Irish team of the last half century?

by captain carrantuohil Sat 22 Mar 2014, 5:26 pm

A few of us were talking about the great Irish players and teams in the wake of the championship win last Saturday. Having almost made the two and a half score mark myself, I thought it might be worth seeing how many of this generation might get into the best Irish side of the last 50 years or so. Here is a possible XV off the top of my head:

1) Cian Healy 2) Keith Wood 3) Ray McLoughlin 4) Willie John McBride 5) Paul O'Connell 6) Stephen Ferris 7) Fergus Slattery 8) Willie Duggan 9) Colin Patterson 10) Tony Ward 11) Simon Geoghegan 12) Mike Gibson 13) Brian O'Driscoll 14) Tommy Bowe 15) Tom Kiernan

8 and 10 the toughest positions there, for me - Goodall or Duggan? Ward, Campbell or Sexton? As it turns out, we have five from Ulster, 4 each from Leinster and Munster and 2 from Connacht, so it's quite equitably shared around. 5 from the current vintage, which may be a bit of a rose-tinted view of the past. Don't know - what do you lot think? Some great players have worn the green over the years.

by Feckless Rogue Sat 22 Mar 2014, 6:16 pm

Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie should be considered.

It's also silly considering the pro era and amateur era together. I heard someone on here say that Willie John McBride was smaller and lighter than 5 of the centres in the recent England France game. Mike Gibson was smaller that most modern scrum halfs.

by Shifty Sat 22 Mar 2014, 6:33 pm

I'd put Mike Gibson at 10, Brendan Mullin at 12, and BOD at 13.

There is no way Nick Popplewell isn't getting into that all time team, especially ahead of the props you have picked. I'd make an argument for Paul Wallace as well.

Keith Wood, Willie John McBride, Fergus Slattery, and Paul O'Connell walk into the team.

by KiaRose Sat 22 Mar 2014, 9:36 pm

Tony O'Reilly?

Still the record-holder for tries for the Lions; Last played for Ireland 1970 and yes, I know that was a bit of an embarrassemnt, but still fits your criterion of "last 50 years" but a brilliant player.

Noel Murphy at 6?

by GunsGerms Sat 22 Mar 2014, 11:46 pm

Never heard of colin Patterson so he cant be as good as Stringer?

by GunsGerms Sat 22 Mar 2014, 11:49 pm

Dream team other than that

by GunsGerms Sun 23 Mar 2014, 12:08 am

Feckless Rogue wrote:Shane Horgan and Denis Hickie should be considered.

It's also silly considering the pro era and amateur era together. I heard someone on here say that Willie John McBride was smaller and lighter than 5 of the centres in the recent England France game. Mike Gibson was smaller that most modern scrum halfs.

They should but neither was as good as Bowe nor Goeghegan

by Taylorman Sun 23 Mar 2014, 4:47 am

I liked the Ollie Campbell, Tony Ward duel of 80's, from memory Campbell managing to keep Ward out in the end. Bit of a luxury having the two at the same time.

by The Great Aukster Sun 23 Mar 2014, 11:30 am

My team of the last half century is about legends, characters who achieved renown outside Ireland and therefore all likely to be Lions.

