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The future of English rugby looks to be secure. And French too

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The future of English rugby looks to be secure. And French too Empty The future of English rugby looks to be secure. And French too

Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 8:57 pm

1. Thriving club setups with agreed minimum player representation for nationally qualified players

2. Agreed max matches for elite squad players in Eng and Fra, and lengthy training release before important matches

3. U20 6 Nations record
2013/14 (so far) Fra 1st, Eng 2nd (Eng 67- 7 Wales most recently)
2012/13 Eng 1st, Fra 4th
2011/12 Eng 1st, Fra 2nd
2010/11 Eng 1st, Fra 2nd
2009/10 Fra 1st, Eng 2nd
2008/9 Fra 1st, Eng 3rd

France's international team, while currently admittedly poor, is getting results, just like their team that were robbed in the RWC final in 2011.

Both nations have great reasons to be very optimistic about the competitiveness of their international and club sides for the long foreseeable future.

Obviously the money in the games in England and France are drawing in larger numbers of youngsters who can actually imagine a career for 10-15 years with good money, and the benefits of this are being seen in the participation levels at age group rugby.

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Post by tatterd Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:05 pm

Well jolly well done old chap. I guess you can clap each other on the backs then can't you?

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:08 pm

Worst WUM I've ever read. Showing anxiety old boy! Don't let the nerves get to you. I understand your obvious sweaty terror that England could be the first of the four contenders to blink and go out. But hold your nerve! No need to resort to this kind of scared animal in headlights stuff before the game is even played!

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Post by Scratch Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:09 pm

Quins, you're about 24 hrs premature, wrong game mate.

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:11 pm

don't worry. i am sure you will stay almost competitive by importing project players and tenuously qualified SA/NZ rejects.

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Post by Scratch Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:13 pm

quinsforever wrote:don't worry. i am sure you will stay almost competitive by importing project players and tenuously qualified SA/NZ rejects.

yep, Mako, Manu and Billy have loads of mates on our list. thumbsup 

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:16 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Worst WUM I've ever read. Showing anxiety old boy! Don't let the nerves get to you. I understand your obvious sweaty terror that England could be the first of the four contenders to blink and go out. But hold your nerve! No need to resort to this kind of scared animal in headlights stuff before the game is even played!
LOL. i am genuinely surprised at you. How can what i posted above be anything other than comforting about the future of english rugby? at international, club and school level.

it really all confirms to me that the professional private club setup, in conjunction with a sensible union (which france are only on the brink of getting which is why their senior team is inconsistency personified), are what hold the keys to english, french and saffa dominance over the next 20 years plus. Population plus compensation plus opportunity plus coaching = results.

once the opportunity gets big enough (in Eng, Fra, SA), NZ will lose their edge in pacific island recruiting and then it will be all over for them.

this is not a wum. it's the future. best get used to it lads or youre going to be in for a very disappointing slide towards retirement.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:22 pm

I got as far as France being robbed of something...

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Post by Scratch Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:31 pm

Quins stop playing with your balls, they are not made of crystal.

England have had the most money and players for years yet they haven't won anything of note for 11 years bar one 6 Nations when they squandered yet another last week slam opportunity.

20 mins of catch up v Ireland and all of a sudden the chariot is fixed

As for France they may have the wedge but their national side is falling to pieces.

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Post by Taffineastbourne Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:35 pm

A pint of what Quins is on please!

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:39 pm

Yeah, agree Quins, you guys will be #1 after you win the RWC next year and then you guys will build on that success like last time.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:48 pm

ebop wrote:Yeah, agree Quins, you guys will be #1 after you win the RWC next year and then you guys will build on that success like last time.

Laugh

I'd hate to be a mod. This place will explode tomorrow.

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:52 pm

dont say i didnt warn you. the future is inevitable.

england and france's successful club structures are going to be the rocks on which international success is built. doesnt happen overnight. but at some point, after the ARU bankrupts itself, and first choice AB players move to france for 4x the money, then central contracting gets undermined, and its the beginning of a new era.

can't wait.

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:54 pm

ebop wrote:Yeah, agree Quins, you guys will be #1 after you win the RWC next year and then you guys will build on that success like last time.
how does one build on a 30+ year old team. that was a one-off, utterly dominant though it certainly was.

i am talking about the future not the past.

am looking forwards to SA renegotiating their share of SANZAR revenues for example. the pressure that is going to put on ARU coffers in particular is going to give me a certain anti-fiscally-imprudent pleasure.

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Post by Breadvan Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:56 pm

I must say Quins...Ive got to admire your balls.
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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat Mar 08, 2014 9:58 pm

Thing is Quinn's, Australia have already won twice as many world cups as England with 1/100th of the financial resources and 1/500th of the player pool to develop and select.

At the end of the day, rugby is about talent, not schadenfreude and money.

My bet is that if Australia had 28 rugby players in the country who had to fly over standby in a cargo plane and billet out with their mates, England would still wet themselves at the prospect of being drawn in their pool.

