Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

First topic message reminder :

NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

I'm forgetting we'll probably have Tom Youngs available at hooker.

Anyway it's clear in the first test we're going to see how our depth is in a few positions.

Chjw131 wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Don't forget that Brown is also a very useful reserve kicker in the Daly mode i.e. from a long way out. He has a monster boot.

Chjw, Haskell is nowhere near the form of old and would be lucky to make the squad. I would have thought Gibson is well ahead of him at the moment, depending on the play offs, either Wood, Gibson or Wray will be available

I thought Haskell actually went very well in the Twickenham game against Glaws. I would agree that he may not seem in sparkling form for Wasps but he has rarely looked in unstoppable form at club level. At international level however, he's always proved very competent.

It's for that reason that i'd have him starting. Bear in mind we're talking about a first Test away in New Zealand. I completely agree that Gibson has gone well and almost under the radar for Tigers and Wray likewise for Saracens but I wouldn't want either starting a debut Test away in NZ, where the backrow are going to have to put in a monumental shift against the likes of Messam/McCaw/Read and possibly Kaino back to form and on the bench.

Hask has been there and done it. He's also played against NZ several times. Further, he offers that high-workrate Woodshaw style that some of the other options do not. Fearns has some real quality about him likewise Garvey but neither can match the work rate of Woodshaw. Hask can. That's the reasons for my selection anyway. Another option might be 6. C Robshaw 7. M Kvesic.

I saw the Glaws game, scored a couple of tries and put himself about a bit, but he tackling is soft these days, against NZ I feel that this will allow them the front foot. I would much prefer a Garvey type, he also has the work rate and punches a lot harder.

Having said that the way Saints are struggling to get their full game together at the moment, we will probably have Wood anyway.

Saracens Tigers final for me. Saints have looked tired and lacking focus without Hartley.

Fingers crossed for Webber as this is his big chance.

Tom Youngs won't travel due his wife being ill - thats a little worrying as i think she only recently gave birth.

He also confirmed Corbisiero, Croft, Nowell and Wade will not tour

Source: RFU

Without wishing to be pessimistic, we'll be doing well to keep NZ to less than a 20 point win in T1.

The RFU and AP officials should have got their heads together and brought the AP final by a wwek by scheduling a round of games during the fallow weekends during the AIs or 6N.

Sure, teams affected by having a number of players in the squad would complain, but the success of the international team comes first for me. That's how you get people interested in the game in England.

As a Wasps fan, Daly has landed some monster penalties over the last 2 seasons. But he has had some really poor moments in defence and kicking from hand.

If Wasps get past Stade then lets see how he goes in the new Euro comp.

Lancaster has stated he will take 12 front rows and 4 scrum halfs in the squad. With Cole still injured plus Corb and T Youngs confirmed not touring that leaves plenty of opportunity for the youngsters.

LH - Marler, Mako, Mullan + Waller?

Hooker - Hartely and Webber if fit. Plus any combination of Ward, George, Paice (meh), Lindsay? Will Gray or Buchanan be fit?

TH - Wilson, Thomas + 2 of Sinckler, Wilson, Brookes, Doran-Jones (meh)

Whatever front row is eventually fielded against the Barbarians could have a torrid time with Hayman and Afoa the 2 props already announced for them.

Buchanan is theoretically fit but hasn't come off the bench - I suspect he is still a bit light on conditioning.

England expects.....but could we make any harder for ourselves?

We have 12 internationals, plus maybe a couple of pre WC warm ups, to some how cement and develop our challenge to win the Webb Ellis.....

This tour comes at such a crucial time for the development of this side and yet could we have made it any harder?

The mindset of acceptable losses and performance over result will be damaging in the extreme and yet 'rock between a hard place' we are.

This tour will test Lancaster and his coaches like no other and will without doubt determine our WC credentials.

Imaginitive thinking is required, starting with taking Flood as a 12 along with Farrell, Burns, Ford and Cipriani.

Flood moves to France after this tour not before.....

I think you've answered your own question king. We are into the final straight and there are places up for grabs in the squad as a whole. Why waste some of them playing a fly half, who has never consistently impressed despite a lot of chances, at inside centre when that won't be a realistic option afterwards. Why not give someone a chance to nail down a place?

king_carlos wrote:Lancaster has stated he will take 12 front rows and 4 scrum halfs in the squad. With Cole still injured plus Corb and T Youngs confirmed not touring that leaves plenty of opportunity for the youngsters.

