Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

GeordieFalcon wrote:What about the likes of Worcester full back Pennell getting a game v the Baa Baas?

Will some of the NZ touring party be given a later flight to run out v the Baa Baas?? or will it be a completely non touring England second string.

1 Waller
2 Gray / Buchanan if fit
3 Will Collier
4 Elliotte Stooke
5 Dom Barrow
6 Mark Wilson
7 Dave Seymour
8 Dickinson

9 Robson / Spencer / Wigglesworth
10 Myler
11 Banahan / Strettle
12 Joel Tomkins
13 Joseph
14 Benjamin
15 Pennell

Collier is still injured

Collier still injured...who else is there then.

Cole is probably out.
D.Wilson and H.Thomas touring NZ
Sinkler has a great chance of going to NZ
S.Wilson not really ready to start a game like this yet.

Who else.
PDJ? I dont rate him.
Knight?

If PDJ, now 3rd choice at Quins behind a 23 year old and 21 year old , goes it will be a farce

Kieran Brookes? To be honest, there is a long list of people I hope get considered before PDJ.

I'd prefer Shaun Knight over PDJ. He's looked good when I've seen him (rarely). He will be fighting for a place next year with Afoa (which can do him a world of good or stop him getting game time depending). I'd prefer most young, decent, tightheads over PDJ.

Wilson, Thomas and Sinckler is a pretty good shout really. Possible Knight if we want to take a 4th

How could i forget about Keiron...  

I would start him.

Tomkins is also still injured GF. Plus i'd rather not see him at 12!

More likely young Sam Hill will play at 12, who's another excellent prospect.

Yeah ill give you Sam Hill...thats a possible for the Baa Baas game.

Ok then how about:

1 Alex Waller (If he doesnt travel to NZ)
2 Jamie George
3 Shaun Knight
4 Elliott Stooke
5 Dom Barrow
6 Mark Wilson
7 Dave Seymour
8 Sam Dickinson

9 Wigglesworth
10 Myler / Slade
11 Strettle
12 Sam Hill
13 Jonathan Joseph
14 Benjamin
15 Pennell

Geordiefalcon surprised you don't want Daly at 13.

Jackson Wray would be my choice at 6. He's been an important part of the Saracens backrow effort in the AP with 15 starts + 5 as sub. He's almost gone under the radar.

Daly will be going to NZ though!

To be honest Beshocked watcing our game v Wasps on Saturday Daly needs to work on his defence at 13. We went through his channel at will...and we're hardly the best offensive side in the league this season.

We have a number of "under the rader players". Wray has played very well. Mark Wilson is one of the few bright lights for us this season. Has been Mr Consistency for several seasons now.

Id be happy with either.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Daly will be going to NZ though!

He was one of my certs...but im not so sure now.

I think he nailed on as he would be a great option off the bench initially. Think Lancaster will want to take a few players of potential on tour if not just to see how they train and link with better players and the coaching staff.

I think the thing with Lancaster is he expects some form of defensive ability in there aswell.

On the weekends evidence Daly wont make the tour. Mark my words.

Centres will be:
Burrell, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Barritt...plus 1 other i suspect.

Well I didn't see this weekend's games but I'd be very surprised if he wasn't included based on how good he is in general. I'd just like a further option at 13 who offers something completely different to those in the squad already. Daly could well be that man but yes others are better in defence.

Well it will certainly be interesting to see 7.

He was one of my certainties to go...but maybe my mind has been swayed just a little.

I would rather pick centres on what they do offensively...but alas defence is a big aspect of their game. Lancaster obviously likes his big bludgeoning lads in there rather than small rapiers.

His tactics are changing though and we're hopefully seeing more of an influence by Catt, or trust in the players to implement a more offensive game plan. Even if he'd like solidity to start with, Daly as an option off the bench would be great to have.

Geordiefalcon the problem Daly has is that Burrell and Tuilagi are both proven attacking threats at international level plus neither has been a liability in defence.

It's just not bludgeoning Lancaster likes - he likes the reliability.

Obviously defence means a lot to Lancaster hence sticking with the likes of Farrell and Barritt for so long. Dropping Ashton - calling up Nowell (a full back who is limited in the try scoring department but a superior defender).

