Tactical battles in the England vs Wales match...

Several key tactical decisions which need to be made.

For Wales:
- will they kick in-field as they usually do, given a much more dangerous than usual England back 3 who are all approaching 100m of carry per game each?
- or will they kick positionally and contest lineouts, not something they usually do? [more of an Irish plan]

i can see why they want to keep the ball in-field. pressure the catchers and hope for occasional knock-ons, then mess around with the scrum and try to convince the ref that it was them wot did it, get penalties and watch 1/2P convert. But with England's newish back 3 returning with interest, and supporting runners beginning to get the hang of it, will Wales stick with this tactic?

- will Wales contest English lineout ball, or try a defensive quick thrust into the lineout to drive the forming maul backwards before it gets going?
- i assume that given the speed of England's line defense, and the fact that France scored 2 quick grubber tries, Priestland and North are going to be attempting this rather frequently?

For England:
- will they continue with the rush defense quite as aggressively, knowing that Wales are certainly going to try to kick/chip through into space?
- i cant see England changing too much about their overall tempo, aggressive defense, and quick attacking game
- will England vary their kicking for a nice combo of in-field kicks, knowing its' coming back infield, in an attempt to fracture the centre of the field and open it up for Brown, May, Nowell? And occasional positional kicks to pressure the Welsh lineout?

Overall, England's gameplan is much less obvious, as the team is still fairly inexperienced. But they appear to back themselves to win the breakdown, and drive teams backwards in the tackle, which if they can continue to do, will make life very difficult for any opposition.

The scrum is going to be a massive battle. My gut feeling is that the current media coverage (even on the beeb) of how often the Welsh scrum goes to ground is going to swing interpretation in England's favour come next Saturday in the event of a zillion re-sets. Either way, this will be key.

'The scrum is going to be a massive battle. My gut feeling is that the current media coverage (even on the beeb) of how often the Welsh scrum goes to ground is going to swing interpretation in England's favour come next Saturday in the event of a zillion re-sets. Either way, this will be key'

You mean the odd 'insightful' comment made by nameless keyboard warriors ?

I'm just shocked and appalled the IRB has let the two props responsible for dragging the game into disrepute get away with it for over 10 years

calm down munk. not saying they are cheating, just that it even got scrutinised on a bbc article, and all good coaches use media to try to neutralise any potential areas of advantage at the breakdown or scrum where refereeing decisions are so key.

reality is that this is the first year without a "hit" and most scrums are much more stable.

quinsforever wrote:reality is that this is the first year without a "hit" and most scrums are much more stable.

You also have a majority of Hookers who've never 'hooked' before

Also, is knocking the ball back with your hand part of the new scrum laws ?

munkian wrote:

quinsforever wrote:reality is that this is the first year without a "hit" and most scrums are much more stable.

You also have a majority of Hookers who've never 'hooked' before

Also, is knocking the ball back with your hand part of the new scrum laws ?

It was part of the old scrum laws when the ref wasn't watching me.

gregortree wrote:

munkian wrote:

quinsforever wrote:reality is that this is the first year without a "hit" and most scrums are much more stable.

You also have a majority of Hookers who've never 'hooked' before

Also, is knocking the ball back with your hand part of the new scrum laws ?

It was part of the old scrum laws when the ref wasn't watching me.

So it should it should NOW be vilified and pointed out the authorities ?   

One thing is guaranteed about the Welsh game sadly...Preistland will still put up that 'Too far too chase...to close to make a territorial impact therefore giving away possesion and get the shortest guy in the backs who is also the last line of defense to hopelessly chase it' kick

Plus Wales will lose a few lineouts as per usual

Steffan wrote:One thing is guaranteed about the Welsh game sadly...Preistland will still put up that 'Too far too chase...to close to make a territorial impact therefore giving away possesion and get the shortest guy in the backs who is also the last line of defense to hopelessly chase it' kick

Plus Wales will lose a few lineouts as per usual

Least we seemed to have cut out the pointless missed passes..I hate those friggin things !

The backrow will be where this game is won and lost and I don't think we will get a level headed/bias aside conversation on that area.

The English think they have the best and that Rowbshaw and Co are far superior where has us Welsh know we have the best and that they are surperior   

They wont be when Morgan the Pie runs out of steam at 60 and Wood switches to 8...

The ball will be going very high to Jack Nowell all game so he can drop it over and over. Wales advantage in the back 3 is that the wingers are settled, good under the high ball, and more massive.

munkian wrote:They wont be when Morgan the Pie runs out of steam at 60 and Wood switches to 8...

Munkian,

I would still take Morgan for 60 over our replacements at 8 which are currently ???

