Tactical battles in the England vs Wales match...

First topic message reminder :

Several key tactical decisions which need to be made.

For Wales:
- will they kick in-field as they usually do, given a much more dangerous than usual England back 3 who are all approaching 100m of carry per game each?
- or will they kick positionally and contest lineouts, not something they usually do? [more of an Irish plan]

i can see why they want to keep the ball in-field. pressure the catchers and hope for occasional knock-ons, then mess around with the scrum and try to convince the ref that it was them wot did it, get penalties and watch 1/2P convert. But with England's newish back 3 returning with interest, and supporting runners beginning to get the hang of it, will Wales stick with this tactic?

- will Wales contest English lineout ball, or try a defensive quick thrust into the lineout to drive the forming maul backwards before it gets going?
- i assume that given the speed of England's line defense, and the fact that France scored 2 quick grubber tries, Priestland and North are going to be attempting this rather frequently?

For England:
- will they continue with the rush defense quite as aggressively, knowing that Wales are certainly going to try to kick/chip through into space?
- i cant see England changing too much about their overall tempo, aggressive defense, and quick attacking game
- will England vary their kicking for a nice combo of in-field kicks, knowing its' coming back infield, in an attempt to fracture the centre of the field and open it up for Brown, May, Nowell? And occasional positional kicks to pressure the Welsh lineout?

Overall, England's gameplan is much less obvious, as the team is still fairly inexperienced. But they appear to back themselves to win the breakdown, and drive teams backwards in the tackle, which if they can continue to do, will make life very difficult for any opposition.

The scrum is going to be a massive battle. My gut feeling is that the current media coverage (even on the beeb) of how often the Welsh scrum goes to ground is going to swing interpretation in England's favour come next Saturday in the event of a zillion re-sets. Either way, this will be key.

Whilst on the subject of tactics, it is interesting to see how few players England commit to the breakdown at the moment. That will be a contentious area, where you would most likely want to have Wood and Robshaw going toe to toe with the Welsh pack for possession so that you don't get turned over like last year.

Do you think England will change their tactics and flood the breakdown for this game?

hmm. not sure that has been my impression of england at the breakdown so far maes. wood and robshaw have actually been pretty effective in turning over ball against fairly capable forward packs of france and ireland.

i reckon england's primary focus will be to not concede penalties within 1/2P's kicking range. so if england players get isolated at the breakdown, i suspect they will let the ball be turned over rather than get pinged.

england's rush defense has been very impressive so far this tournament, so i think they will be reasonably comfortable for wales to have the ball in hand after the breakdown. certainly england will prefer to back their defense rather than concede penalties at the breakdown if they find themselves outnumbered.

but like all things i suspect how england compete at the breakdown is going to depend somewhat on how the welsh forwards approach the game

maestegmafia wrote:Out of interest if Farrell is inaccurate with his kicking, he has his off days when the pressure is on, what options have you got but to sub him?

Is Twelvetrees good enough?

Like all kickers Farrell occasionally has an off day with the boot but I can't imagine him actually needing to be subbed. He's very mentally strong. We're aware that you don't like him though

Twelvetrees could potentially step in.

maestegmafia wrote:Whilst on the subject of tactics, it is interesting to see how few players England commit to the breakdown at the moment. That will be a contentious area, where you would most likely want to have Wood and Robshaw going toe to toe with the Welsh pack for possession so that you don't get turned over like last year.

Do you think England will change their tactics and flood the breakdown for this game?

I think England wil keep the breakdown tactics the same - it was good enough to match Ireland who dominated Wales this year.
Also the mobility of Lawes & Launchbury, both of whom were previous flankers, has been key. Compare these 2 to AWJ & Charteris at the breakdown...
Decision making is key to as it isn't only the forwards who have turned over/retained possession at the breakdown. Nowell & Brown are also significant in this area.

Kingsley jones showed a piece on scrum v yesterday showing France, Scotland and Ireland turning over English ball from England's pack standing in the backline and wingers and centres trying to retain possession.

This is one of the things a long with the scrum that Wales targeted and succeeded in exploiting last year.