1. Syd Millar - the epitome of everything rugby and has represented Ireland right up to the IRB with distinction
2. Keith Wood - redefined the hooker position with his try scoring and footballing skills
3. John "Bull" Hayes - castigated all his career in the scrum, yet rarely got bested, but his one man lifts in the lineout were 'ligend'.
4. Willie-John McBride - forever woven into the fabric of rugby history
5. Paul O'Connell - nuff said
6. John O'Driscoll - The good doctor was the perfect foil for Slattery and was probably the most distinguished Irish 6 in a red shirt - although not quite as famous as his nephew!
7. Fergus Slattery - The equivalent of McCaw in his day and still talked about today
8. Ken Goodall - young prodigy who looked to be seriously special and was then lost to Ireland by switching codes
9. Colin Patterson - The original sniping scrum-half, but had the pass and game management too. Another tragic loss to Ireland but his quality was unquestioned after being selected for the Lions test side after so few Ireland caps.
10. Tony Ward - Legendary for his part in the downfall of the Blacks and unfortunate to be involved in a classic 'style v substance' duel with Campbell for the Ireland 10 shirt
11. Simon Geoghegan - Wasn't a Lion but should have been in the biggest travesty of political selection. Consistently remembered as a player who brought excitement whenever he played
12. Mike Gibson - Probably the highest rated Irish player by other nations and rightly so
13. Brian O'Driscoll - Universally loved (except by Gatland)
14. Tony O'Reilly - Amazing rugby player, amazing man
15. Tom Kiernan - legendary kicker who once kicked a goal from the halfway line (the ball probably weighed 2 stone!).

by Guest Mon 24 Mar 2014, 9:03 am

KiaRose wrote:Tony O'Reilly?

Still the record-holder for tries for the Lions; Last played for Ireland 1970 and yes, I know that was a bit of an embarrassemnt, but still fits your criterion of "last 50 years" but a brilliant player.

Noel Murphy at 6?

O'Reilly tells a great story against himself from his last turn-out for Ireland, against England at Twickenham in 1970 - embarrassing as you say, but hardly a surprise as he was called up to overcome a wing crisis years after he'd retired from international rugby. After all, he'd debuted for the Lions as far back as 1955 and had scored his record 21 tries on the 1959 Lions tour of New Zealand.

Anyway, by 1970 he had become the boss of Heinz - a big job - and turned up for training the week before in a chauffeur-driven Rolls. On match-day O'Reilly's mode of transport was the same.

After the game O'Reilly told the story of how he'd been tackled and found himself at the bottom of a pile of England players. He heard a voice in the crowd shout : "And while you're at it, kick his b****y chauffeur as well!" It was an Irish voice!

by **Notch** Mon 24 Mar 2014, 9:15 am

optimist wrote:After the game O'Reilly told the story of how he'd been tackled and found himself at the bottom of a pile of England players. He heard a voice in the crowd shout : "And while you're at it, kick his b****y chauffeur as well!" It was an Irish voice!

by SecretFly Mon 24 Mar 2014, 9:31 am

Tony O'Reilly?

............have not heard of the man.

The only person who might come remotely close to such a name is the famous man with possibly most Initials in the world, Sir Dr. A.J.F. O'Reilly AO, MA. PHD HJ Heinz III etc, etc.?

Would that be who we're speaking of? Wink

by san Mon 24 Mar 2014, 12:39 pm

8. Ken Goodall - young prodigy who looked to be seriously special and was then lost to Ireland when he dedicated his life to studying chimpanzees.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Mar 2014, 3:35 pm

Shifty wrote:I'd put Mike Gibson at 10, Brendan Mullin at 12, and BOD at 13.

I would be tempted to do the same. Would love to have seen what Mullin could have done in a decent team.

by Geordie Mon 24 Mar 2014, 3:45 pm

11. Simon Geoghegan - Wasn't a Lion but should have been in the biggest travesty of political selection. Consistently remembered as a player who brought excitement whenever he played

What a player he was! Class...what rugby should be about.

by geoff998rugby Mon 24 Mar 2014, 3:48 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Shifty wrote:I'd put Mike Gibson at 10, Brendan Mullin at 12, and BOD at 13.

I would be tempted to do the same. Would love to have seen what Mullin could have done in a decent team.

I wouldn't - Gibson a much better 12 and he and BOD shoudl be kept together.

by jimbopip Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:11 pm

I was in a public house the other evening with friends from the rugby club and I opined that Ireland could put out an all time best team which would have a 10-12-13 of Kyle-Gibson-O'Driscoll.
Very few nations could compete with that said I. Sadly I forgot I was drinking with Englishmen. You can imagine what I had to listen to.
Upon sober reflection;
Dan Carter-Tana Umanga-Walter Little would be worth a look.
or
Larkham-Ella-Jason Little isn't too shabby either.