LH - Marler, Mako, Mullan + Waller?

Hooker - Hartely and Webber if fit. Plus any combination of Ward, George, Paice (meh), Lindsay? Will Gray or Buchanan be fit?

TH - Wilson, Thomas + 2 of Sinckler, Wilson, Brookes, Doran-Jones (meh)

Whatever front row is eventually fielded against the Barbarians could have a torrid time with Hayman and Afoa the 2 props already announced for them.

LH - Marler, Mako, Mullan, A.Waller : Happy with those options.
H- Hartley, Webber (If Fit), Ward, J.George,
TH - D.Wilson, H.Thomas, K.Brookes, Sinckler.

Saxons Front Row v Baa Baas - Leaves us very short
1 R.Vickers
2 Haywood
3 S.Knight

Probably going to have a tough afternoon.

I don't think Youngs will be missed and he may struggle to get back in the set-up really.

I'd be happy with somebody who can throw straight.

Whats the hooking options?

Hartley - No.1
Webber - How serious is his injury
Buchanan - Been injured all season...doubt he is remotely fit
Gray - See Buchanan
Ward - Playing exceptionally well.
Haywood - Hartleys back up. Is he ready for a tour to NZ?
J.George - Cracking player, used in rotation with Brits. I'd take him.
Lindsay - Never fulfilled the potential
Luke Cowan-Dickie: See Haywood, surely not ready for a tour.

Any others?

LC-D

It's got to be Ward & George as back up I reckon. Not sure Haywood is ready yet

Sorry yes LC-D...but surely in the same boat as Haywood...not ready for a tour to NZ yet.

So if Webber is injured...

Hartley, Ward, George.

I really liked the look of Buchanan last season shame hes been injured. If he'd had another good season i would have taken him.

If they believe that LC-D is the future, as many commentators seem to, then he should go

Well yes i guess it would be a great experience. Similar shouts for the likes of Scott Wilson for the same reason.

We just need to be careful...this is New Zealand...IN New Zealand. Its not like going on a tour of Canada or something.

If one of Hartley or Webber don't make it then LCD may have a shot at the 4th place. With 12 front rows being taken there will presumably be 4 places in each position.

Hartley, Webber, Gray, George

Going by EPS and Saxons at the moment that's the top 4 so if one of them doesn't make it the LCD is in a decent position to be taken for the experience given Gray and Buchanan have been injured long term.

I joked about it earlier, but LCD may be be worth a shout if we're taking four players in each front row position. He's unlikely to get a game, but it could be a valuable experience for him.

GeordieFalcon wrote:LH - Marler, Mako, Mullan, A.Waller : Happy with those options.
H- Hartley, Webber (If Fit), Ward, J.George,
TH - D.Wilson, H.Thomas, K.Brookes, Sinckler.

Saxons Front Row v Baa Baas - Leaves us very short
1 R.Vickers
2 Haywood
3 S.Knight

Probably going to have a tough afternoon.

I'd imagine the likes of Catt and even Yann Thomas will be a fair way ahead of Vickers judging by the Saxons squad. A shame Barrington will likely be involved in the final as he's a top young LH.

If Brookes and Sinckler both travel to NZ with Scott Wilson given a full pre-season then Wilson and Doran-Jones would be the likely options at TH. Either way it looks like at least one of Brookes, Sinckler and Wilson won't be in NZ. Whoever that is will likely be favourite to start against the Baa Baas with Doran-Jones on the bench.

I can't honestly see the point in including Paul Doran-Jones at all. I mean he has 'experience' but he is stuck behind a couple of (relatively speaking) kids at Quins. Is his experience of getting his ass whupped in (a massive) six caps worth this?

It seems like in every squad there is (IMO anyway) an inexplicable choice, in this case it is PDJ.

I've also read that Lancaster wants to take four scrum-halves. This strikes me as a tad excessive since we are fairly certain who the first choice players are. So who is going?

Danny Care
Ben Youngs
Lee Dickson
Richard Wigglesworth? Dan Robson? Joe Simpson?

