Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

by mystiroakey Wed 26 Feb - 22:38

First topic message reminder :

Oh you are SAF? or a Glazier?
Wink

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 8 Mar - 20:21

The point is though Mysti the stats can only ever be used to prove what we do see, they can never prove what we don't see. Ozils stats will say he's had a good season but what they won't say is that he's gone missing when the going has got tough.

by Champagne_Socialist Sat 8 Mar - 20:26

Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Exactly this.

exactly what? that you don't trust stats? EVERYTHING is a stat. how many assists, how many successful passes, how many successful dribbles, how many successful tackles, how many successful catches, how many shots on target etc etc

It is up to you to look at those stats and decide who has played the best eg who has been the better player for Arsenal, Giroud or Flamini? Giroud's main stats are goals scored and assists whilst flamini's main stats are successful tackles and successful passes.

Now you are saying that stats don't tell everything because a goal from 5 yards out counts as 1 goal just the same as a goal from 30 yards out counts as 1 goal in the goals scored stats data. But there will be detailed stats that highlight how many goals have been scored from outside the area, or with the head, or with the weaker foot etc etc. Everything falls into a stat and thus stats are very accurate in determining how well a player is playing.

Ozil was bought for his assists as that is his main weapon basically along with his very high successful passing completion. So if Ozil finishes the season as the top assists player in the EPL then of course that stat is very important, we would then look at other stats such as his passing stats and goals scored stats to determine in a more detailed manner if he has been a success.

I'll use my own eyes, thanks, to judge whether or not a player is good enough or not good enough. It's what I usually do, not look at some percentage on passing accuracy or tackling success.

Stats are nothing without context.

I wouldn't put much faith in your judgement as I still remember you saying in the summer that man u were the favourites to win the epl this season and that they had the best squad for the 13/14 season because they had won the league the previous season.

by Duty281 Sat 8 Mar - 20:29

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Exactly this.

exactly what? that you don't trust stats? EVERYTHING is a stat. how many assists, how many successful passes, how many successful dribbles, how many successful tackles, how many successful catches, how many shots on target etc etc

It is up to you to look at those stats and decide who has played the best eg who has been the better player for Arsenal, Giroud or Flamini? Giroud's main stats are goals scored and assists whilst flamini's main stats are successful tackles and successful passes.

Now you are saying that stats don't tell everything because a goal from 5 yards out counts as 1 goal just the same as a goal from 30 yards out counts as 1 goal in the goals scored stats data. But there will be detailed stats that highlight how many goals have been scored from outside the area, or with the head, or with the weaker foot etc etc. Everything falls into a stat and thus stats are very accurate in determining how well a player is playing.

Ozil was bought for his assists as that is his main weapon basically along with his very high successful passing completion. So if Ozil finishes the season as the top assists player in the EPL then of course that stat is very important, we would then look at other stats such as his passing stats and goals scored stats to determine in a more detailed manner if he has been a success.

I'll use my own eyes, thanks, to judge whether or not a player is good enough or not good enough. It's what I usually do, not look at some percentage on passing accuracy or tackling success.

Stats are nothing without context.

I wouldn't put much faith in your judgement as I still remember you saying in the summer that man u were the favourites to win the epl this season and that they had the best squad for the 13/14 season because they had won the league the previous season.

And you thought Kim Kallstrom was a good signing.

Good thing it's a game, and nothing to get too worried over.

by Champagne_Socialist Sat 8 Mar - 20:36

Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Exactly this.

exactly what? that you don't trust stats? EVERYTHING is a stat. how many assists, how many successful passes, how many successful dribbles, how many successful tackles, how many successful catches, how many shots on target etc etc

It is up to you to look at those stats and decide who has played the best eg who has been the better player for Arsenal, Giroud or Flamini? Giroud's main stats are goals scored and assists whilst flamini's main stats are successful tackles and successful passes.

