, carrying and physicality. Wood looks settled at 6 but I could see Croft coming back in for him at some point. It's a case of either starting him or not at all though. The power combination of 19. D Attwood and 20. Ben Morgan is really working for England at the moment and it's what we need to build on.

Slot Parling and Croft onto that bench and it suddenly becomes massively de-powered and offers little impact.

These two week breaks (whilst understandable) are irritating when the mood is on for another round of games...and I think all round, that mood is there.

Yeah, it's been largely good-natured on here which is nice.

Those Irish do jabber on though, don't they? I hope they're paying extra for using up all this cyberspace

Chjw131 wrote:

stub wrote:I too thought 36 looked good in spells and as said having Manu to come back (along with Corbs, Croft and Parling) and Wade/Yarde to further look at -  things are looking  OK at the moment.

What a match yesterday and yes I agree that it is a pleasure to have a largely good natured board/thread this morning. I love the pragmatic way that the Irish posters are busily getting on with fixing the team - not that it needs much fixing from where I'm standing!

Great stuff! Looking forward to next round - is it really 2 weeks...

I actually think Croft and Parling are going to struggle to get into this team at the moment. Lawes has added everything which Parling lacked, the aggression, carrying and physicality. Wood looks settled at 6 but I could see Croft coming back in for him at some point. It's a case of either starting him or not at all though. The power combination of 19. D Attwood and 20. Ben Morgan is really working for England at the moment and it's what we need to build on.

Slot Parling and Croft onto that bench and it suddenly becomes massively de-powered and offers little impact.

Yeah - you could well be right but I reckon it's quite a good problem for England to have - so long as the best choices are made I guess. If nothing else it keeps up the pressure on the likes of Lawes to work hard and perform well.

Now you know why POM loves havin' the craic with refs, Cyril. He loves chattin' - it's in his nature.

So what do the English think is going to be the situation when Wales hit town? Another win (England)? A good win?

SF - more of the same as we saw against you lot! A super tense close passionate game that could go either way. I think England will shade it again, just.

Thomond wrote:The sooner Jared Payne and Olding can play 13 the better. D'Arcy had one of his better game making ground on the crash but could do with replacing him too. The kicking gameplan was dire, and when your two cetnres have little threat you really can't expect much from the back three.

Whatever John Plumtree is getting paid, double it.

If you wanted to see a textbook example of how to get your name erased off the squad list for Italy, you should've watched Luke Marshall and Darren Cave against Italy today. Shocker.

SF I should also add that it will be a tense affair in the stub residence with wife and son supporting Wales and daughter and me supporting England. Can't wait!

Oh..there'll be security in to keep you apart?
..... Expensive but safety is of paramont importance when watching rugby

SecretFly wrote:Oh..there'll be security in to keep you apart?
..... Expensive but safety is of paramont importance when watching rugby

Yes - we always invest in good security for these events... After all you know what the Welsh can be like at these times!!    

Notch wrote:

Thomond wrote:The sooner Jared Payne and Olding can play 13 the better. D'Arcy had one of his better game making ground on the crash but could do with replacing him too. The kicking gameplan was dire, and when your two cetnres have little threat you really can't expect much from the back three.

Whatever John Plumtree is getting paid, double it.

If you wanted to see a textbook example of how to get your name erased off the squad list for Italy, you should've watched Luke Marshall and Darren Cave against Italy today. Shocker.

??

Oh I get you now.

I can understand that some teams want to give players a good send off. The likes of BOD for instance yesterday. It was his last at Twickenham, seeing that he is retiring from international rugby at the end of the season.

But surely a coach's job is the running of the team that he is in charge of. Surely it is time for the likes of Darcey, and POC to think about calling it a day at the end of the season. Go out in a blaze of glory at the end of the 6ns. Do not try and hang on untill the end of the RWC next year.

Time for Ireland to bring in younger players in time for the RWC.

majesticimperialman wrote:I can understand that some teams want to give players a good send off. The likes of BOD for instance yesterday. It was his last at Twickenham, seeing that he is retiring from international rugby at the end of the season.

But surely a coach's job is the running of the team that he is in charge of. Surely it is time for the likes of Darcey, and POC to think about calling it a day at the end of the season. Go out in a blaze of glory at the end of the 6ns. Do not try and hang on untill the end of the RWC next year.

Time for Ireland to bring in younger players in time for the RWC.

That might very well be the plan.  But, apart from O'driscoll who was virtually under pressure now for two or three years to name his date, the rest are hardly going to announce anything yet.  That turns it into a retirement procession and loses a lot of much needed psychological punch for the team.