At the risk of sounding like an England whinger, I think one of the reasons why Wales did so well at the scrum last year was the appalling refereeing of Steve Walsh.  There were times when our scrum was going backwards so fast Youngs couldn't get the ball in.  By and large French referees know what a scrum is and have an idea of how to referee it.  That plus the new rules and an England no8 with a bit more weight should all help.  In fact Gethin Jenkins - great player round the pitch that he is - is getting a reputation as a diver at the scrums.  I bet that the first two or three scrums go down on his side during the match (he struggled at Toulon becuase the French like to scrummage).
All that said, England don't have a scrum that is going to push Wales around the park so if we can get parity at that phase I will be happy.  I don't think either team will get much of an edge at the lineout as both teams have hookers who can throw (although there are worries about Tom Youngs if Hartley has to go off for any reason).
So the deciding match ups for me will be breakdown, Welsh back power (North v Nowell is a bit of a mismatch) and goal kicking.
I think England will need to be on top of their game to match Wales and if I was betting on the outcome, my money would be on Halfpenny over Farrell in the kicking stakes - he wins on consistency and length (ooh err)!  I think odds of virtually 2/1 against Wales are very generous, although I hope the bookies have got it right.

Clearly the game will be attritive and ultimately it will be decided by Halfpenny's more impressive length.

The only press going on about Jenkins dropping the scrum are the deluded posters on here.

With gethin dropping and heartely standing up hopefully they'll cancel each other out.

It's also noted in the "press" that when the welsh scrum stays up it has a habbit of pushing the other team back. Weird that.

slartibartfast wrote:The only press going on about Jenkins dropping the scrum are the deluded posters on here.

With gethin dropping and heartely standing up hopefully they'll cancel each other out.

It's also noted in the "press" that when the welsh scrum stays up it has a habbit of pushing the other team back.  Weird that.

And not a mention of Hartley standing up in every single scrum he participates in, almost as though he thinks that that is an objective that no one else bizarrely achieves...!

Graham Rowntree praised the welsh pack highly in an article last summer. Stating how he was completely incorrect to Question Steve Walsh's refereeing.

"Graham Rowntree last night delivered a glowing tribute to Wales’ 15 Lions and admitted he can fully understand why Gethin Jenkins and his men thrashed England at the Millennium Stadium.

Red Rose forwards coach Rowntree had originally questioned the decision-making of referee Steve Walsh after Wales obliterated England at the scrum to run out stunning 30-3 victors and take the Six Nations title.

But, having spent the past 10 days working closely with those Welsh stars as the Lions prepare to head to Australia, Rowntree says he can see exactly why England were so comprehensively defeated in that big Championship decider."

nlpnlp wrote:At the risk of sounding like an England whinger, I think one of the reasons why Wales did so well at the scrum last year was the appalling refereeing of Steve Walsh.  There were times when our scrum was going backwards so fast Youngs couldn't get the ball in.  By and large French referees know what a scrum is and have an idea of how to referee it.  That plus the new rules and an England no8 with a bit more weight should all help.  In fact Gethin Jenkins - great player round the pitch that he is - is getting a reputation as a diver at the scrums.  I bet that the first two or three scrums go down on his side during the match (he struggled at Toulon becuase the French like to scrummage).
All that said, England don't have a scrum that is going to push Wales around the park so if we can get parity at that phase I will be happy.  I don't think either team will get much of an edge at the lineout as both teams have hookers who can throw (although there are worries about Tom Youngs if Hartley has to go off for any reason).
So the deciding match ups for me will be breakdown, Welsh back power (North v Nowell is a bit of a mismatch) and goal kicking.
I think England will need to be on top of their game to match Wales and if I was betting on the outcome, my money would be on Halfpenny over Farrell in the kicking stakes - he wins on consistency and length (ooh err)!  I think odds of virtually 2/1 against Wales are very generous, although I hope the bookies have got it right.

I think Kingsley Jones raised some excellent point, England contribute very few players when they want to attack on quick ball and it creates the situation that Warburton exploits excellently, as he did last year.