Though did notice Ryan Jones played against Munster would be great if he was brought back into the squad.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:They wont be when Morgan the Pie runs out of steam at 60 and Wood switches to 8...

Munkian,

I would still take Morgan for 60 over our replacements at 8 which are currently ???

Though did notice Ryan Jones played against Munster would be great if he was brought back into the squad.

Taff Judas is dead to me   

Jughead also scored against Trevisio last match, I'd possibly have him on the bench over AWJ

Yeah Ryan Jones any day. Hell of a player.

munkian wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:They wont be when Morgan the Pie runs out of steam at 60 and Wood switches to 8...

Munkian,

I would still take Morgan for 60 over our replacements at 8 which are currently ???

Though did notice Ryan Jones played against Munster would be great if he was brought back into the squad.

Taff Judas is dead to me   

Jughead also scored against Trevisio last match, I'd possibly have him on the bench over AWJ

He won't be on the bench over AWJ as AWJ will be straight back into starting line up if fit, it will make bench selection interesting if they bring him back into the squad.

Do they bring him at the expense of either Ball or Charteris and use him as 2nd row cover or bring him in at the expense of Tipuric and let Lydiate cover 7 or maybe go for a 6- split forwards backs on the bench.

They'll drop Ball all together for AWJ which would be a big shame for him as he's been cracking.

Is it just injury or has Ryan Jones fallen out of favour with Gatland ?

munkian wrote:They'll drop Ball all together for AWJ which would be a big shame for him as he's been cracking.

Is it just injury or has Ryan Jones fallen out of favour with Gatland ?

I don't think he's fallen out of favour, he was selected in squad originally. If you say drop Ball altogether then are you saying they would use Jones on bench as 2nd row cover, if so then doubt he's fallen out with him.

Whoever wins the kicking contest and most effectively employs the blitz to force errors wins this game.

Wales like to kick, England to carry.But I agree kicking to an oncoming brown is dangerous, he is fast becoming a Latham. Wlaes may choose the Garry Owen to even up the aerial contest.

Wales may well go to touch if they can kick deep, but the last thing they want is an arm wrestle with an Enlgish maul…..or they may attempt to kick deep and down the middle to turn Brown, coupled with a fast line and chasers this could work to pin England back and force them to kick. I think the Welsh defence of the breakdown will be key, commit fewer players and tackle the carrier behind the mainline as v France.

I think both teams have effective blitz defenses but i don't expect Wales to try the chip over, Brown/Care will be onto that. Not sure Priestland is an exponent of it anyway though in their 22 Wales may try it.

As for scrums, Wales will be pleased that they won't have to 'slip' and i think the Welsh front row has a definite advantage.

Wales just showed they have a Plan B, though whether they can change it on the hoof is still to be seen. IMHO I think it is marginally Wales advantage because although England can play at tempo, Wales are real exponents of high tempo rugby.

They'll have Morgan and Wilson starting, run them around for 40 mins then they'll be knackered after 40 mins and be off for a mug of tea and a Kit Kat   

Morgan would still find enough energy to take your kitkat.

Run the fatties tired in the first 40, score 3 unanswered tries in the first 20 minutes of the second half then hold on for dear life.

 

No 7&1/2 wrote:Morgan would still find enough energy to take your kitkat.

If I dropped it on the floor he'd have to attempt to reach down for it..

As if he'd let it hit the floor if you dropped it!

 

Ireland bossed upfront vs. both teams but the results were very different. Wales rely heavily on front foot ball, England less so. England have become more akin to Australia that way.

I don't think England will suffer as they did in the scrum against Ireland. Jones has suffered amongst the new rules, Jenkins is not as powerful as Healy. Wales may have the slight nudge but not enough to disrupt England's game.

England scrum, as ever, will depend a lot on how well Wilson continues to recover over the next couple of weeks. I don't have any worries about Marler anymore

Wales are clearly going to try to disrupt the scrum. They desperately need the cushion of 1/2P's kicks from halfway to build a cushion before trying anything adventurous.

But i dont think Poite is going to fall for it at HQ.

Yes, we never score tries in the first 10 minutes of the game... we just rely on penalties from all those poor whiter than white front rows we've conned.

How many tries did England score last 6 nations ? Was it 5 ? Roughly half the amount we scored ? Very cosy in your Ivory tower there   

quinsforever wrote:Wales are clearly going to try to disrupt the scrum. They desperately need the cushion of 1/2P's kicks from halfway to build a cushion before trying anything adventurous.

But i dont think Poite is going to fall for it at HQ.

Why? You think Gatland is monitoring 606v2 for his tactics.