Now you are saying that stats don't tell everything because a goal from 5 yards out counts as 1 goal just the same as a goal from 30 yards out counts as 1 goal in the goals scored stats data. But there will be detailed stats that highlight how many goals have been scored from outside the area, or with the head, or with the weaker foot etc etc. Everything falls into a stat and thus stats are very accurate in determining how well a player is playing.

Ozil was bought for his assists as that is his main weapon basically along with his very high successful passing completion. So if Ozil finishes the season as the top assists player in the EPL then of course that stat is very important, we would then look at other stats such as his passing stats and goals scored stats to determine in a more detailed manner if he has been a success.

I'll use my own eyes, thanks, to judge whether or not a player is good enough or not good enough. It's what I usually do, not look at some percentage on passing accuracy or tackling success.

Stats are nothing without context.

I wouldn't put much faith in your judgement as I still remember you saying in the summer that man u were the favourites to win the epl this season and that they had the best squad for the 13/14 season because they had won the league the previous season.

And you thought Kim Kallstrom was a good signing.

Good thing it's a game, and nothing to get too worried over.

He should be back next week so you will see his class Smile

In all seriousness there are so many stats that it is nearly impossible for a player to have a bad game and the stats say he had a good game etc etc You thought there were just 2 stats which were goals and assists but clearly there are dozens more, stats for how many runs into the box, passing completion, tackles, dribbling, crosses, long passes, key passes, average passes per game, average crosses per game, through balls, touches on the ball, successful headers, aerial battles won, shots on target inside the box, shots on target outside the box etc etc etc

There are so many stats thet if I missed a game but looked at all of the stats above and the countless other stats available I could guarantee I could decide correctly if a player played good or bad.

Stats are very important in the modern game as they are so accurate.

by Guest Sat 8 Mar - 20:37

Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

by Champagne_Socialist Sat 8 Mar - 20:42

John wrote:Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

The question is do utd want the europa league? it is so many games in some very far countries and the europa league won't help them attract big name players like the champions league will.

by Duty281 Sat 8 Mar - 20:43

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Exactly this.

exactly what? that you don't trust stats? EVERYTHING is a stat. how many assists, how many successful passes, how many successful dribbles, how many successful tackles, how many successful catches, how many shots on target etc etc

It is up to you to look at those stats and decide who has played the best eg who has been the better player for Arsenal, Giroud or Flamini? Giroud's main stats are goals scored and assists whilst flamini's main stats are successful tackles and successful passes.

Now you are saying that stats don't tell everything because a goal from 5 yards out counts as 1 goal just the same as a goal from 30 yards out counts as 1 goal in the goals scored stats data. But there will be detailed stats that highlight how many goals have been scored from outside the area, or with the head, or with the weaker foot etc etc. Everything falls into a stat and thus stats are very accurate in determining how well a player is playing.

Ozil was bought for his assists as that is his main weapon basically along with his very high successful passing completion. So if Ozil finishes the season as the top assists player in the EPL then of course that stat is very important, we would then look at other stats such as his passing stats and goals scored stats to determine in a more detailed manner if he has been a success.

I'll use my own eyes, thanks, to judge whether or not a player is good enough or not good enough. It's what I usually do, not look at some percentage on passing accuracy or tackling success.

Stats are nothing without context.

I wouldn't put much faith in your judgement as I still remember you saying in the summer that man u were the favourites to win the epl this season and that they had the best squad for the 13/14 season because they had won the league the previous season.

And you thought Kim Kallstrom was a good signing.

Good thing it's a game, and nothing to get too worried over.

He should be back next week so you will see his class

In all seriousness there are so many stats that it is nearly impossible for a player to have a bad game and the stats say he had a good game etc etc You thought there were just 2 stats which were goals and assists but clearly there are dozens more, stats for how many runs into the box, passing completion, tackles, dribbling, crosses, long passes, key passes, average passes per game, average crosses per game, through balls, touches on the ball, successful headers, aerial battles won, shots on target inside the box, shots on target outside the box etc etc etc

There are so many stats thet if I missed a game but looked at all of the stats above and the countless other stats available I could guarantee I could decide correctly if a player played good or bad.

