Wales - Looking Ahead

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:31 pm

Not neccessarily the summer tour but certainly by the AIs nest seasons 6 Nations and then obviously the WC who would people really like to see being given a bit of a run to see if they can establish themselves or at least compete for selection and seriously challenge present incumbents.

Props - Well I think we need to consider James first choice now but Gill has impressed me when played so would like to see him given some decent time. The t/head one is in most people eyes Samson Lee but he just doesn't seem to be what Gatland wants.

Hookers - Hibbard has his place in the squad but Owens is challenging him more than ever before and seems more a safer lineout opton. Emyr Phillips maybe given sometime of the bench as well.

2nd rows - I think with AWJ, Charteris, Evans, Coombs, Davies and Ball we are pretty well covered there but whose coming along to challenge them.

6 & 7 - I would like to Lewis Evans given a chance but again in the 6 and 7 position I cant see passed Lydiate, Warburon or Tipuric with Ryan Jones and Shingler being other options.

No8 - Faletau really needs some competition and we need an alternative if (heaven forbid) he gets injured, so Dan Baker, Morgan Allen or Ieuan Jones maybe should be looked at.

No9 - The 2 form players have been Gareth Davies and Richie Rees but none have figured and can't see Rees figuring anyway. I would really like to see Davies given a shot

O/Half - Biggar must surely now be given a chance Preistland has been poor (not deserved all stick he's got though) but then who - Patchell, Tovey, Morgan, Shingler Hook maybe?

Centres - We need the likes of Owen Williams and Cory Allen to really push on now and challenge the trio of Davies, Sc Williams and Doc - Hook or Shingler may again be options any one else? Jack Dixon possibly

Back 3 - We should I imagine get a chance to see how Li Williams goes at XV come Saturday and with Byrne back at Dave next season maybe he could still figure allowing Halfpenny to challenge North and Cuthbert - Again who else at either XV or wing - Amos, Walker, Dirksen, Jordan Williams maybe (what his is best position)

Anyone else coming through, for me the ones I would like to see really given a chance are Samson Lee, one of the No8 options, Lewis Evans Cory Allen and Gareth Davies.

by Scratch Wed 12 Mar 2014, 9:56 pm

Props: James has earned his spurs and i think he should now start. If not Lee then who on the TH?

Hooker: Owens definitely gets the nod from me. He always makes an impact and is the better thrower. He also carries. May make hibbard think.

2nd row: First choice for me would be Charteris and AWJ but both, again, are inconsistent. That said we have a glut of good 2nd rows and if Davies, Ianto and Ball oust either of these 2 then i won't be surprised or unhappy.

Back row: Well Tipuric never exploits his opportunities but again we have a strong back row cadre. Faletau seems to be far too relied upon to carry and as you say if he gets injured what then? lydiate is no longer doing it for me and i would like to see Ryan back in the mix at 6 for a final season. This wont happen.

9. Has to be Davies but why no inclusion in training squad? I like Philipps but accept he is on the wane. Rees seems to be the solution as i don't think Webb is ready.

10. Sorry priest land but you are poor at the basics and must now go, has had so many chances and still makes massive howlers. Biggar on the contrary is confident and solid. Time to bring in Tovey or patch ell as bench cover. No time is a good time but I have lost patience with RP.

12/13. Doc/JD2 and Scott si a great centre selection headache they just need to pERFORM.
Cory Allen seems to be the one to bring on.

Wings: North, Cuthbert, Williams, no real issues. Wlaker or Dirksen to be brought on.

Half: He is injured…feck, what now?

Keep Hook and Ryan Jones warm for their utility option.

Nothing new here really

What i want to see is a change in HOW we play the game. And consistency.
Especially with the boot.
We have abandoned high intensity offload - remember how peel used to cut open the breakdown and we'd pile thourgh, for attempting to arm wrestle and set piece domination. We aren't very good at it.

Do we even consider a change in management…howler and Mcbryde?

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:02 pm

I would definately consider changing Howley and McBryde, who would be an option to take over from Howley? Kingsley Jones would be my choice as forwards coach but he likes his dual Dragons/Russian role at the moment.

I think we need to look as another option for 6 other than Ryan Jones (will he make WC) or do we start to consider Warburton as cover and look at another 7 option.

For Tipuric to flourish we need to change our style, I would like Tovey to be given a go as well.

by Guest Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:03 pm

I think regarding Lee, his fitness levels might not be where they need to be for the Welsh setup.