As a Scot I couldn't come up with a trio to stand alongside those above, any ideas?

by Geordie Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:18 pm

Lynagh - Horan - Little was impressive.

by fa0019 Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:25 pm

In terms of my era of recollection (so late 80s onwards)

I would say probably Townsend, Hastings & Tait at 10,12 & 13.

Don't under estimate how good that trio could have been together.

Firstly they nearly overlapped as a trio.

Townsend was a sublime attacking 10 in his youth, probably the finest the home nations have produced in the pro era.
Hastings was a superb tackler, his partnership with Guscott was massive and had he not smashed himself up it would have strengthed the lions in 93 too.
Tait, his best years were missed to league but given his later years were still so high in standard had he had his best years in union I'm sure it would have been up there with the very very best.

3 capped lions as first choice players in massively competitive tours where series against the finest players on the planet went to the wire...and where all 3 performed well above expectations.

by fa0019 Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:27 pm

2001 England had a very unique trio though in Wilkinson, Catt & Greenwood. That would take some beating in a theoretical sequence let alone in reality.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:30 pm

fa0019 wrote:In terms of my era of recollection (so late 80s onwards)

I would say probably Townsend, Hastings & Tait at 10,12 & 13.

Don't under estimate how good that trio could have been together.

Fairly tasty alright

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:32 pm

Rutherford, Renwick, McGeechan

by Scrumpy Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:34 pm

No Maggs?

by fa0019 Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:36 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
11. Simon Geoghegan - Wasn't a Lion but should have been in the biggest travesty of political selection. Consistently remembered as a player who brought excitement whenever he played

What a player he was! Class...what rugby should be about.

If he wasn't injured he must have done something wrong, rubbed people up the wrong way etc... I mean Richard Wallace toured in 93..... that guy was useless. He vyed with Peter Wright as the worst lion of the tour and is up there with selections such as Keith Earls, Shane Bryne, Colin Charvis, Lee Mears, Ian Evans, Ross Ford etc etc. Andy Powell would get onto this list on playing performance but he's a top laugh!

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:45 pm

...Ollie Smith, Ian Balshaw?

by fa0019 Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:49 pm

Balshaw was a bad tourist, sort of got found out.

Smith.... I always thought his career was terribly mismanaged. Like Tait his career was badly managed both by club and country. Always one for me who had all the tools but for some reason it never happened.

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Mar 2014, 4:50 pm

What about Matt Perry?

by fa0019 Mon 24 Mar 2014, 5:00 pm

GunsGerms wrote:What about Matt Perry?

Did alright in my book? Took his chance no?

by GunsGerms Mon 24 Mar 2014, 5:02 pm

Cant really remember on that tour but in general didnt think he was a great player.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 24 Mar 2014, 9:26 pm

GunsGerms wrote:...Ollie Smith, Ian Balshaw?

Are you mocking the same Ollie Smith that BOD described as one of the best centres he ever played with?

by Shifty Mon 24 Mar 2014, 10:17 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
11. Simon Geoghegan - Wasn't a Lion but should have been in the biggest travesty of political selection. Consistently remembered as a player who brought excitement whenever he played

What a player he was! Class...what rugby should be about.

Are you guys serious?

Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans picked themselves as Lions wingers in that era, and both achieved far more than Simon Geoghegan ever got close too. Simon Geoghegan could also play full back but he wasn't in the same league as Gavin Hastings. I would say it was unfair he was left out of the 1993 touring party, because I think Ian Hunter went ahead of him, and he was average though. But he was never a test Lion.

Sorry I know the Irish loved him, but it wasn't a travesty he wasn't a capped Lion, he simply wasn't as good as the players ahead of him. He was injury prone and his form very erratic, and he was regularly dropped by Bath. I remember Ieuan Evans knocking him on his back side a few times over the years and Ieuan was actually a fair bit smaller than him!