Stats are very important in the modern game as they are so accurate.

Oh I knew there were more than two types of stats, it's just all the others are the ones brought up less frequently.

And they're still nothing without context. I saw Barkley last season, in a 0-0 against Arsenal in around April time (with Ian Wright in the pundits box on Sky, you know what I mean innit), and I could see he was a good player with fantastic potential with my eyes - I didn't need to throw open a laptop and look at his dribbling success or how many crosses he put in.

No one needs to.

He reminded me of Gazza. Still does.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 20:47

Don't even know what to say anymore. Every week I think Hughton must do something right, every week he continues to amaze me with his decisions

Starting with two defensive midfielder against Stoke???

Go 1-0 and then take off Hoolahan our best player giving up the initiative AGAIN????

BRINGING ON ELMANDER WHEN YOU NEED A GODDAMN GOAL???????????

If we don't go down, there's something seriously wrong with the Premier League. Cos we're f*cking awful

by Mad for Chelsea Sat 8 Mar - 20:57

thing is though Olly, Fulham and Cardiff are even worse than you (significantly so I would say), so it only takes one more team to finish below you for you to be safe. at the moment my money's in West Brom...

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 21:09

Mad for Chelsea wrote:thing is though Olly, Fulham and Cardiff are even worse than you (significantly so I would say), so it only takes one more team to finish below you for you to be safe. at the moment my money's in West Brom...

All hinges on the WBA and Sunderland home games for us. If we can win those two games, I think it'll just be enough for us. If we only win two more games this season, has to be those two,

My head says we'll be OK for the reasons you stated, my eyes/heart see us shooting ourselves in the foot and going down unfortunately

Days like today are just so frustrating, Stoke were so so bad, but Hughton just will never ever be bold to go and win the game by a few goals against our rivals. I'm all for being tight and compact against the top sides, but we should be asserting ourselves on games like today, but we just don't. Only one point from Stoke home, Villa, West Ham, Cardiff away is just shocking no matter how you put it

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 21:25

The last 10 mins today were so reminiscent of Hull away. Passing the ball about with no tempo, no aim, no creativity, then just putting a pointless cross into the box with the defence set minutes ago.

Even just pumping it into the box would've been more of a tactic than we what showed in those last 10 mins

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat 8 Mar - 21:32

I cant argue with the two men he brought on. But I was surprised by how utterly lifeless you were as a team after that red card. I sat and watched it, thinking I could enjoy a goal and the nice thought of your happy chappy face all grinning, but nothing happened.

Id see if he kept you up then give him a month at the start of next season. If things dont look more sprightly then get rid. I dont think his decision making is awful, but there are players there who obviously are not getting sparking into life by his management any more.

For all the glitz and glamour, if the RVW money had been spent on better defenders you'd be fine.

by Guest Sat 8 Mar - 21:45

Olly wrote:Right my Nodge tips for today

Both teams to score, draw and Redmond anytime

The boy is damn good.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 21:46

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:

Id see if he kept you up then give him a month at the start of next season. If things dont look more sprightly then get rid.

This is exactly what pretty much Norwich fans said at the start of this season. And things certainly haven't looked more sprightly, they've looked worse.

Get rid and let a new manager spend the summer budget. Don't let Hughton spend more money, for the same outcome and then in September you're left with a lack of available managers, and with a squad built by someone else.

We can agree to disagree on the rest of your post. Bringing on Elmander is never, ever a good decision.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat 8 Mar - 21:58

Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

by socal1976 Sat 8 Mar - 22:30

John wrote:Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

What the hell was that from the Spurs? Maybe the worst defending I have ever seen literally every Chelsea goal was as a result of comically bad defending. I have seen better defending at my nephew's matches and he is 11 years old. The scoreline wasn't what was shocking for me but the almost laughable nature of the spurs defenders in the second half. Chelsea look heavy, heavy favorites to take the league now.

by CFCNick Sat 8 Mar - 22:33

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
John wrote:Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

The question is do utd want the europa league? it is so many games in some very far countries and the europa league won't help them attract big name players like the champions league will.