I liked Corey Allen when he played, he has been classy at the Blues if a bit inexperienced, will be interesting to see his partnership with Williams develop there, the Blues midfield could be Patchell, Allen and O Williams by next season injury permitting. And that young midfield has the potential to be very good.

I think Dirksen and Walker need to get capped, I like them more than the alternatives. In terms of fullback, Dan Evans and possibly Dan Fish if he can maintain his current form could be in contention. With Halfpenny moving to Toulon, Fish is going to have to take his chance.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:07 pm

Yeah forgot about Dan Evans, the one reason I like Walker or Dirksen is they are just different options.

North and Cuthbert are clearly first choice at the moment but both are same style stature etc so always good to have an alternative.

by irnbrew Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:18 pm

For what its worth you welsh fans keep going on about putting Warbs to 6 and bring in Tips Did you know that in the last game that Warbs and Lyds had very near the same stats both equal top tackles both hit the same amount of rucks Warbs 2 carries Lyds 7 And before the last game Lyds was second most tackles of all the players in the 6 nations So i,ve said it before if you want Tips in you have to drop Warby and yes i know Gats will never do that and as you on here have said when Tips has had his chance it has not worked so why o why do you keep on saying the same thing as if its some miracle cure it, not And by the way Tobys stats was poor last game.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:22 pm

Lydiate would be first name on my sheet everytime but like everyone else he needs to feel he has some competition. Which in reality at the moment (R Jones aside) he hasn't.

I think a lot of suggestion putting Warburton at 6 is to fit Tips in knowing Gatland won't drop Warburton but in fairness to him he has had two good games last two outings.

Have said in previous posts if we want to play Tipuric then we have to change our game style.

Lewis Evans is a good option at 6 and Shingler has had good games so all are options I guess but none are seriously challenging Lydiate at the moment.

by offload Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:28 pm

We need some changes but not wholesale revision. Yes we've had a poor 6N's with a shocker in Dublin and lacklustre performance last week. However, the problem is in the font row and half backs. We certanly have the second row, back row, midfield and back three to take to a WC (although not much depth in some key role).

The priority should be developing test standard props and half backs. I'd also like to see some changes in the coaching team. Fresh ideas from some experienced coaches could make a massive difference. Time to be bold.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:31 pm

Whilst I can't ever imagine Edwards being anyones yes man I can imagine Howley and McBryde wake up pinching themselves at how fortunate they have been.

Would Gatland want two (new to Wales) coaches alongside who were their own man etc or would he prefer to keep the lucky ones he has.

by Taffineastbourne Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:35 pm

Agree that coaching staff need an overhaul.If we had performed to our maximum and had been brushed aside I would be concerned.We have not turned up for whatever reasons and got what we deserved.
We need to push on to the next level quietly whilst the English press build to a climax with their RWC winners.

by offload Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:38 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:Whilst I can't ever imagine Edwards being anyones yes man I can imagine Howley and McBryde wake up pinching themselves at how fortunate they have been.

Would Gatland want two (new to Wales) coaches alongside who were their own man etc or would he prefer to keep the lucky ones he has.

When it comes to selection, Gatland has made some "tough" decisions and backed himself. He actually seems to thrive on it. Interesting that he doesn't take the same approach to his coaching team. Anyone on here involved in leadership or team management will know how a sudden injection of new ideas can transform a teams performance. Wales seems to be a perfect candidate for this.

by Scrumpy Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:41 pm

The coaching team needs a shake up, plus a plan B would help.

by Scratch Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:48 pm

Yes bedford Kingsley jones is the natural choice but i can't see it pre RWC. Gtaland is a stubborn mule, to change a fundamental would reflect to close to home i think

by offload Wed 12 Mar 2014, 10:53 pm

Scratch wrote:Yes bedford Kingsley jones is the natural choice but i can't see it pre RWC. Gtaland is a stubborn mule, to change a fundamental would reflect to close to home i think

Shame if true. He was quick to threaten his senior players to motivate them. Let's hope his underachieving coaching team feel a similar pressure.

by quinsforever Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:29 pm

Scrumpy wrote:The coaching team needs a shake up, plus a plan B would help.