GE said on another thread he thought that England 'flood' the breakdown. We certainly seem to have 4 flankers if you include the 2nd row guys. Not obvious that England will stand off at the breakdown given known Welsh abilities there.

nlpnlp wrote:At the risk of sounding like an England whinger, I think one of the reasons why Wales did so well at the scrum last year was the appalling refereeing of Steve Walsh.  There were times when our scrum was going backwards so fast Youngs couldn't get the ball in.  By and large French referees know what a scrum is and have an idea of how to referee it.  That plus the new rules and an England no8 with a bit more weight should all help.  In fact Gethin Jenkins - great player round the pitch that he is - is getting a reputation as a diver at the scrums.  I bet that the first two or three scrums go down on his side during the match (he struggled at Toulon becuase the French like to scrummage).
All that said, England don't have a scrum that is going to push Wales around the park so if we can get parity at that phase I will be happy.  I don't think either team will get much of an edge at the lineout as both teams have hookers who can throw (although there are worries about Tom Youngs if Hartley has to go off for any reason).
So the deciding match ups for me will be breakdown, Welsh back power (North v Nowell is a bit of a mismatch) and goal kicking.
I think England will need to be on top of their game to match Wales and if I was betting on the outcome, my money would be on Halfpenny over Farrell in the kicking stakes - he wins on consistency and length (ooh err)!  I think odds of virtually 2/1 against Wales are very generous, although I hope the bookies have got it right.

I think England have a distinct advantage at lineout something that Edwards has already spoken about regarding Wales kicking the ball to stay in field. Edwards saw Ireland beasting them with the driving maul & earning yards &/or penalties from lineout ball.
My guess is Wales will be desperate to avoid line outs & throw short on their own ball. I can't see England having the same mindset & expect Farrell to kick for touch & England to attack their lineout.

maestegmafia wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:The only press going on about Jenkins dropping the scrum are the deluded posters on here.

With gethin dropping and heartely standing up hopefully they'll cancel each other out.

It's also noted in the "press" that when the welsh scrum stays up it has a habbit of pushing the other team back.  Weird that.

And not a mention of Hartley standing up in every single scrum he participates in, almost as though he thinks that that is an objective that no one else bizarrely achieves...!

Graham Rowntree praised the welsh pack highly in an article last summer. Stating how he was completely incorrect to Question Steve Walsh's refereeing.

"Graham Rowntree last night delivered a glowing tribute to Wales’ 15 Lions and admitted he can fully understand why Gethin Jenkins and his men thrashed England at the Millennium Stadium.

Red Rose forwards coach Rowntree had originally questioned the decision-making of referee Steve Walsh after Wales obliterated England at the scrum to run out stunning 30-3 victors and take the Six Nations title.

But, having spent the past 10 days working closely with those Welsh stars as the Lions prepare to head to Australia, Rowntree says he can see exactly why England were so comprehensively defeated in that big Championship decider."

Is this the new wum for the week?

Does Rowntree actually say he was incorrect to question Walsh in that article? He doesn't in the excerpt....

No he doesn't. Just appears to be something maes is using to drudge up old arguments.

As a neutral(ish) ( can't decide who I like less   ) what I see?

Gatland has said he will be intending his team to kick infield as he doesn't want lineouts as England drive / maul so well. could be a bluff but I think its probably true.

Wales usual game that they have employed for a while is a territorial kicking game so I expect all welsh ball in their own half to be kicked long into the corners but to stay in field. They are going to have to execute this really well and England will be expecting this. I expect England to be set up to counter gatlandball and England have some very dangerous runners on the counter attack. Hopefully Wales will play with a real 9 so they actually get some decent ball to work with. I don't see the midfield crash ball working well - again its an obvious ploy well used by Wales and England have the players to counter it. Could of course be a bluff by Gatland and perhaps he will vary the tactics - if he does and allows his attacking backs to attack then Wales will win as the experience of the Welsh backs should be the trump card. If he plays the same way as we have seen for a while England with the meticulous preparation that Lancaster does will mean England can negate them.

England? Can the fairly inexperienced backs gell? Can the welsh get in Farrells face and unsettle him?

forwards - I see the scrum as fairly even - I just hope both sides actually use it as an attacking platform not as a way to try to milk penalties. I think the new scrum laws will be to englands advantge but will only work to even up the contest in what otherwise would be an area of Welsh dominence. Backrow / Breakdown batttle should be really good. I think both teams will really go after turnovers.

I think England will end up with most of the possession as Wales will kick and England will counter. However Wales should control the territory. England will have a lot of ball but do little with it finding difficulty in breaking down the Welsh defence.

So for me - England a narrow victory unless Gatland varies the tactics and allowsw what is perhaps the best back 3 in the 6N a freerer hand to counter attack. Warburton to put in a storming performance and perhaps be the MOTM. Farrell to be targetted and to lose his rag and to look very ordinary

Hoping for a good game, fearing a turgid kicking battle with a high penalty count and zillions of reset scrums

To sum up? If Gatland has the bottle / nous to vary the tactics from what we have seen Wales will win as England will find it hard to deal with the unexpected. If we see gatlandball as we know it then England will win. Will Gatland have the tacticall nous to set his team up to win? has he learnt the lesson from the irish game? Will Lancasters meticulous preparation win the tactical battle?