You don't watch the Europa League do you. Only 9 out of the last 32 come from countries I'd call far trips. Plus they'll have more difficulty attracting players with zero European football.

by socal1976 Sat 8 Mar - 22:39

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Fernando wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Fernando wrote:He isn't good enough CS.

Im all for Phil Jones at RB tbh

Spurs are always a joke when play Chelsea away from home. Just roll over what is it now 19 years and counting for a win there?

I reckon he will be the future england RB, he has only just turned 22 and will be the number 1 RB when Sagna leaves at the end of next season (my guess).

I suspect Bellerin will jump ahead of Jenkinson tbh and Wenger been looking at RB's for a while now
PS Sagna leaves end of this season.

I hope sagna stays he has been great this season.

Frankly can't think of a right back that has played any better than Sagna. He kept Baines in his pocket today and assisted a goal himself all but laying it on a silver platter. Zabaleta gets more publicity but defensively I would rather have Sagna any day of the week. In fact, I scratch my head trying to recall a single bad play he has made this season that has caused a goal. That is why PSG want him, I think Arsene should give him what he wants and bring him back.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 8 Mar - 22:41

CFCNick wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
John wrote:Sherwood's rant is pretty funny, shocking that Spurs display. Can't see him staying in that job, Van Gaal possibly to replace him. Can easily see United finishing 5th now with ease & getting into Europa League.

Chelsea 9 points clear of City....wow. Huge pressure on City to deliver now.

The question is do utd want the europa league? it is so many games in some very far countries and the europa league won't help them attract big name players like the champions league will.

You don't watch the Europa League do you. Only 9 out of the last 32 come from countries I'd call far trips. Plus they'll have more difficulty attracting players with zero European football.

He doesn't watch any football Nick, i'd rather not have European football and don't think we'll struggle to attract players this Summer but if we get in we can use it as a means to experiment next season.

by Mad for Chelsea Sat 8 Mar - 22:43

just managed to see the goals so excuse me for a moment but...

Laugh

I mean, really? Bad defending for one goal is bad enough, for two is criminal, but for four?!?! Oh dear oh dear oh dear. I would almost feel sorry for them, but as it's Spurs, rather like a couple of attempted backpasses this afternoon, I fall just short (of doing so).

Having said that, with heavily blue-tinted glasses on, there's some good play by Chelsea for the first three goals (we'll ignore the fourth, that was just silly, and surely has done Johnson's case for inclusion more good than anything he could produce tomorrow). The first goal for instance is really very good anticipation from Eto'o, and a nice finish. The penalty (I confess I've only seen some low-quality video, but looked a touch soft) comes from a nice build-up. It's also a very nice build-up for the third, Matic's pass to Oscar was nicely weighted, and Oscar's cross being behind Sandro probably contributes to the slip.

Like I said, heavily blue-tinted glasses though Very Happy

Good win, we're in a good place right now. Key games are Arsenal at home, which I fancy us to win, and Liverpool away, where I'd be happy with a point. Liverpool-Man City could also be crucial in deciding where the title goes. Might have to support Liverpool, which is a slightly disturbing thought. Oh well, can't be helped.

Finally, allow me one last Laugh

at Spurs's "defending".

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 22:44

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

I'd argue he is a bad manager, well certainly not a Premier League standard one.

He's brought good players, so I'd have no qualms with him spending money. Its just he hasn't a clue how to use em

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat 8 Mar - 22:45

Interesting comments from Sherwood. Bit of a pop at his players for being weak, and realistic about top four.

Mourinho refusing to place his side as favourites. I like his logic, but you take the 9 points not the three games in hand.

by socal1976 Sat 8 Mar - 22:47

Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Champagne_Socialist wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Exactly this.

exactly what? that you don't trust stats? EVERYTHING is a stat. how many assists, how many successful passes, how many successful dribbles, how many successful tackles, how many successful catches, how many shots on target etc etc

It is up to you to look at those stats and decide who has played the best eg who has been the better player for Arsenal, Giroud or Flamini? Giroud's main stats are goals scored and assists whilst flamini's main stats are successful tackles and successful passes.