scrumps, lets try to only be positive from now one shall we? let's assume humble pie has been eaten by the welsh fans who needed it and now we can all be honest and fair about each other's strengths and weaknesses. peace, love tranquility and solid objective analysis of strengths, weaknesses and opportunities for 6N and RWC 2015...

by Guest Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:32 pm

irnbrew wrote:For what its worth you welsh fans keep going on about putting Warbs to 6 and bring in Tips Did you know that in the last game that Warbs and Lyds had very near the same stats both equal top tackles both hit the same amount of rucks Warbs 2 carries Lyds 7 And before the last game Lyds was second most tackles of all the players in the 6 nations So i,ve said it before if you want Tips in you have to drop Warby and yes i know Gats will never do that and as you on here have said when Tips has had his chance it has not worked so why o why do you keep on saying the same thing as if its some miracle cure it, not And by the way Tobys stats was poor last game.

Apparently Lydiate hasn't missed a tackle yet (according to opta stats or something like that) out of 52 or so. Considering the tackles missed v England, he's clearly still doing his bit and I actually thought he was more effective at carrying the other day too.

Taulupe was pretty guilty of trying to force passes the other day. That was very evident. But then he's not being used properly either, much the same as our usual carriers who are being lined up as the ball they get it so poor.

by Guest Wed 12 Mar 2014, 11:51 pm

Scratch wrote:Yes bedford Kingsley jones is the natural choice but i can't see it pre RWC. Gtaland is a stubborn mule, to change a fundamental would reflect to close to home i think

Kingsley hasn't got that good a reputation has he? I would look at Danny Wilson more than anybody. He has at least turned the Turks around.

by Scratch Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:15 am

More i think about boobie the more having a hooker as head coach is likely to result in blunt instrument rugby, with Shane we had to play heads up because he broke the mould and could do anything from anywhere. But now all we have is boshers from 11-14 with a little bit of footie in JD2….i miss the days of Peel when he would attack the breakdown, even Wellies would occasionally step inside the 10, then we were deadly, behind the line, support running. Imagine big men running into space. Even our 9 has to be a lump- how many times do you read he is an extra flanker - i don't want an extra flanker, i want an ankle biter like Care, Richie Rees i suppose will have to do though i like Davies.

by Guest Thu 13 Mar 2014, 11:21 am

Well I think the style of Wales is clearly trying to replicate South Africas circa 2009 strategy of being very physical with a kick chase game, unfortunately times have changed and we cant play like that now.

I'm sure we'd all love to see the 70s flair again, but I don't think its going to happen, we just need to select players who are capable of heads up rugby.

by BlueNote Thu 13 Mar 2014, 12:13 pm

The way I see it, Wales have used particular players who suit the pretty rigid style of game they have been playing. It looks as though the approach is not going to be enough going forward, whether because the game has developed or other sides have worked out how to deal with it or whatever. But it is those players who are now tried and tested and have the experience, and are mostly very good at what they do. To play a more varied, responsive game might need a change of personnel, but that would mean bringing in less experienced players (and not using some good, experienced players) and maybe an inevitable drop in the short term.

The most obvious problem is 9 & 10 (apart from back-up to Taulupe). To play a quicker, more responsive game, I'd like to see Davies and Patchell.

by Guest Thu 13 Mar 2014, 1:20 pm

Patchell was impressive when he first came onto the scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-NNn5qfL7U

However he has suffered from inconsistency, he was immense in both games against Glasgow in the HC at 10 and 12 but he can be poor at times, I do think this was coached though as he was following the old aimless kicking tactic Wales like. Thankfully Phil Davies has gone now so maybe we can see him take the ball to the line more often.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:13 pm

I think Tovey has something more about him than Patchell but again suffers with inconsistency, the one option Tovey does give us is a left footed option.

by Guest Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:25 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:I think Tovey has something more about him than Patchell but again suffers with inconsistency, the one option Tovey does give us is a left footed option.

My only gripe with Tovey is he seems to be injury prone, or has he overcome that?

by **Biltong** Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:36 pm

Although any coach should coniuously be on the look out to improve his stocks, I firmly beleive Wales' biggest issue is to move on, either to a new coach, or alternatively to finding a new attacking coach, or adding an attacking coach.

I am going to compare them to South Africa for a moment.

Since 2004 when Jake White formulated his game plan, until end of 2011 South Africa never changed their approach one iota.

Not even a single aspect of their game were addressed. Whether you are talking about ruck play, kick and chase, defence etc.