Oh - and Please please please allow 1/2p to counterattack. Please? a little bit of me dies inside everytime I see him kick away the ball when there is plenty of room for the counter.

I saw a reference in a telegraph article to the fact that Rowntree had been told off for comments he made about the scrum right after the game. Lots of reasons for being polite before the Lions.

Good summary TJ. Regarding Gatlandball..... is a visit to HQ and a reasonably on form England a good time to experiment with a brand new untried script ?

TJ you're about as neutral as someone who has a Scottish flag tattooed onto their body and the words "Freedom!" just below. Probably wear one of those ABE t shirts on a daily basis too. Also sing the anthem "Flower of Scotland" every day just to make sure you don't forget who the enemy are.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=anyone+but+england&espv=210&es_sm=93&tbm=isch&imgil=VTnqRkdxrhpXFM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcQfZYbZ0Y21-qbMothIyh7xWfvoxNfMSzaWWxlQqCb9T2e1n-CG%253B493%253B370%253BOqpdkqSHzBcOqM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fasummerfullofpeaches.com%25252F2012%25252F06%25252Fan-english-girl-in-scotland-anyone-but-england%25252F&source=iu&usg=__jcZZyuDlu0hmQpoz8WkT2tacV5w%3D&sa=X&ei=rvEWU5W9B4KShQeqvoCgDQ&sqi=2&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAg&biw=1366&bih=653#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=VTnqRkdxrhpXFM%253A%3BOqpdkqSHzBcOqM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimg100.imageshack.us%252Fimg100%252F5298%252Fscotland20vs20england20.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fasummerfullofpeaches.com%252F2012%252F06%252Fan-english-girl-in-scotland-anyone-but-england%252F%3B493%3B370


By all means Wales can try and target Farrell (a player I know you detest). I don't see them having much luck there.

I expect England to pile the pressure on the Welsh halfbacks. Webb is inexperienced and Priestland is inconsistent (he's one of those infamous on their day players).

I think it will hinge on how England deal with the big men of Wales like North,Roberts,Faletau. Successfully nullify them and Wales attacking options become limited.

In attack, England simply need to be more clinical.

Beshocked - I get accused of Welsh hating on here as well - hence the comment and the whistle. I am actually English by birth, accent and name you know :-)

gregortree wrote:Good summary TJ. Regarding Gatlandball..... is a visit to HQ and a reasonably on form England a good time to experiment with a brand new untried script ?

High risk strategy for sure - but a surprise change in tactics might well be the best way to win. Certainly IMO the way Wales play does not make the best use of what might well be the best back 3 in the 6N and is awfully predictable - hence the lesson the Irish gave them.

do we have the teams yet?

Ours is announced today, but it is apparently this (no surprises).

1/2P, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts, North, Priestland, Webb, Jenkins, Hibbard, Jones, AWJ, Charteris, Lydiate, Warburton, Faletau

Bench is then (probably)

James, Owens, Jones, Ball, Tipuric, Phillips, Hook, Williams.

Not my pick really, but what he will go for (and what the journos think it is).

TJ some posters do generally pretend they are from another country to try and deflect criticism.

If you were truly English then you would not be so anti English. Being born in a country and having an accent doesn't necessarily mean you feel attached towards that country.

I still think this is going to come down to the Scrum and how the Ref sees it.

I think with AWJ back in the team Adam Jones won't have it that easy as Ball added a lot more beef behind him and made him look better than he has done all season.

Gethin will have mud all over his belly after the first scrum whether it goes forward or backwards lets hope the Ref sees sense and gets on top of things before the game beomes a lottery at scrum time.

Scrumpy wrote:I still think this is going to come down to the Scrum and how the Ref sees it.

I think with AWJ back in the team Adam Jones won't have it that easy as Ball added a lot more beef behind him and made him look better than he has done all season.  

Gethin will have mud all over his belly after the first scrum whether it goes forward or backwards lets hope the Ref sees sense and gets on top of things before the game beomes a lottery at scrum time.