Now you are saying that stats don't tell everything because a goal from 5 yards out counts as 1 goal just the same as a goal from 30 yards out counts as 1 goal in the goals scored stats data. But there will be detailed stats that highlight how many goals have been scored from outside the area, or with the head, or with the weaker foot etc etc. Everything falls into a stat and thus stats are very accurate in determining how well a player is playing.

Ozil was bought for his assists as that is his main weapon basically along with his very high successful passing completion. So if Ozil finishes the season as the top assists player in the EPL then of course that stat is very important, we would then look at other stats such as his passing stats and goals scored stats to determine in a more detailed manner if he has been a success.

I'll use my own eyes, thanks, to judge whether or not a player is good enough or not good enough. It's what I usually do, not look at some percentage on passing accuracy or tackling success.

Stats are nothing without context.

I wouldn't put much faith in your judgement as I still remember you saying in the summer that man u were the favourites to win the epl this season and that they had the best squad for the 13/14 season because they had won the league the previous season.

LOL! I remember that one CS. People saying Ozil has not made a difference or hasn't been world class just don't know what they are talking about. He has had a drop in form but he had a hand in both goals against liverpool in the previous round of FA cup and was immense today against Everton. In my mind there is still no player in the world that delivers the killer ball like Ozil, in the world, the entire world. And in the game of football that is a huge thing to have on your team. The loss of Ramsey really hurt his form as Aaron would win the ball, find him quickly, and then take up a dangerous position where Ozil could find him with one of his killer, perfectly weighted passes. This season has been a constant adjustment for Ozil, he comes into a new league and new team. He settles in and learns to play with one group of midfielders and then injuries basically decimates Arsenal's midfield and he has to get used to Rosicky, Cazorla, and Ox. I look for him to bounce back in a big way.

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 22:49

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Interesting comments from Sherwood. Bit of a pop at his players for being weak, and realistic about top four.

Mourinho refusing to place his side as favourites. I like his logic, but you take the 9 points not the three games in hand.

Sherwood is a baffling character, ask some of the locals round here about what he got up to during his time in Nodge, very shady stuff...

Kyle Walker incredible lolz

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 8 Mar - 22:49

I'm not sure that you too are actually separate people, just constantly kissing the arse of anything to do with Arsenal, constant complaints about injuries and failing to see any faults.

by socal1976 Sat 8 Mar - 22:56

Hammersmith harrier wrote:I'm not sure that you TWO are actually separate people, just constantly kissing the arse of anything to do with Arsenal, constant complaints about injuries and failing to see any faults.

Here I thought I would fix that for you seeing how you get your panties in a twirl over people's typos and grammatical mistakes.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat 8 Mar - 23:03

Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

I'd argue he is a bad manager, well certainly not a Premier League standard one.

He's brought good players, so I'd have no qualms with him spending money. Its just he hasn't a clue how to use em

Where do you expect to be though? Arguably, you need 8 points from 9 (or 5 games if we pretend the last four are 0 points). If you consider your expectations of this side at the start of the season, you then take into account how hard this year has been with 11 sides fighting relegation, the amount of money clubs in the bottom half spend nowadays, then its a little frustrating but not abysmal.

If you stay up, its one more season of establishing a position and one more summer where you can spend money and make the squad better. Those things have to happen incrementally.

When it comes to it, youve seen teams signing ambitious managers. Solksjaer hasnt done great shakes, Pepe Mel cant win games, Magath is mental. You wouldnt have wanted Pulis, Malky is nothing special nor particularly good.

There is a certain reality to it that isnt patronising. Norwich are not an established Premier League side. Its a ruddy tough thing to do, its an ugly thing to do at times and it requires sticking it out and being patient.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat 8 Mar - 23:06

Wait, so Ozil has been World Class this season?