It got so bad that in 2010 and 2011 South Africa against tier one nations barely held onto a 50% win rate.

When you look at 2008-2011 our win rate went down every year.

It was only when Heyneke Meyer came to the realisation at the end of 2012 after injuries and poor form from stalwarts (Morne Steyn, Zane Kirchner etc) forced him to bring in youngsters with vision and a will to play more attacking rugby that he was prepared to change (the kick and chase was originally his method at the Bulls) his thinking, that SA became more effective in attack.

Last year we doubled our tries per game in comparison to 2012

Our approach to the breakdown became smarter and that created quicker ball to attack from, Willie le Roux brought more flair and vision on attack.

Currently the Welsh attack is stale, predictable and nothing has changed since roughly 2008.

Their tactical kicking from Priestland is not good enough and his decision making (thinking back to the tour in Oz) has not improved.

Wales have the most talented backline in Europe (North, Cuthbert, Davies, Roberts and Halfpenny) but no team will reach their full attacking potential if the opportunity is lost at 9 and 10.

That is where the changes should be implemented

by slartibartfast Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:50 pm

North didn't look talented on Saturday. Sad

Biltong, I think gatland agrees with you hence Priestland at 10 and Webb at 9. Where Wales won last champion ship with biggar and Phillips who are boring apparently.

Wales hasn't got a nine that jumps out at you. The super clubs have been poor and so has the players form since the lions.

by Scratch Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:50 pm

Yes we are stale and predictable though i think more in execution than game plan….when played at the right intensity it works, but we have relied so heavily on round the corner and bosh 12 that we need a shake up that doesn't involve mandatory kicking possession away

we need confident footballers at 9 and 10 and a move back to a nippy 9, i always rated Care and his worth to england this year has been immense

as for changing coach well not before RWC and if his mind is on the job for the next 11 games i am optimistic of getting out of the group, i think a change in management personnel might help but again i think Gataldn regards Howler et al as his boys and do not envision he will allow change.

by **Biltong** Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:53 pm

Remember 2007?

Jake White brought in Eddie Jones, it worked.

by quinsforever Thu 13 Mar 2014, 4:56 pm

WRU won't get rid of Gatland. They signed a 6 year contract extension through til the end of 2019 after the Japan RWC.

Getting rid of Gatland would cost the WRU approx GBP2.5M, which in the context of what they are paying for central contracts would be a complete PR disaster.

So like it or not Gatland is not going anywhere.

by Scratch Thu 13 Mar 2014, 5:00 pm

Biltong wrote:Remember 2007?

Jake White brought in Eddie Jones, it worked.

I think you are probably right and Gatland may come under pressure to introduce change, but from who...i think a lot of fans feel that Gtaland is somewhat untouchable as he has produced such an epic run of results in the 6 Nations, I mean now 11/14 wins in the last 3 seasons, domination over results v England and silverware.

I think the lions cost us this year, both in terms of the hangover but also having him be out of camp for so long

And i still think we punch above our weight, with such discord in the regions - to the point where i believe grassroots rugby is fundamentally screwed, and a small player base, we are still the side to beat in europe and did very well at RWC 2011.

it's not enough for me, hasn't been since 2010 but radical change so close to RWC is unlikely

by Guest Thu 13 Mar 2014, 5:00 pm

The Welsh team is a boys club, once you're in, you're in. Hence ignoring form of regional players to favour those who have already been in the team.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 13 Mar 2014, 5:02 pm

Gatland would be laughing all way to bank if they got rid of him but I do think the coaching set up needs some new blood but who?

Who is out there, I doubt anyone worth the salt or established would want to come in as anything less than head coach which menas you go for less established or up and coming coaches

by **Biltong** Thu 13 Mar 2014, 5:03 pm

Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:Remember 2007?

Jake White brought in Eddie Jones, it worked.

I think you are probably right and Gatland may come under pressure to introduce change, but from who...i think a lot of fans feel that Gtaland is somewhat untouchable as he has produced such an epic run of results in the 6 Nations, I mean now 11/14 wins in the last 3 seasons, domination over results v England and silverware.

I think the lions cost us this year, both in terms of the hangover but also having him be out of camp for so long

And i still think we punch above our weight, with such discord in the regions - to the point where i believe grassroots rugby is fundamentally screwed, and a small player base, we are still the side to beat in europe and did very well at RWC 2011.

it's not enough for me, hasn't been since 2010 but radical change so close to RWC is unlikely

The question you have to ask yourself is whether it is good enough to win against your peers in Europe, but coming short against the top three teams?