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:00 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:I got as far as France being robbed of something...
i feel for you. there's nothing you can really argue with in my post, so you have to feign boredom or confusion. France are just beginning to find their way in the club vs country debate. cant expect you to know that of course. but their newly renegotiated "convention" is the beginning of a new upwards trajectory for their national team.

i confidently predict that Australia will not win another rugby world cup or tri-nations in my lifetime, (do i need to explain why?), and that there will emerge a super-consistent triumvirate of SA, Eng, FR, with possibly NZ on the periphery.

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:01 pm

Australia are history. When the ARU decides to pay its bills, half its players are going back to ARL or coming over to France. End of.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:01 pm

You don't need to explain - the tri nations doesn't exist anymore.

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:02 pm

Do you know how I know your argument is pants?

You've used the words"consistent" and "France" in the same sentence.

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:03 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Thing is Quinn's, Australia have already won twice as many world cups as England with 1/100th of the financial resources and 1/500th of the player pool to develop and select.

At the end of the day, rugby is about talent, not schadenfreude and money.

My bet is that if Australia had 28 rugby players in the country who had to fly over standby in a cargo plane and billet out with their mates,  England would still wet themselves at the prospect of being drawn in their pool.
ask any australian how ARU is doing in comparison to ARL over the last 20 years in terms of participation, finances, spectators.

and remind me, when was the last time Australia won a RWC?

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:05 pm

Around the same time England last won one. Not to mention they made the semi of the last one...oh! And won their annual international series trophy against the #1 and #2 in the world in the same year...remind me how England went?

The ARL comparison is like comparing rugby with football in England.

At least the Aussies haven't had a tantrum and stormed out of their international club competition.

English clubs may have a lot of cash, but currently they have nobody to play with.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:10 pm

What if super rugby expands into Europe and starts chowing down on your lunch? All those expat SH players propping up your comps may have options all of a sudden.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11216482

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:13 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Around the same time England last won one. Not to mention they made the semi of the last one...oh! And won their annual international series trophy against the #1 and #2 in the world in the same year...remind me how England went?

The ARL comparison is like comparing rugby with football in England.

At least the Aussies haven't had a tantrum and stormed out of their international club competition.

English clubs may have a lot of cash, but currently they have nobody to play with.
see this is what you are never going to get. in england there is a separation between clubs and country.

your comment "at least the Aussies..." reveals that for you club is subsidiary to national squad and central contract.

the RFU and English national setup have not changed at all in relation to the changes in European Club competition.

i completely understand that you can't extrapolate from something that you cant understand (independent clubs). but it does seem a bit ironic given your detest of free-loaders, spongers, state handouts, and other inefficiencies created by top-down administration in general.

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:16 pm

ebop wrote:What if super rugby expands into Europe and starts chowing down on your lunch? All those expat SH players propping up your comps may have options all of a sudden.

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11216482
super rugby is an uncommercial competition. there are no away crowds, no atmosphere. it's a made-for-murdoch's-tv spectacle with no spirit and no soul.

did you know that super 15 is commercially worth about 20% of the commercial worth of the Aviva and top14? i did the numbers on a thread a few weeks ago. the comparison was shocking.

and who do you think would be interested in having super 15 play in europe? the english clubs only expressed interest in playing the SA teams. the top14 have no interest in playing anyone else, their domestic league is so vibrant commercially.

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Post by Artful_Dodger Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:19 pm

Another 'smaller nations in European rugby are doomed and England and France are doing brilliantly' post from quinsforever in the same vein as all his European competition posts.

Fascinating.

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Post by RDSguru Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:24 pm

quinsforever wrote:dont say i didnt warn you. the future is inevitable.

Phew.... I'd heard the end of the world is nigh....

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Post by Scratch Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:27 pm

quinsforever wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:I got as far as France being robbed of something...
i feel for you. there's nothing you can really argue with in my post, so you have to feign boredom or confusion. France are just beginning to find their way in the club vs country debate. cant expect you to know that of course. but their newly renegotiated "convention" is the beginning of a new upwards trajectory for their national team.

i confidently predict that Australia will not win another rugby world cup or tri-nations in my lifetime, (do i need to explain why?), and that there will emerge a super-consistent triumvirate of SA, Eng, FR, with possibly NZ on the periphery.

quins wild speculation about the future cannot be argued with because it is just that, wild speculation. There is no basis for your argument, England have always been the richest union in both money and talent and have done nothing with it since 2003. Why now? Because they came back to beat Ireland?

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:28 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:Another 'smaller nations in European rugby are doomed and England and France are doing brilliantly' post from quinsforever in the same vein as all his European competition posts.