Not with the beautifully pristine Twickenham pitch he won't, just a couple of grass stains.

jelly wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:I still think this is going to come down to the Scrum and how the Ref sees it.

I think with AWJ back in the team Adam Jones won't have it that easy as Ball added a lot more beef behind him and made him look better than he has done all season.  

Gethin will have mud all over his belly after the first scrum whether it goes forward or backwards lets hope the Ref sees sense and gets on top of things before the game beomes a lottery at scrum time.

Not with the beautifully pristine Twickenham pitch he won't, just a couple of grass stains.

But that Belly creates a lot of friction when it wobbles against the ground, all the natural grass will be burnt down to the mud in a matter of nanoseconds.

TJ definitely gets accused of Welsh hating

I thought Welsh players in general did very well on the Lions tour. Irrelevant whether it was a strong Aussie team.

Still think Dan Lydiate is one of the most overrated rugby players on the planet though.

Shame with have been robbed of the cousin battle - Billy vs Toby.

Disappointed that Phillips is unlikely to start for Wales, I think Webb did a good job vs France. I believe Wales will be more dangerous with him at 9 if he can keep his composure.

Webb's battle with Care will be intriguing.

They were a very weak (broken) Aussie team though!

I guess Jack hasn't done his RFU media traning course yet?

Ok RDW * tips cap*

After moderation inconsistencies being recently pointed out, I still find it strange that the rules seemingly only apply to The Saint. Posters are continuously getting away with posting off topic and xenophobic comments about Wales (the nation and rugby team). It's all over the "hating England" thread for a start.

^^ Not to mention being targeted by a poster using systematic complaints system. I have my suspicions, but hopefully the mods can actually do their job and deal with that.

Back to the tactical battles - I love this from Burrell http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/26410245. Will North be in the centres again?

No. The team is announced. North on wing, Davies back in the starting team.

The Saint, wind you neck in mate the mods do a difficult job as it is, if people are spewing rubbish about Wales then report it, but if its Banter and light hearted then just go with the flow. It can be frustrating when someone reports every post you type but there is little you can do about it so its best not to show its getting to you.

The Scrumpy  

Is Tuilagi back for England?

Hard game to call. I have England to win by a small margin but wouldnt be surprised if either team won really.

Tuilagi and Yarde are training with the squad but I believe the feeling is the game has come too soon for them.

SL said they would both have to do something very special to get selected this week, maybe a bench spot vs Italy.

Risca Rev wrote:No. The team is announced. North on wing, Davies back in the starting team.

Davies back? should be a boost for Wales -with a proper 9 and a creative centre I might just have Wales slightly ahead.

Webb starts again? Thought Philips would be back?

Wales: Leigh Halfpenny, Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies , Jamie Roberts, George North , Rhys Priestland, Rhys Webb, Gethin Jenkins , Richard Hibbard, Adam Jones, Luke Charteris, Alun Wyn Jones , Dan Lydiate , Sam Warburton (capt), Taulupe Faletau .

Replacements: Ken Owens , Paul James, Rhodri Jones , Jake Ball , Justin Tipuric, Mike Phillips, Dan Biggar, Liam Williams.

TJ wrote:Back to the tactical battles - I love this from Burrell http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/wales/26410245.  Will North be in the centres again?

TJ, sorry, could you tell me what he says please? I don't have access to the video over here in France

They are teammates remember. Its just ( to paraphrase) Hi George, I might be after you at the weekend. Hope you feel strong" with a big grin

TJ wrote:They are teammates remember.  Its just ( to paraphrase)  Hi George, I might be after you at the weekend.  Hope you feel strong" with a big grin

Haha, brilliant, the good kind of banter we like to see before matches, though as they are team mates I guess this is a lot easier

GunsGerms wrote:Webb starts again? Thought Philips would be back?

Why?

Webbs service was far superior to what Phillips is, that said I still think Phillips still has a role within the Welsh squad.

When is SL naming his side?

That is good by Burrell. I'm sure they'll clash at some point anyway, as Davies will probably only play an hour or so.

The only shock for me with the Wales 23 is I thought he would revert back to Hook and Williams on the bench and not Biggar.

Risca Rev wrote:That is good by Burrell. I'm sure they'll clash at some point anyway, as Davies will probably only play an hour or so.

The only shock for me with the Wales 23 is I thought he would revert back to Hook and Williams on the bench and not Biggar.

Me to Rev though glad I was wrong on that one.