Apparently England will be kicking for touch as Lawes has already won the line out battle before the game has even started.

just posted this data on another thread but it's very appropriate to this discussion. And is why its clear Wales try to use the scrum as a means of generating penalties. Makes sense with a kicker like 1/2P.

stats regarding scrums in last year's 6N.

page 25 here http://www.irbplayerwelfare.com/pdfs/gameanalysis/6_Nations_Analysis_2013.pdf

in summary...

avg 14 scrums per match. avg own scrum success 82% of all teams.

Wales got the ball out of their own scrum the least and received the highest number of penalties/free kicks, even though France's scrum was statistically quite a lot stronger. This tends to back up the view that Wales want their opposition to concede penalties at the scrum rather than get their own ball out. 1/2P keeps the scoreboard ticking over and off we go.

The numbers from the above report...
Wales 84% success, 13/32 ball out, 19/32 Pen/FK
France 89% success 21/32 ball out, 11/32 Pen/FK
England 72% success 13/21 ball out, 8/21 Pen/FK

on opposition scrums
Wales 28% success, 0/9 ball out/thru90, 9/9 Pen/FK
France 39% success, 3/13 ballout/thru90, 10/13 Pen/FK
England 12% success, 1/4 ball out/thru90, 3/4 Pen/FK

2 key things for Wales:

1) don't kick down Brown's throat. Suivide and he'll be up for amending his mistakes from last year's match

2) Lydiate should do a Mowen and man-mark Care out of the game

I think that would really hamper our backs and as the lineout, breakdown and pack battle will be close, Halfpenny is a good goal kicker and Wales have the edge in theory come scrum time, that would be a big blow.

Lancaster will know that 2) will be part of the plan though, and I'm sure we can counter it. Morgan will be vital here, I feel, as a runner just off Care

ChequeredJersey wrote:2 key things for Wales:

1) don't kick down Brown's throat. Suivide and he'll be up for amending his mistakes from last year's match

2) Lydiate should do a Mowen and man-mark Care out of the game

I think that would really hamper our backs and as the lineout, breakdown and pack battle will be close, Halfpenny is a good goal kicker and Wales have the edge in theory come scrum time, that would be a big blow.

Lancaster will know that 2) will be part of the plan though, and I'm sure we can counter it. Morgan will be vital here, I feel, as a runner just off Care

Yes but Wales have to kick, it's in their DNA. You are right that kicking to Brown is dangerous, but i wouldn't advocate chips to midfield with care around either. We can't kick off because Lawes already has the line out won and we wouldn't maul England. So, turn Brown? very risky. Garry Owen plus chasers?
I think Wlaes may have to carry more to beat England because with Brown and their line out our kicking game is severely negated

[quote="Scratch

Yes but Wales have to kick, it's in their DNA - When you look at the stats we don't kick the most, just a lot of poor kicks I guess.

You are right that kicking to Brown is dangerous - Very dangerous let's keep him out of the game.

We can't kick off because Lawes already has the line out won - He is on fire this season lets hope AWJ back fit.

As for garryowens and chasing - please for tge love of god let us start chasing some kicks thats one element that really has me screaming at tv, a kick is only as good as the chase.

I think this game is going to go right down to the wire. Both teams have a kicking game plus a running game. but Wales have for the last few years have used Jamie Roberts to bash the ball hard up front. I think England will have that coverd and Jamie well marked.

I think it will depend a lot on defence and not giving away penalties in the range of Halfpennys boot.

Regards the scrums. Wales should have the advantage with having "LIONS" Front row but with the hit now taken out of the scrum it should be about equal.

I also believe it will depend on how much ball the wingers get. George North, Cuthbert, are very dangerous for Wales. just like Nowel and may are Dangerous for England. But it is the clash of the full backs that i am looking forward too.

Half penny V Brown. Brown Man of the Match last couple of games against Half penny who as been a little of form of late.

Being English i hope that England win of course. but it is too close to call IN MY HONEST OPINION.

maj,

For me the battle will be won or lost in the backrow. With regards your others points Nowell not convinced me but Brown is class and May looks dangerous.

Halfpenny has been bit off form of late so lets hope (for me anyway) he can find form and our back three get some chances.

Heart says Wales head really doesn't know.

bedfordwelsh wrote:maj,

For me the battle will be won or lost in the backrow.  With regards your others points Nowell not convinced me but Brown is class and May looks dangerous.

Halfpenny has been bit off form of late so lets hope (for me anyway) he can find form and our back three get some chances.

Heart says Wales head really doesn't know.

It depends a lot in which teams characteristics prevail, will we see the championship winning welsh team that can blow away teams like they did a week ago against France? Or the faltering stuttering mess that went to Dublin?

Will we see the England team that scraped past Ireland at their HQ or the one that failed Paris?