I suspect your answer will be no, it isn't good enough.

The simple fact is then change is necessary, how depends on the powers that be.

There is a rWC next year, to win the RWC you will have to beat at least two of the top three in all likelyhood.

by Scratch Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:20 pm

Biltong wrote:
Scratch wrote:
Biltong wrote:Remember 2007?

Jake White brought in Eddie Jones, it worked.

I think you are probably right and Gatland may come under pressure to introduce change, but from who...i think a lot of fans feel that Gtaland is somewhat untouchable as he has produced such an epic run of results in the 6 Nations, I mean now 11/14 wins in the last 3 seasons, domination over results v England and silverware.

I think the lions cost us this year, both in terms of the hangover but also having him be out of camp for so long

And i still think we punch above our weight, with such discord in the regions - to the point where i believe grassroots rugby is fundamentally screwed, and a small player base, we are still the side to beat in europe and did very well at RWC 2011.

it's not enough for me, hasn't been since 2010 but radical change so close to RWC is unlikely

The question you have to ask yourself is whether it is good enough to win against your peers in Europe, but coming short against the top three teams?

I suspect your answer will be no, it isn't good enough. No way is it good enough.

The simple fact is then change is necessary, how depends on the powers that be. who are the powers that be? Point is Gtaland can quote his domestic record which is nigh on perfect, 3 Championships and 2 Slams in 6 years and an RWC semi.

There is a rWC next year, to win the RWC you will have to beat at least two of the top three in all likelyhood.

Let's start in SA this summer...

by quinsforever Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:33 pm

think you'll find that's 4 championships and 3 slams in 10 years there scratch.

still good, and combined with Gatland's 6yr contract extension, guarantee no-one is going to fire him.

by Knowsit17 Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:33 pm

IronMike wrote:I think regarding Lee, his fitness levels might not be where they need to be for the Welsh setup.

I liked Corey Allen when he played, he has been classy at the Blues if a bit inexperienced, will be interesting to see his partnership with Williams develop there, the Blues midfield could be Patchell, Allen and O Williams by next season injury permitting. And that young midfield has the potential to be very good.

I think Dirksen and Walker need to get capped, I like them more than the alternatives. In terms of fullback, Dan Evans and possibly Dan Fish if he can maintain his current form could be in contention. With Halfpenny moving to Toulon, Fish is going to have to take his chance.

I see this parroted constantly on the issue of Lee not getting a look in. Yet if he's so unfit why is he first choice at PYS ahead of Adriaanse, Manu and Rhodri himself? Logically he's probably fitter than the latter as Lee is more involved and starts for the Scarlets more often than not while Rhodri's main contribution at the same club is sitting on the bench.

Also, looking back at his time with the u20's, Lee did not, in the slightest, come across as somebody lacking fitness. He completed most games and absolutely obliterated some of the opposition front rows he came up against.

It's one of those issues where Gatland seems to reside on a different plain of reality to most people (with Scott "Kelly Brown at 7" Johnson to keep him company).

by Scratch Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:38 pm

quinsforever wrote:think you'll find that's 4 championships and 3 slams in 10 years there scratch.

still good, and combined with Gatland's 6yr contract extension, guarantee no-one is going to fire him.

thanks for checking the content of all my posts quins, much appreciated and honored that you check every fact, keep up the good work thumbsup

by bedfordwelsh Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:45 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
IronMike wrote:I think regarding Lee, his fitness levels might not be where they need to be for the Welsh setup.

I liked Corey Allen when he played, he has been classy at the Blues if a bit inexperienced, will be interesting to see his partnership with Williams develop there, the Blues midfield could be Patchell, Allen and O Williams by next season injury permitting. And that young midfield has the potential to be very good.

I think Dirksen and Walker need to get capped, I like them more than the alternatives. In terms of fullback, Dan Evans and possibly Dan Fish if he can maintain his current form could be in contention. With Halfpenny moving to Toulon, Fish is going to have to take his chance.

I see this parroted constantly on the issue of Lee not getting a look in. Yet if he's so unfit why is he first choice at PYS ahead of Adriaanse, Manu and Rhodri himself? Logically he's probably fitter than the latter as Lee is more involved and starts for the Scarlets more often than not while Rhodri's main contribution at the same club is sitting on the bench.