The Irish team will be changing.  Everyone knows it.  It'll happen either casually over the next few months or quite suddenly AFTER this 6N.
But unless BOD is injured, he'll play the French game anyway.  Might be rested for the Italy game.  Most people in Ireland have no issue with the final farewell tour (we owe him more than he owes us).  Schmidt asked him to stay on for another year.  He ain't going to be dropped.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Are english fans happy with the Farrell-Twelvetrees axis?  I'm gonna be honest, I think they are totally holding the team back.  The opportunities butchered by Farrell especially are almost unforgivable.

Totally agree with you on Farrell, 36 on the other hand, although not error free, is beginning to look the real deal. Farrell does many things well but does butcher opportunity after opportunity - if his Dad wasn't the coach I think he would have been dropped after the 1st half against Scotland. Burns has been left on the scrapheap of true talent but wrong bloodline.

majesticimperialman wrote:I can understand that some teams want to give players a good send off. The likes of BOD for instance yesterday. It was his last at Twickenham, seeing that he is retiring from international rugby at the end of the season.

But surely a coach's job is the running of the team that he is in charge of. Surely it is time for the likes of Darcey, and POC to think about calling it a day at the end of the season. Go out in a blaze of glory at the end of the 6ns. Do not try and hang on untill the end of the RWC next year.

Time for Ireland to bring in younger players in time for the RWC.

Agree about BOD and Darcey but I'd still have POC in any England side, first name on the team sheet in fact!

Zebo scores another try from inside his own half! Now joe are you going to keep leaving out the most exciting back we have?

There are a lot of valid reasons for bringing Zebo in, that try should not be one of them, just a broken field speed and one god awful attempt at a tackle. I would like to see him brought in though.

Nachos Jones wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do... it should be in readiness to be on the field!  

You talk about defence?  Fine, Murray does defence.  
You give a little bite at the lack of attack.  Fine, Boss would be better.

Balance, Sin.  
Which do you prefer?  
Defence?  
Well then thank Schmidt for emphasising it so far.  You and he should be best buddies really - tactically very close to each other

Murray does defence?  I don't think Mike Brown would agree with you there.  Murray was hugely culpable for England's try, he ought to have done much better.  It is not like Murray at all.  I wondered if he had a knock because he looked extremely laboured the rest of the match.  All the more reason to ask Schmidt why Boss didn't come on.  

Nothing to do with D'Arcy charging up out of the line, leaving a massive gap and tackling the wrong player then?

That does seem to be the general consensus but hookie couldnt bring himself to say that...

Thomond wrote:There are a lot of valid reasons for bringing Zebo in, that try should not be one of them, just a broken field speed and one god awful attempt at a tackle. I would like to see him brought in though.

Yeah Thomond...we know and ROG was shoite....   

Yeah, I still think Zebo should start in Round 4 but then I've been saying that from the start. He's been asked to respond and he's done that. This exclusion has lit a fire under him and he now has a chance of featuring in the last two games.

DOD, any winger worth his salt would have scored that try. His kicking, positioning and defence were great from what I say today. That's why I would like to see him brought in.

I've never said ROG was shoite, I've said overrated. He is Munster's greatest and probably Ireland's, but a guy with his limitations should never have been considered among the world's best. That was all I've said about him (and that he held Munster and Ireland back a bit which isn't too wrong)

Notch wrote:Yeah, I still think Zebo should start in Round 4 but then I've been saying that from the start. He's been asked to respond and he's done that. This exclusion has lit a fire under him and he now has a chance of featuring in the last two games.

I keep going back to the point that most people seem to have the attitude of "let some of the other candidates in now for the lesser game against Italy.  The main guys got as much as they could get up to this point - still very much in the running for the Championship with an okay points advantage for now.  So now let the underlings in to give the main guys a break"

Actually, the Italian game is now central in the whole show.  Not just because it is next game up but because Ireland have to do something they don't usually do against Italy - they have to try to humiliate Italy and score heavily.  Not a luxury - a requirement if we're serious about keeping in the hunt.  

So?  Will it really be a lesser game most seem to be preparing for?  This is a big game coming up and a big ask for perhaps players who will be getting a first taste at the 6N.  
The 'wiseness' of keeping a few players low on gametime up to now might not pay off.  If we win and score lowly against Italy then you can be certain that England will hunt them down with a determination to banjax anything we might do against the French the following week.

Italy - big BIG game.

Notch..Zebo is not doing anything different from last year...he scores tries, his positioning and tackling have been excellent for the last 12 months etc etc..there is no difference..