I totally agree Cumbrian...why bother taking Doran JOnes. Quins fans dont rate him for their club let alone for the England set up.

Carlos, Yes Catt may well get a shout, he's improved alot this season.

Vickers has been great this season converting to LH from hooker. Even i have to hold my hand up at that, after criticising him hugely early in the season. Never will make the seniors but for a game like this he is a good scrummager, good around the pitch etc. Probably will be the falcons player of the season.

Cumbrian wrote:I've also read that Lancaster wants to take four scrum-halves.  This strikes me as a tad excessive since we are fairly certain  who the first choice players are. So who is going?

Danny Care
Ben Youngs
Lee Dickson
Richard Wigglesworth? Dan Robson? Joe Simpson?

I dont mind this Cumbrian.

The reasons being...i dont think we have any idea what kind of options we genuinely have if Care was to get injured.

Youngs - At times brilliant, at times schooolboyish, seems to be a little injury prone aswell.
Dickson - A good solid SH, but nothing outstanding.
Wigglesworth - Not a fans favorite but Id take him. Offers the basics for a good scrum half. Passing etc.
Simpson - Does not inspire me with SH skills. He has pace, nothing more.
Robson - Heard great things...i'd take him for the experience.

Who else is there?

At the moment:
Care, Youngs, Wigglesworth, Robson

So with Webber highly likely to be out, Tom Youngs confirmed out and Hartley not having appeared anywhere as yet we're struggling in the hooking dept. Paice is also out injured I believe. Joe Gray is out injured.

Corbisiero and Croft will also not tour.

This being the case who on earth is going to be starting their first senior Test away in New Zealand and who's trusted to do that and not stuff up?

For my money and on form and experience so far i'd go for Ward. He's looked strong on the floor and in contact despite his size. He carries in the style of Tom Youngs as well.

FR for a first Test of 1. J Marler 2. D Ward 3. D Wilson would be my choice. Bench: 16. J George 17. M Mullan 18. H Thomas - that's about as best as we can manage I think.

Fair enough marra, I suppose I can see the justification for it.

We're well blessed for no. 9s at the moment. Youngs is where Care was about two years ago (they seem to have remarkably similar career trajectories). Care burst onto the scene at a young age and attained messiah status, he tried a few things that didn't work out, became perceived as being greedy/ having flaws in his game and went off the boil. He went away worked on his game and is now clearly first choice. Youngs has a few issues in his game, but I honestly believe that he'll come good again.

Hookers, we look to be fecked! Hartley to tour if available, Webber looks to be out, Ward is nailed on at this stage so I'd take.

Hartley, Ward, George and Luke Cowan-Dickie.

How does this happen to all the hookers at the same time??

Marra, I hope youngs does come good...he's shown in games that he is brilliant...just needs consistency and a good run of being injury free. After those two though....well WHAT is there? Wigglesworth plays well for the dominant team in the league...but then its bare.

Its ironic that Ward has taken this season by storm, as had Gray and Buchanan not both been injured for most of the season he would nto even have played much. Certainly Buchanan looks the real deal.

Having said that Ward has taken his spot by playing some cracking stuff. He is a converted openside flanker...so is very strong on the ground...and we know how much Lancaster expects that skill in your armoury...so i think Ward is a guarenteed tourer.

Is Hartley out aswell?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Marra, I hope youngs does come good...he's shown in games that he is brilliant...just needs consistency and a good run of being injury free. After those two though....well WHAT is there? Wigglesworth plays well for the dominant team in the league...but then its bare.

Its ironic that Ward has taken this season by storm, as had Gray and Buchanan not both been injured for most of the season he would nto even have played much. Certainly Buchanan looks the real deal.

Having said that Ward has taken his spot by playing some cracking stuff. He is a converted openside flanker...so is very strong on the ground...and we know how much Lancaster expects that skill in your armoury...so i think Ward is a guarenteed tourer.

Is Hartley out aswell?

Good question, I think that we have players that can 'do a job' like Dickinson. He will probably never completely excel and make anybody think 'Wow, what a player', but he will rarely let us down. The same could be said about Wigglesworth. You'd probably argue that if we want to be the best in the world, that isn't good enough.