Cipriani might get a recall now that his defence is better.

Ashton was a little different seeing as he wasn't scoring either, I'd still say Barritt is the superior defender than Twelvetrees. It's about options and Daly is potentially a great one. Ideal opportunity to test him out.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon the problem Daly has is that Burrell and Tuilagi are both proven attacking threats at international level plus neither has been a liability in defence.

It's just not bludgeoning Lancaster likes - he likes the reliability.

Obviously defence means a lot to Lancaster hence sticking with the likes of Farrell and Barritt for so long. Dropping Ashton - calling up Nowell (a full back who is limited in the try scoring department but a superior defender).

Cipriani might get a recall now that his defence is better.

  im glad you got your little bit in there about Nowell   

Your right about the current centres...and i have no issue with them. They showed good attacking ability this 6n and it will be interesting to see how they go against the AB's.

Ive always liked what Daly offers in attack and i think theres always a place for that in our team..be it him or someone like Cristian Wade on the wing....players with that bit of magic to make things happen.

I have a feeling it will come down to Daly v Eastmond for the final spot. IF they take 5 centres and not just 4.

Daly offers another kicking option as well if Ford's aim goes.

Thats true he does.

Is Daly a superior goal kicker to Twelvetrees and Goode?

Daly might add spark but does he add reliability?

He didn't shine for the Saxons did he?

Not convinced by Daly just yet.

Who would you take as the 5th centre if the elect to take 5 Beshocked?

I probably wouldn't take 5 centres.

I see 4 clear options - Burrell,Tuilagi,Twelvetrees and Barritt.

None of the other candidates have really put their hands up in my opinion.

Daly's chances have also been hurt by not playing at 13 for much of the season.

I feel that the Bath centres have not sparkled enough to warrant a call up. Auditions vs the likes of Sale,Saracens and Saints have seen them struggle.

Daly isn't a better option than either Twelvetrees or Goode kicking wise but if he's used I think he would be partnering a Tuilagi, Barritt or Burrell rather than 36 (just offers better balance to me) and don't think Goode will be in the starting 15. I'm going to stick my neck out and say he'll be very good for England should he be given the chance.

beshocked wrote:Is Daly a superior goal kicker to Twelvetrees and Goode?

Daly might add spark but does he add reliability?

He didn't shine for the Saxons did he?

Not convinced by Daly just yet.

Nobody shone in the Saxons...

I thought George Kruis was the pick of the bunch in the Saxons but I would.  

beshocked wrote:I thought George Kruis was the pick of the bunch in the Saxons but I would.  

Ah Scott Wilson gave him the platform to perform    

beshocked wrote:I thought George Kruis was the pick of the bunch in the Saxons but I would.  

Kruis was excellent in both the Saxons games actually and was the stand-out performer. Sam Dickinson was the only other notable performer in the forwards. None of the backs looked anything like it bar Robson. Callum Clark and Wallace were anonymous.

Any word on 36's ankle yet?

I've not seen anything about it. Could be an awkward one if 36 is injured and we see a likely Saints v Sarries final.

That leaves us with few choices at 12 for the first Test. If Anthony Allen is back fit then i'd suggest him. Otherwise? Tuilagi at 12 and Joseph at 13?

Selection via last man standing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2622207/Billy-Twelvetrees-likely-miss-Englands-opening-Test-New-Zealand-injury.html

Feel dirty posting a Daily Mail link but there you go.

Wash your keyboard off young man!

There we have it then. Step forward Matt Banahan.

Well Croft is close to coming back. I wonder if they could convert him from wing to center...

How about putting one of the stars of the 6n (for England) out of position, in to his right position at 12. Mr Burrell...and Tuilagi.

Now thats a big, powerful midfield!!

Farrell
Burrell
Tuilagi

With Ashton running lines off their shoulders....and Yarde on the other wing.

Lacking a little subtlety, passing and more pressure on Farrell and his kicking. Should be tried though although probably wouldn't be available for the 1st test.

Cips
Burrell
Tuilagi

Could be fun - Still an issue with needing a back up kicker though.

Yeah first test is going to be an issue if its a Sarries v Saints final.
That rules out Farrell and Burrell. I thought the 1st test would be a chance to see Twelvetrees and Tuilagi together. But if Twelvetrees is out...we're a bit stuck.