Fascinating.  
so nice to have your usual quality commentary on my posts rather than a tiresome attack on me personally. bravo for dispelling my misconceptions about you  thumbsup 

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Post by quinsforever Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:38 pm

Scratch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:I got as far as France being robbed of something...
i feel for you. there's nothing you can really argue with in my post, so you have to feign boredom or confusion. France are just beginning to find their way in the club vs country debate. cant expect you to know that of course. but their newly renegotiated "convention" is the beginning of a new upwards trajectory for their national team.

i confidently predict that Australia will not win another rugby world cup or tri-nations in my lifetime, (do i need to explain why?), and that there will emerge a super-consistent triumvirate of SA, Eng, FR, with possibly NZ on the periphery.

quins wild speculation about the future cannot be argued with because it is just that, wild speculation. There is no basis for your argument, England have always been the richest union in both money and talent and have done nothing with it since 2003. Why now? Because they came back to beat Ireland?
nonsense. the money until the last two years had predominantly been in the international game, 6Nations and RWC. That has only changed very very recently with the massive increase in commercial value of Aviva, top14 and consequently Heineken Cup. My point, as you obviously missed it the first few times, is that it is the success, commercially and developmentally, of the club games that is going to take the national game in Eng and Fr to the next levels.

top14. new tv deal worth EUR360m over 5 years.

SANZARdeal . super15, Lions tours to NZ/SA/Aus, domestic SH competitions, NH national tours to SA/ZN/Aus, AIs, Rugby Championship, - approx EUR350m over 5 years!

the writing is on the wall.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:53 pm

Hahaha, I like your chutzpah Quins. Are we able to use the football Premier League as an example of how club money doesn't translate to international success? At the end of the day, you've either got it, or you don't. Do you guys have it in your DNA is the question.

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Post by Guest Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:55 pm

Ah, that's right, you'll 'buy' DNA. Believe it or not, many of us out there understand national pride and thankfully so do the majority of pro athletes (or the ones worth having anyway).

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Post by GloriousEmpire Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:17 am

Rates in Europe/Britain are about to increase, and when the they do the ££££ will increase and the kiwi and Aus dollar will drop. Since all unions hedge their currency positions it means the existing wealth of the SANZAR unions will stay the same in real terms, but the value of money received from the NH will be comparatively twice as high.

That's gonna help.

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Post by maestegmafia Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:50 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:
ebop wrote:Yeah, agree Quins, you guys will be #1 after you win the RWC next year and then you guys will build on that success like last time.

Laugh

I'd hate to be a mod. This place will explode tomorrow.

Whether we win or lose, I think I will avoid this website until the kids have gone back to school on Monday. Wait for the other adults to return.

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Post by Guest Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:58 am

I bet. But you know, if it's a classic match without any obvious controversy, it should be ok, there are many people on 606 that are very reasonable and gracious.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Mar 09, 2014 10:21 am

quinsforever wrote:1. Thriving club setups with agreed minimum player representation for nationally qualified players.
Did the French clubs agree to have a minimum number of France Qualified players in the clubs or in their every day lineups?  Some clubs appear to have more Anglo speakers than French, such as Toulon.  

The commercial viability of the English and French leagues is indeed strong, and do appear to increasing the gap with other leagues.  If properly managed (big 'if' there) the grass roots should really benefit, as I do believe it is doing in England.  But Rugby is not so strong as a professional sport that it can tolerate a big gulf financialy between the 4 biggest leagues/competitions.  Success needs to be as a group to the max extent possible.

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Post by quinsforever Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:25 pm

toulouse were really upset about the new rules, as many of the newly defined french elite squad will come from their team - which they viewed as an unfair penalty for them having lots of french players in their club side.

i remember it's max 30 matches for elite players, and the same training release around internationals as England have.

cant remember what precise rules are about non-french qualified players. they seem to be very gray because i know that both Armitages count as french-qualified (ie have been playing in france for a minimum amount of time) for Toulon even though obviously they cant play for france.

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Post by SirJohnnyEnglish Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:32 pm

Its french trained not french qualified. Its dependant on the amount of time a player spends in a french academy. Both Armitages played underage in France

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Post by quinsforever Sun Mar 09, 2014 1:33 pm

thx for the correction.  thumbsup 

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Post by fa0019 Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:35 pm

quinsforever wrote:Australia are history. When the ARU decides to pay its bills, half its players are going back to ARL or coming over to France. End of.

AUS haven't been a serious force in 15 years.... It's like the welsh in 1995 thinking that they had a shot at the World Cup in SA because they once had chaps like JPR and Edwards.

Ever since then AUS constantly get beat in the same fashion... Up front and that's how they will get beat in 2015 too. 1 3N title since 2002... And that was when SA and NZ were resting their main players for the forthcoming World Cup in 2011.

No good producing quality back after back after back... If you can produce a single world class front five player in a decade you know you will somewhere along the line get beat.

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Post by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sun Mar 09, 2014 9:57 pm

They should probably break away and join the SANZARS  Rolling Eyes 

The age grade and womens side have been whipping the other euros most games for years now. Second place in the 6 nations or better has been achieved most years in the last decade (distinct lack of fact check here but it sounds right )

The clubs have fallen well behind the level of competitiveness they had in euroland a decade ago.

This is hardly a bumper year for England/start of a new era/the end of wales

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Post by beshocked Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:44 am

I think the Irish would happily say that Irish rugby is looking pretty healthy too.

Clubs doing very well in the HC and Pro12, top of the 6 nations albeit on points difference.

France need to rein in the wild child that is Toulon. Oh and sack Phillipe Saint Andre.

English rugby is looking good I agree.

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