After that we're probably into the young players. Robson is a player I like (now), when he played for the U20s I thought he was a greedy so-and-so with limited skills and a good turn of pace (found myself comparing him to a limited version of Joe Simpson). However, he's been a revelation this season, he really seems to get the game moving. Don't know if he is ready for the step up and I'm not sure if he is too similar to Care and Youngs.

Aside from that you've got players we've already mentioned and a few promising players in the age grades. So I suppose if we have an injury crisis we'll be a bit stuck. Would like to see Robson get a chance on tour.

little_badger wrote:Hookers, we look to be fecked! Hartley to tour if available, Webber looks to be out, Ward is nailed on at this stage so I'd take.

Hartley, Ward, George and Luke Cowan-Dickie.

How does this happen to all the hookers at the same time??

As an England fan, you should be used to this! A few years ago it was the props, during the Six Nations it was the centres and outside backs, now it is the hookers. We can't have an equal spread of injuries that the squad can absorb, we've got to be decimated in one single position.

I suppose the positive thing is that we've always got by.

Marler and Vunipola have come through strongly through that. Add in Alex Waller.

Hopefully after Cole and Davy Wilson, we will find the likes of Sinkler, Scott Wilson and Brookes showing we have serious depth.

If we travel without Hartley, Webber and Youngs (which just sounds ludicrous) then Ward, Jamie George etc will be dropped in to the sh&t and told sink or swim.

The thing is based on Wards performances this season and Georges...i actually think they could surprise us. Ward is a real ground hog. A former 7, so our breakdown work will be fine. George is a much bigger unit...i think he'll take the Sarries spot next season. This trip could turn him into a real player.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I suppose the positive thing is that we've always got by.

Marler and Vunipola have come through strongly through that. Add in Alex Waller.

Hopefully after Cole and Davy Wilson, we will find the likes of Sinkler, Scott Wilson and Brookes showing we have serious depth.

If we travel without Hartley, Webber and Youngs (which just sounds ludicrous) then Ward, Jamie George etc will be dropped in to the sh&t and told sink or swim.

The thing is based on Wards performances this season and Georges...i actually think they could surprise us. Ward is a real ground hog. A former 7, so our breakdown work will be fine. George is a much bigger unit...i think he'll take the Sarries spot next season. This trip could turn him into a real player.

Well Mako and in particular Marler are looking better and better all the time, but it has taken time for them to get established. It is important for fringe guys to get experience on a trip like this but we just should not expect much of them yet. I just hope we wont be depending on inexperienced forwards come the RWC

Well thats the thing LIW.

Dont forget quite a few of the players like Ward who have been excellent wont become a fixture in the squad. Certainly when Ward has the likes of a fit and flying Buchanan challenging him.

The problem we have for this tour is the premiership final "clashing" with the first test.

Had that not been an issue we wouldnt have some many inexperienced guys going on the trip.

Of course it also depends who actually makes the final.

It did appear to be Saints v Sarries guarenteed...howver Saints are dragging their heals and the Tigers yet again are on the charge at the right time.

A Sarries v Tigers final would changes the available options completely.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's got to be Ward & George as back up I reckon. Not sure Haywood is ready yet

can ward throw straight though?

Can any hooker throw straight these days?

Twelvetrees is out for at least 4 weeks it appears. So bang goes the first test for him!

You know what? Looking at the names that have been chucked about, this first test is one of the best things that could have happened to England.

16 months from the RWC, Lancaster gets to try some new players in a game that is essentially a free pass. No-one expects us to win, but we get to see if some players have got what it takes in one of the most challenging environments imaginable.

OK, ideally we'd have been able to do this over several games and in a less high pressure scenario, but the squad needs a bit more depth and it's not often that you get a game where a coach is forced to try new things. If even one or two of those players make the final RWC squad, this will have been worthwhile.

This team is getting more and more alarming by the minute!!

The first test is going to be the most inexperienced we've probably ever put out....and it happens to be playing New Zealand IN New Zealand....  

GeordieFalcon wrote:Can any hooker throw straight these days?

The demise of the hooker in the modern game is one of the sadder aspects of RU. They can’t throw straight, they are having to (re)learn how to hook, and some of them are so tiny their feet can’t reach the ground when they swing between their modern-day props. They used to rejoice in being one of the most specialized positions on the pitch. Now they are either extra backrowers, there for mobility only, or props who bolster the front-row. There are even some examples of converted three-quarters – I know, how bizarre! Gone are the days when you were forced into the position aged 11, and stayed there for the rest of your playing career because you were the only one who could do the job.