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 23:21

For a player who can't finish and has no touch Danny Welbeck has scored an awful lot of goals this season

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 8 Mar - 23:23

You're half right, he can't finish but he's got a fabulous touch at times, odd to think he's almost level with Rooney and RVP.

by **Dolphin Ziggler** Sat 8 Mar - 23:24

And Man United look a better team when he plays. By the Ozil standard hes probably World Class

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sat 8 Mar - 23:27

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

I'd argue he is a bad manager, well certainly not a Premier League standard one.

He's brought good players, so I'd have no qualms with him spending money. Its just he hasn't a clue how to use em

Where do you expect to be though? Arguably, you need 8 points from 9 (or 5 games if we pretend the last four are 0 points). If you consider your expectations of this side at the start of the season, you then take into account how hard this year has been with 11 sides fighting relegation, the amount of money clubs in the bottom half spend nowadays, then its a little frustrating but not abysmal.

If you stay up, its one more season of establishing a position and one more summer where you can spend money and make the squad better. Those things have to happen incrementally.

When it comes to it, youve seen teams signing ambitious managers. Solksjaer hasnt done great shakes, Pepe Mel cant win games, Magath is mental. You wouldnt have wanted Pulis, Malky is nothing special nor particularly good.

There is a certain reality to it that isnt patronising. Norwich are not an established Premier League side. Its a ruddy tough thing to do, its an ugly thing to do at times and it requires sticking it out and being patient.

What do I expect? I expect problems to be addressed, I expect after spending the best part of £30 million to see a direction in style of play. I don't see any of this. Last season the problem was lack of goals. It's got worse this year. I don't see any significant style of play, and we've got worse in defence.

This is our third year in the league, we've survived the "second season syndrome", weve spent money to get better, we're miles worse than our last two years, in arguably a worse league (awful teams everywhere this year)

I don't know any potential replacements out there (I'd have to look into it), but I don't buy not changing a manager just cos other teams have done it and made bad appointments.

by Guest Sat 8 Mar - 23:36

Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:
Olly wrote:
Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Probably a fair call actually, hes been hit and miss with money and isnt improving things. I do fear what happens when you get an actual bad manager though.

I'd always thought Hooper looked better this season when Elmander was up there. And really the only other option was keeping an ineffective RVW on or using Becchio, which appears to be unthinkable.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the rest though as I know you'll staunchly defend RVW and you know my thoughts on your defence!

I'd argue he is a bad manager, well certainly not a Premier League standard one.

He's brought good players, so I'd have no qualms with him spending money. Its just he hasn't a clue how to use em

Where do you expect to be though? Arguably, you need 8 points from 9 (or 5 games if we pretend the last four are 0 points). If you consider your expectations of this side at the start of the season, you then take into account how hard this year has been with 11 sides fighting relegation, the amount of money clubs in the bottom half spend nowadays, then its a little frustrating but not abysmal.

If you stay up, its one more season of establishing a position and one more summer where you can spend money and make the squad better. Those things have to happen incrementally.

When it comes to it, youve seen teams signing ambitious managers. Solksjaer hasnt done great shakes, Pepe Mel cant win games, Magath is mental. You wouldnt have wanted Pulis, Malky is nothing special nor particularly good.

There is a certain reality to it that isnt patronising. Norwich are not an established Premier League side. Its a ruddy tough thing to do, its an ugly thing to do at times and it requires sticking it out and being patient.

What do I expect? I expect problems to be addressed, I expect after spending the best part of £30 million to see a direction in style of play. I don't see any of this. Last season the problem was lack of goals. It's got worse this year. I don't see any significant style of play, and we've got worse in defence.

This is our third year in the league, we've survived the "second season syndrome", weve spent money to get better, we're miles worse than our last two years, in arguably a worse league (awful teams everywhere this year)

I don't know any potential replacements out there (I'd have to look into it), but I don't buy not changing a manager just cos other teams have done it and made bad appointments.

There is no argument there Olly. It's as bad as it's been since the mid 90's.

That said, I agree in that you are slightly regressing. Change is needed for Norwich and will come.