Also, looking back at his time with the u20's, Lee did not, in the slightest, come across as somebody lacking fitness. He completed most games and absolutely obliterated some of the opposition front rows he came up against.

It's one of those issues where Gatland seems to reside on a different plain of reality to most people (with Scott "Kelly Brown at 7" Johnson to keep him company).

I wonder do the Regions and Wales have different fitness standards, is Lee expected to reach a higher level within the Welsh camp than the Scarelts pack I don't know but something seems very strange.

Why is Gatland not willing to play a young untried but natural T/Head but happy to go with a young untried converted L/Head.

by Knowsit17 Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:51 pm

Maybe Gatland doesn't like gingers and/or beards in his side. Would explain why he'll only consider picking Ball as a last resort, when Charteris, AWJ, Davies and Evans are all suffering injuries or banned.

by Scratch Thu 13 Mar 2014, 7:52 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:Maybe Gatland doesn't like gingers and/or beards in his side. Would explain why he'll only consider picking Ball as a last resort, when Charteris, AWJ, Davies and Evans are all suffering injuries or banned.

Heaven forbid he is like SCW the beardie bigot!

by quinsforever Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:11 pm

Scratch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:think you'll find that's 4 championships and 3 slams in 10 years there scratch.

still good, and combined with Gatland's 6yr contract extension, guarantee no-one is going to fire him.

thanks for checking the content of all my posts quins, much appreciated and honored that you check every fact, keep up the good work

no worries scratch. i read most peoples posts. checking every fact in yours doesnt involve much work. one search of the rbs 6nations site every couple of days. Laugh

by Scratch Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:36 pm

quinsforever wrote:
Scratch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:think you'll find that's 4 championships and 3 slams in 10 years there scratch.

still good, and combined with Gatland's 6yr contract extension, guarantee no-one is going to fire him.

thanks for checking the content of all my posts quins, much appreciated and honored that you check every fact, keep up the good work
no worries scratch. i read most peoples posts. checking every fact in yours doesnt involve much work. one search of the rbs 6nations site every couple of days.

well let's face sit, you won't find much on there from on an England point of view will you! Doh

by Guest Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:38 pm

bedfordwelsh wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
IronMike wrote:I think regarding Lee, his fitness levels might not be where they need to be for the Welsh setup.

I liked Corey Allen when he played, he has been classy at the Blues if a bit inexperienced, will be interesting to see his partnership with Williams develop there, the Blues midfield could be Patchell, Allen and O Williams by next season injury permitting. And that young midfield has the potential to be very good.

I think Dirksen and Walker need to get capped, I like them more than the alternatives. In terms of fullback, Dan Evans and possibly Dan Fish if he can maintain his current form could be in contention. With Halfpenny moving to Toulon, Fish is going to have to take his chance.

I see this parroted constantly on the issue of Lee not getting a look in. Yet if he's so unfit why is he first choice at PYS ahead of Adriaanse, Manu and Rhodri himself? Logically he's probably fitter than the latter as Lee is more involved and starts for the Scarlets more often than not while Rhodri's main contribution at the same club is sitting on the bench.

Also, looking back at his time with the u20's, Lee did not, in the slightest, come across as somebody lacking fitness. He completed most games and absolutely obliterated some of the opposition front rows he came up against.

It's one of those issues where Gatland seems to reside on a different plain of reality to most people (with Scott "Kelly Brown at 7" Johnson to keep him company).

I wonder do the Regions and Wales have different fitness standards, is Lee expected to reach a higher level within the Welsh camp than the Scarelts pack I don't know but something seems very strange.

Why is Gatland not willing to play a young untried but natural T/Head but happy to go with a young untried converted L/Head.