Goto too 2:06 on this video and see Wales make a sweeping length of the field try, then at 2:30 watch Ieuan simply knock Geoghegan on his back side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1vhXUiwx1o

Simon Geoghegan is good enough for an Ireland all time XV, the truth is Ireland just haven't produced that many great wingers though.

by **George Carlin** Tue 25 Mar 2014, 7:09 am

In terms of good combos, Sarries played in 1996 with Lynagh at 10 and Sella at 13.

A 12 Gibson 13 BOD midfield is potentially the best that the Lions ever produced. Longevity of each player over 15 years was amazing.

Also feel for Brendan Mullin who stood out a mile from his teammates in terms of quality. Geoghegan always looked incredibly fast but I never saw him score that many. Then again, Bill McLaren once describe him as "like a mad octopus" so he's surely a ligind for that alone.

by fa0019 Tue 25 Mar 2014, 9:02 am

Shifty wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
11. Simon Geoghegan - Wasn't a Lion but should have been in the biggest travesty of political selection. Consistently remembered as a player who brought excitement whenever he played

What a player he was! Class...what rugby should be about.

Are you guys serious?

Rory Underwood and Ieuan Evans picked themselves as Lions wingers in that era, and both achieved far more than Simon Geoghegan ever got close too. Simon Geoghegan could also play full back but he wasn't in the same league as Gavin Hastings. I would say it was unfair he was left out of the 1993 touring party, because I think Ian Hunter went ahead of him, and he was average though. But he was never a test Lion.

Sorry I know the Irish loved him, but it wasn't a travesty he wasn't a capped Lion, he simply wasn't as good as the players ahead of him. He was injury prone and his form very erratic, and he was regularly dropped by Bath. I remember Ieuan Evans knocking him on his back side a few times over the years and Ieuan was actually a fair bit smaller than him!

Goto too 2:06 on this video and see Wales make a sweeping length of the field try, then at 2:30 watch Ieuan simply knock Geoghegan on his back side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1vhXUiwx1o

Simon Geoghegan is good enough for an Ireland all time XV, the truth is Ireland just haven't produced that many great wingers though.

Can you explain why Richard Wallace toured ahead of him... I can't remember Geoghegan being injured at the time. I would have preferred Wade Dooley on the wing rather than Wallace.

Evans was a tough lad, thats undeniable, he used to simply stop for the tackle and bounce people off him. Geoghegan however was one of the few players who could trouble Underwood in his prime.

by GunsGerms Tue 25 Mar 2014, 9:33 am

Geoghegan if I remember correctly pi$$ed some IRFU people off by taking off his jersey after a game and throwing on the ground in protest against a really bad Ireland performance v England. (Someone else may need to confirm if this is true) He was an ultra passionate player and maybe some coaches found this passion hard to harness. I believe his relationship with the IRFU wasnt always good.

Shifty Geoghegan was one of the best players in the history of NH rugby not to be a Lion. For the 97 tour the management kept a place on the tour open for him until the very last minute despite him being chronically injured. He didnt make it but it is rare that Lions management would do this for anyone.

"The truth is Ireland havent produced that many great wingers"

There have been plenty of good Irish Lions wingers.

Tony O'Reilly - One of the most capped Lions wingers ever
Tommy Bowe - 5 Lions caps over the last two tours.
Denis Hickie
Shane Horgan
Trevor Ringland

Luke Fitzgerald and Simon Zebo may someday be considered good too.

by captain carrantuohil Tue 25 Mar 2014, 10:12 am

Nice to see so many responses. Have to say that I've never thought of wing as an area in which Ireland has historically had problems. O'Reilly would certainly be in my all-time Irish XV; not sure that we can say that his sporadic appearances in the last 50 years entitle him to a place in this side, though. Tom Grace was a fabulous wing (much better than the non-tackling Ringland), as was Alan Duggan, just to add to Guns' little list.