When is another matter.

by socal1976 Sat 8 Mar - 23:39

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:Wait, so Ozil has been World Class this season?

Yes absolutely, he has had a rough few weeks but that doesn't change the facts. The guy has galvanized this ARsenal side and has kept them in the running and we are still in it for the league. We have two good matches against City and Chelsea and we are there till the end of the season fighting it for league. I watch the quality of his delivery and his comfort on the ball; despite all of the problems he is one of the top number 10s in the world. I rate a player as world class if he is top 5 in the world at his position. And I think there are very few people who would not put Ozil as one of the 5 best playmakers if not the very best in the world despite his recent slump in form. The guy has been through a lot this season in terms of switching countries, dealing with controversy etc. Lets see how he finishes the season. If he leads Arsenal to a better finish than last year and a trophy in the FA cup, with the injuries Arsenal have had can there be anyone with two functioning brain cells who won't say that he has had a huge impact? We still aren't out of the league title, we are still in the FA cup, so it all depends on how we finish.

by Guest Sat 8 Mar - 23:43

For my money Ozil has been a letdown. I've seen at times a very good player but nothing more.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 8 Mar - 23:46

You're overplaying the impact that Ozil has had on the team, as Silva found out the hard way if you don't have any fight in you then you can drift off for months in this league which simply isn't good enough. Rooney has dips in form but he never stops trying his heart out for the cause, that is what separates world class and the very good in the premier league.

by Guest Sat 8 Mar - 23:47

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Finally, allow me one last :laugh:at Spurs's "defending".

Can I join you Laugh

Another story is & I know it's Daily Mail but they are going with 'Moyes offers Cleverley new 5 year deal worth £15m'. If true, that is incredible lolzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! He would be first out the door this summer along with the OAP's at the club. Clueless management keeping Tom on, way out of his depth at United. Just would further increase fans' frustration in my opinion.

As for Ozil, 'world class' in glimpses. The thing is, he's going to come back even stronger next year physically & he would understand the team, players around him better & be more accustomed to the demands of the EPL. That's when he will be able to deliver 'world class' performances on a more consistant basis.

by socal1976 Sat 8 Mar - 23:48

FreekShow wrote:For my money Ozil has been a letdown. I've seen at times a very good player but nothing more.

I think he had a pretty good match against your boys in the last FA cup tie giving the key pass on both our goals. Like I said a lot depends on how we finish. A lot of even great players can struggle with the adjustments he has had to make.

by lfc91 Sat 8 Mar - 23:52

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2576465/Manchester-United-offer-Tom-Cleverley-new-15million-deal.html

Good or bad news for united fans??

by socal1976 Sat 8 Mar - 23:54

Bergkamp was a world class player, but he played like Poopie when he first made the switch to Italy from Ajax. I think we will see Ozil play a great deal better when all is said and done this season and beyond. I set up what I think is a fair criteria for a world class player. Top 5 at your position, I can't think of five playmakers I would rather have than Ozil. Especially, with Xavi falling off a great deal this year in terms of form and the much heralded Isco being moved to the bench. Cesc another Arsenal player is the only one I would rather have in terms of a pure number 10. In the premiership much has been made of Mata but he hasn't exactly wowed me to death at United and he was benched at Chelsea now that is a real slump in form.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat 8 Mar - 23:59

Put it this way I wouldn't have Ozil at United ever and it's something I said from the start, he's good but he's not in the class of your Hazards, Rooneys or even Modric who's having a great season.

by socal1976 Sun 9 Mar - 0:02

Jose who you rate as a tactical genius like Sun Tzu had Modric as Ozil's understudy. Rooney isn't a playmaking midfielder he is a striker and/or a recessed forward. Still don't see many if any number 10s I would rather have over Ozil. And you bet your bottom dollar if Moyes could buy Ozil he would.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 9 Mar - 0:07

Rooney is a number 10, he is the very definition of the position nor have I ever called Jose a tactical genius. Last season means little this year, on form Modric is performing better than Ozil, as for Isco he was the reason why Ozil was sold.

by Guest Sun 9 Mar - 0:09

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Rooney is a number 10, he is the very definition of the position nor have I ever called Jose a tactical genius. Last season means little this year, on form Modric is performing better than Ozil, as for Isco he was the reason why Ozil was sold.