Dont think many of the rest have been putting their hand up particularly.

Eastmond?
Daly?
Joseph?
Allen?
Sam Hill? YOung and inexperienced.

Tuilagi to 12 and bring Daly in for me. Only seen Joseph once recently and he was ok but dosn't offer as much. Tuilagi could work at 12.

Does help to highlight how important twelvetrees is to us right now

He's a good player but it wasn't long ago people were criticising him as he took a while to settle. There was an almost desperation before that as went through the mire of failed partnerships. That's why I'm a little less than enthusiastic about Burrell and Tuilagi partnership as although you could say they are the best 2 midfielders but I doubt they make our top 3 partnerships.

Without 36 a bit of spark is needed from either Eastmond or Daly for me.

The other issue to consider barring the unavailability of Saints/Sarries players will be at FH. If George Ford, or even Cipriani is starting is they're likely to need a heavyweight 12 outside him? Austin Healy certainly thinks so and I think he has a point.

Thus moving Tuilagi to 12 and playing either Eastmond/Daly/Joseph at 13 might well be the answer in T1. That is fraught with it's own problems though. It changes a lot of the way we've been playing for the past few games. It might play into Ashton's hands more though?

1st test team: (Allowing for injury rumours) and a Saints v Sarries Final

1 Marler
2 Ward
3 D.Wilson
4 Launchbury
5 Attwood
6 Garvey
7 Robshaw
8 Ben Morgan

9 Care
10 (Ford / Cipriani / Burns (Take your pick))
11 Yarde
12 Tuilagi
13 (Eastmond / Joseph / Daly)
14 May
15 Brown

10 and centres the real problem area for me.

We're talking about this side going out in a Test match against New Zealand. A tough ask just got a lot tougher.

The question at 12 is very tough. Having thought about it though, with 36 out and bearing in mind the starting FH is going to need some support my choice at IC would be Allen. He could form a club partnership with Tuilagi, is a good solid defender and doesn't go for the maverick pass. He'd also offer more distribution from 12 which is the way Lancs seems to be wanting to go.

Alternatively you could go 10. G Ford 12. F Burns.

This would be my team allowing for injury and the likely final.

1. J Marler
2. D Ward
3. D Wilson
4. J Launchbury
5. D Attwood
6. J Haskell
7. C Robshaw
8. B Morgan
9. D Care
10. G Ford
11. J May
12. A Allen
13. M Tuilagi
14. M Yarde
15. M Brown

16. J George 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas 19. E Slater 20. C Fearns 21. B Youngs 22. D Cipriani 23. K Eastmond

Don't forget that Brown is also a very useful reserve kicker in the Daly mode i.e. from a long way out. He has a monster boot.

Chjw, Haskell is nowhere near the form of old and would be lucky to make the squad. I would have thought Gibson is well ahead of him at the moment, depending on the play offs, either Wood, Gibson or Wray will be available

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Don't forget that Brown is also a very useful reserve kicker in the Daly mode i.e. from a long way out. He has a monster boot.

Chjw, Haskell is nowhere near the form of old and would be lucky to make the squad. I would have thought Gibson is well ahead of him at the moment, depending on the play offs, either Wood, Gibson or Wray will be available

I thought Haskell actually went very well in the Twickenham game against Glaws. I would agree that he may not seem in sparkling form for Wasps but he has rarely looked in unstoppable form at club level. At international level however, he's always proved very competent.

It's for that reason that i'd have him starting. Bear in mind we're talking about a first Test away in New Zealand. I completely agree that Gibson has gone well and almost under the radar for Tigers and Wray likewise for Saracens but I wouldn't want either starting a debut Test away in NZ, where the backrow are going to have to put in a monumental shift against the likes of Messam/McCaw/Read and possibly Kaino back to form and on the bench.

Hask has been there and done it. He's also played against NZ several times. Further, he offers that high-workrate Woodshaw style that some of the other options do not. Fearns has some real quality about him likewise Garvey but neither can match the work rate of Woodshaw. Hask can. That's the reasons for my selection anyway. Another option might be 6. C Robshaw 7. M Kvesic.