One position where Ireland has definitely been light over the years is scrum-half. Colin Patterson is the one Irish 9 I've ever seen who had all the skills - brilliant pass, tough, quick. He fell victim to that injury-scourged Lions tour of 1980, otherwise there would probably be absolutely no debate about his position in this team. Stringer was capable and willing, but no more than that - think that Murray has the potential to earn himself a very good reputation by the time he's done.

One word about the props - anyone wanting to put a different name ahead of Ray McLoughlin at tight-head needs to be able to construct one hell of a case. McLoughlin was one of the great scientific scrummagers of all time, a cornerstone for Ireland and the Lions, and had the rare distinction of being equally effective on either side of the scrum. I've chosen him as a tight-head, but wouldn't mind sticking him at 1, with someone like Sean Lynch as the answer at tight-head. Ireland have had more great loose-heads (Orr, Popplewell etc can be added to consideration), which is why I've put McLoughlin at 3. However, he simply has to start somewhere. No Irish prop has ever been better at the nuts and bolts of his position.

by The Great Aukster Tue 25 Mar 2014, 1:54 pm

Captain - I was the one who put Hayes in my team - because he has more legendary status than Ray McLoughlin, and enough ability to go on two Lions tours, (compared to RMcL's one).

I wouldn't dispute that RMcL was technically great but most people who even remember him confuse him with the much more celebrated Gerry "ginger" McLoughlin (a TH).

Syd Millar although able to play both sides was primarily a TH, and was both technically excellent and would undoubtedly be in the Ireland all time hall of fame.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 25 Mar 2014, 1:59 pm

I'd have thought 15 would be pretty hard fought. I don't know much about Kiernan, but in recent time Irelands have been blessed at 15 with Murphy, Dempsey and Kearney.

by captain carrantuohil Tue 25 Mar 2014, 2:06 pm

McLoughlin went on two Lions tours as well, Great Aukster, although he was one of a number to be invalided home from the 1971 tour after the Battle of Canterbury, when his thumb was broken. RM would probably have started in the Tests but for that. Syd Millar is a great shout, mind, and on reflection I'd put him in the front row with McLoughlin and stick Healy on the bench with Sean Lynch.

by GunsGerms Tue 25 Mar 2014, 2:20 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:I'd have thought 15 would be pretty hard fought. I don't know much about Kiernan, but in recent time Irelands have been blessed at 15 with Murphy, Dempsey and Kearney.

I always thought Staples was quite good too. Before my time but Hugo McNeill was good too I think.

by ME-109 Tue 25 Mar 2014, 2:39 pm

Kiernan as both a player and Manager was a major driving force for Irish rugby. As FB he was the leader and tactician on field at a time when Ireland and toured twice with the Lions (once as Captain)...scored 26 tries in 54 games for Ireland.

For Scrumhalf Patterson would have been a great but injury cut his time short. Mick Bradley may not have been a great SH but he was a great leader on the pitch.

by The Great Aukster Tue 25 Mar 2014, 6:19 pm

The suspicion was Bradley was a picked because of his connections rather than his ability, so he does have some infamy! Come to think of it he's really well known in Scotland too...

Thinking of previous Irish Scrumhalfs, John Robbie comes to mind who came in when Patterson got injured for the Lions. He liked South Africa so much he emigrated there! With the mention of Staples above, I wonder is there a team of IQ players lost to rugby prematurely:
1. Horan/McCormack
2. Jackman/Sheehan/Fogarty/Flannery
3. Paul Wallace/Simon Best
4. Jeremy Davidson
5. Matt McCullough
6. David Wallace
7. Nigel Carr/Neil McMillan
8. Ken Goodall/David Pollock
9. Colin Patterson/John Robbie
10. Ian McKinley
11. Simon Geoghegan
12. Nevin Spence/ Kyle Tonetti
13. Barry Murphy/ Eoin O'Malley
14. Shane Horgan/ Ian Dowling
15. Jim Staples

Sorry about being Ulster-centric, but I suppose they're the ones off the top of my head!

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