I say that Wales are a squad that know themselves, most of the team have won two championships together, and made it to the semi finals of the last World Cup. The loss to Ireland was a much needed kick up the backside, one that worked. Now the team are firing and ready for this game.

The England team is still work in progress, unsettled combinations due to injuries are giving opportunities to young players. These players have injected some excellent character into the team. They have won a close match against a very good Irish team. It is to be seen whether they can deal with the intense pressure piled on them by expectant fans and media, better England sides have fallen at the same hurdle.

Twickenham is no easy place to win away from home. But it won't hold as much fear for a Welsh team that won the last time they played there as it did for the Irish team that haven't won at HQ for four years. The opposition won't encroach as much awe on a Welsh team that's has consecutively beaten them home and away again and again and again as it does on an Irish team that has now lost four on the bounce to England...!

Those of us who have played and supported the game know how psychological it is and it will be who deals with the fear factor the best that comes out victorious..!

As the last game at twickers between these sides before the RWC this game will have a huge psychological impact on the next time these two sides play there, in the pool stages .

As the last game at twickers between these sides before the RWC this game will have a huge psychological impact on the next time these two sides play there, in the pool stages.

maestegmafia

I do think this game is a must win game for Both teams. Who ever wins this game will have a great chance of winning the 6ns. But like you say it will be a huge psycological boost for the RWC pools stages.

There is still another 6N match between the 2 before the RWC too...

ChequeredJersey wrote:There is still another 6N match between the 2 before the RWC too...

Not at Twickenham. The next game between Wales and England at HQ is in the pool stages.

But if, let's say, we narrowly lose next week but comfortably win vs Wales next 6N, surely next 6N is just as psychologically relevant?

ChequeredJersey wrote:But if, let's say, we narrowly lose next week but comfortably win vs Wales next 6N, surely next 6N is just as psychologically relevant?

Yes that's correct. But every match you lose to someone the larger the barrier becomes. If you lose narrowly next week, then it would be very hard to overcome that loss psychologically when you next visit Cardiff.

That's true

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Wales are clearly going to try to disrupt the scrum. They desperately need the cushion of 1/2P's kicks from halfway to build a cushion before trying anything adventurous.

But i dont think Poite is going to fall for it at HQ.

Why? You think Gatland is monitoring 606v2 for his tactics.

Apparently England will be kicking for touch as Lawes has already won the line out battle before the game has even started.

Its "your lot" who are proclaiming AWJ as the reason Wales will lose to Courtney Lawes. Meanwhile "our lot" are pointing out the obvious : our front row missing 3 starters sucks.

Poite is a whistle happy ref at scrums. England have the weaker scrum. It wont be a case of fooling if Wales dominate that area. Obviously England have the world class talents of Nowell and Burrell (who should be starting 12 and 13) so nothing to fear even if the do get tooled in the scrum. Not to mention a fat bloke who used to be welsh at 8.

Tactically i think England will look to score the points and have a wins.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
our front row missing 3 starters sucks.

3 starters?

Isn't Cole the only player missing?

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
our front row missing 3 starters sucks.

3 starters?

Isn't Cole the only player missing?

I presume another is Corbs, not sure who the 3rd one is.

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
our front row missing 3 starters sucks.

3 starters?

Isn't Cole the only player missing?

I presume another is Corbs, not sure who the 3rd one is.

Corbisiero has played the same number of matches as Marler I think Vunipola has played about the same. Isn't Corbs absent so much that he isn't a realistic first choice?

Certainly a very good player.

With a team who are still trying to work out their best combinations it's hard to say who is first choice. Barring players like Cole who have had nearly fifty consecutive caps and are seen as indispensable.

I read that Lancaster has used seven different halfback pairings in his tenure.

maestegmafia wrote:

nathan wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
our front row missing 3 starters sucks.

3 starters?

Isn't Cole the only player missing?

I presume another is Corbs, not sure who the 3rd one is.

Corbisiero has played the same number of matches as Marler I think Vunipola has played about the same. Isn't Corbs absent so much that he isn't a realistic first choice?

Certainly a very good player.

With a team who are still trying to work out their best combinations it's hard to say who is first choice. Barring players like Cole who have had nearly fifty consecutive caps and are seen as indispensable.

I read that Lancaster has used seven different halfback pairings in his tenure.

Regarding the half back pairings, that would likely be due to the differing form of the scrum halfs. All three (Care, Youngs and Dickson) have been really good and really bad at times.

It's ok, we are set on our halfbacks now, and if Youngs returns to form, Ford makes it or Cips makes it back we'll only be stronger

Out of interest if Farrell is inaccurate with his kicking, he has his off days when the pressure is on, what options have you got but to sub him?

Is Twelvetrees good enough?