I imagine so, test rugby is a step up after all and the tempo is generally higher. You have to remember they are athletes and test rugby is meant to be the cream of the crop, if you're not at peak fitness you wont make it. Though I'll concede that its the coaches decision at the end of the day.

by quinsforever Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:41 pm

dont understand what you just said.

i go to the 6Nations website for factual information, not gratification, and there is as much factual information on their website, all provided and tracked by Accenture, on each nation in the competition.

by quinsforever Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:41 pm

Scratch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:
Scratch wrote:
quinsforever wrote:think you'll find that's 4 championships and 3 slams in 10 years there scratch.

still good, and combined with Gatland's 6yr contract extension, guarantee no-one is going to fire him.

thanks for checking the content of all my posts quins, much appreciated and honored that you check every fact, keep up the good work
no worries scratch. i read most peoples posts. checking every fact in yours doesnt involve much work. one search of the rbs 6nations site every couple of days.

well let's face sit, you won't find much on there from on an England point of view will you!

you can do all the face sitting you like. i prefer a chair

by bedfordwelsh Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:43 pm

IronMike wrote:
bedfordwelsh wrote:
Knowsit17 wrote:
IronMike wrote:I think regarding Lee, his fitness levels might not be where they need to be for the Welsh setup.

I liked Corey Allen when he played, he has been classy at the Blues if a bit inexperienced, will be interesting to see his partnership with Williams develop there, the Blues midfield could be Patchell, Allen and O Williams by next season injury permitting. And that young midfield has the potential to be very good.

I think Dirksen and Walker need to get capped, I like them more than the alternatives. In terms of fullback, Dan Evans and possibly Dan Fish if he can maintain his current form could be in contention. With Halfpenny moving to Toulon, Fish is going to have to take his chance.

I see this parroted constantly on the issue of Lee not getting a look in. Yet if he's so unfit why is he first choice at PYS ahead of Adriaanse, Manu and Rhodri himself? Logically he's probably fitter than the latter as Lee is more involved and starts for the Scarlets more often than not while Rhodri's main contribution at the same club is sitting on the bench.

Also, looking back at his time with the u20's, Lee did not, in the slightest, come across as somebody lacking fitness. He completed most games and absolutely obliterated some of the opposition front rows he came up against.

It's one of those issues where Gatland seems to reside on a different plain of reality to most people (with Scott "Kelly Brown at 7" Johnson to keep him company).

I wonder do the Regions and Wales have different fitness standards, is Lee expected to reach a higher level within the Welsh camp than the Scarelts pack I don't know but something seems very strange.

Why is Gatland not willing to play a young untried but natural T/Head but happy to go with a young untried converted L/Head.

I imagine so, test rugby is a step up after all and the tempo is generally higher. You have to remember they are athletes and test rugby is meant to be the cream of the crop, if you're not at peak fitness you wont make it. Though I'll concede that its the coaches decision at the end of the day.

So in that case the rumours or reports on him not being fit enough could be right, just because he's fit for Scarlets not mean he's fit for Wales but is a fit but not natural T/Head likely to do any better than a not so fit but natural T/Head?

by Knowsit17 Thu 13 Mar 2014, 8:58 pm

So Rhodri Jones isn't fit enough for Scarlets (where he doesn't get to play much) yet fit enough for Wales? That wouldn't appear to make much sense. What precisely has he done for Wales that Lee wouldn't be capable of? I can't remember Rhodri ever having completed 80 mins for Wales which again undermines this notion that he's proven himself fitness-wise.

by bedfordwelsh Thu 13 Mar 2014, 9:08 pm

Knowsit,

I think everyone outside the Welsh squad is wondering that, it just doesn't make sense.

Some of said Lees fitness is poor yet he has proved himself at Regional level.

Others have said that Gatland is nurturing him and taking his time so why through Rh Jones to the wolves etc etc.

Its the one thing that is very strange.

by Knowsit17 Thu 13 Mar 2014, 9:12 pm

Hence my inclination to believe that Gatland is simply on a different cloud to most other people in the game. I've pretty much given up trying to find any rational explanation for it.

by Guest Thu 13 Mar 2014, 9:23 pm

There's no way Samson Lee is lacking behind in the fitness stakes behind Adam anyway. I'm not convinced.

Besides which, I don't want an athlete, I want a mean tighthead who will scrummage and isn't struggling to adapt to the new laws. I don't care what he offers around the field. Jones is likely to get a bit of a tough time v Grant and that's no good for his development. At least a scrummager (even at regional level) would stand a good chance and Gatland has persisted for long enough with Adam Jones anyway, when he didn't really do a great deal around the park. Also we are supposed to have top drawer fitness coaches etc available to Wales, so they've had plenty of time to get a grip of Lee by now if there is an issue.

by bedfordwelsh Fri 14 Mar 2014, 1:35 pm

Its a shame they won't come out and explain why they are choosing Rh Jones over Lee, I guess the individuals themselves know or hope they do at least.

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