Socal: Game, set and match.

by socal1976 Sun 9 Mar - 0:15

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Rooney is a number 10, he is the very definition of the position nor have I ever called Jose a tactical genius. Last season means little this year, on form Modric is performing better than Ozil, as for Isco he was the reason why Ozil was sold.

You called Jose the best manager in the world, and said best manager in the world wouldn't let Modric on the field when he had Mesut Ozil. Mesut Ozil has the most assists in Europe the last 5 years. 3 months of good football and a month or two of bad football on Ozil's part doesn't make Modric better than Ozil. They played on the same team for years and he never saw the field. Even Ancellotti recently said he made a mistake in selling Ozil, and Ancellotti started Ozil in every match early this season over Modric. Modric is a very good player, but he is not as good as Ozil. Lets say Rooney is a #10, although he doesn't really play in the same role as Ozil and hasn't throughout his career. I would rate Rooney as better and Cesc, other than that I can't think of a playmaker better than Ozil. You don't become Germany's number 10 at 19 years old if you aren't world class.

by Hammersmith harrier Sun 9 Mar - 0:20

Blah blah blah, if you could point out where I said Mourinho is the best manager in the world that would be much obliged, as for the rest well it's exactly what I expected. Ozil is not playing in La Liga any more his stats from his years at Madrid haven't suddenly made him reappear in the premier league when the going got tough.

What I do remember Modric doing is helping to knock us out of the champions league last year something Ozil didn't contribute to nor did he really contribute against Dortmund or even Barcelona.

As for the Germany thing you would do well to remember that they didn't have the riches in midfield talent they have now back in 2010, times have changed.

by guildfordbat Sun 9 Mar - 0:20

Enjoyed MOTD. Some entertaining games - even before considerng Spurs' comic defending!

Chelsea are now in a very good place even if their manager defies belief in claiming he would like to swap places with Man City.

Thought Man United looked efficient and clinical. Not often that's been said this season.

West Brom and Norwich appear to be doing their best to be the third team relegated along with Fulham and Cardiff.

Meanwhile, the team that continues to impress me is Southampton. Lovely goal by Rodriguez. Great composure and presence of mind to knock the ball in when on the deck rather than first try and get back on his feet when he would almost certainly have lost possession to the Palace defender scampering back.

by Duty281 Sun 9 Mar - 0:21

Ozil world-class this season? Laugh

I've heard nothing but criticism for the past few weeks. A good season yes, but nowhere near a world-class season unless the definition has downgraded dramatically.

by Liam Sun 9 Mar - 0:24

Ozil is most definitely world class, but obviously hasn't been on a consistent basis this season which i slightly expected as this is a whole new league with no winter break in either. It was always going to take him a season or two to adapt. Next year I think he'll be back to his best.

by socal1976 Sun 9 Mar - 0:25

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Blah blah blah, if you could point out where I said Mourinho is the best manager in the world that would be much obliged, as for the rest well it's exactly what I expected. Ozil is not playing in La Liga any more his stats from his years at Madrid haven't suddenly made him reappear in the premier league when the going got tough.

What I do remember Modric doing is helping to knock us out of the champions league last year something Ozil didn't contribute to nor did he really contribute against Dortmund or even Barcelona.

As for the Germany thing you would do well to remember that they didn't have the riches in midfield talent they have now back in 2010, times have changed.

A goal and an assist today and he bossed everything we did today. If Modric was so spectacular why couldn't he see the field when he was on the same team as Ozil. Frankly, Rooney is not a number 10 but a forward. The only two number tens in Ozil's class or possibly as good or better are Cesc and Gotze. A player who has 53 caps for germany by his 25th birthday is probably world class despite your menses' induced rantings.

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