I'm surprised Stewie hasn’t seen it as a way of getting both Manu and Burrell on the pitch at the same time.

So for the first test we are potentially with out:

Definates:
Twelvetrees, Corbs, Webber, Wade, Croft, Nowell, T.Youngs

Then add on:
Sarries v Saints FInal:
Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Wigglesworth, Kruis, Goode, Billy V, Mako V
Lawes, Wood, Burrell, Foden, Dickson, Hartley, A.Waller,

or
Sarries v Leicester
Farrell, Barritt, Ashton, Wigglesworth, Kruis, Goode, Billy V, Mako V
Manu, Slater, Kitchener, Allen?, Tait?,

or
Leicester v Saints
Lawes, Wood, Burrell, Foden, Dickson, Hartley, A.Waller,
Manu, Slater, Kitchener, Allen?, Tait?,

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's got to be Ward & George as back up I reckon. Not sure Haywood is ready yet

can ward throw straight though?

He's not great either tbh, ex openside I think???

I just want a solid option on the bench to back-up Hartley who isn't going to go to pieces at the lineout, is that too much to ask??

Poorfour wrote:You know what? Looking at the names that have been chucked about, this first test is one of the best things that could have happened to England..

Well, it's happened too England on a few occasions in the past on tour and we've said the same thing. The trouble is, I can't recall when one of these great opportunities has ended up as anything other than a disappointment.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Poorfour wrote:You know what? Looking at the names that have been chucked about, this first test is one of the best things that could have happened to England..

Well, it's happened too England on a few occasions in the past on tour and we've said the same thing. The trouble is, I can't recall when one of these great opportunities has ended up as anything other than a disappointment.

1998   

1998...aaahhhhhhhh yes.

My favourite is the 2007 tour of South Africa. Bath, Wasps and Leicester players couldn't make the tour at all. Perry Freshwater was tied up in France, while these players were all out injured: Mike Catt, Mark Cueto, James Forrester, Charlie Hodgson, Olly Morgan, Andrew Sheridan, Mike Tindall and Dan Ward-Smith

Here was our touring party:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/may/news-articles/englandsquadforsummer2007tourtosouthafrica

On top of that, the squad caught a bug. Not the kind which lets you play at full strength and then blame when you lose, it was the kind which sent players home without ever taking the pitch (Strettle).

We're not quite at 'Tour of Hell' levels yet.  We can still make up a fairly strong team out of the players in the EPS Saxons from teams outside of the top 4.

01. Joe Marler
02. Dave Ward
03. Henry Thomas
04. Elliott Stooke
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Chris Robshaw
07. Matt Kvesic
08. Ben Morgan

09. Danny Care
10. Freddie Burns

11. Jonny May
12. AN Other
13. Elliott Daly
14. Marland Yarde
15. Mike Brown

Plus we'd definitely have players from at least 2 of the top 4 teams anyway.

I'm under no illusion that it would win a game,  but I doubt it would get a record humping.

Thats not far off the team that'll be starting the first test   

Rugby Fan wrote:My favourite is the 2007 tour of South Africa. Bath, Wasps and Leicester players couldn't make the tour at all. Perry Freshwater was tied up in France, while these players were all out injured: Mike Catt, Mark Cueto, James Forrester, Charlie Hodgson, Olly Morgan, Andrew Sheridan, Mike Tindall and Dan Ward-Smith

Here was our touring party:

http://www.rfu.com/news/2007/may/news-articles/englandsquadforsummer2007tourtosouthafrica

On top of that, the squad caught a bug. Not the kind which lets you play at full strength and then blame when you lose, it was the kind which sent players home without ever taking the pitch (Strettle).

Mike Brown played two tests, despite spending the intervening week in hospital.

That's what I mean, if you look at it from the point of view that the favourites are going to win their games, we'll have players from Leicester and Bath available.  That means we could put out a team

01. Joe Marler
02. Dave Ward
03. David Wilson
04. Dave Attwood
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Chris Robshaw
07. Matt Kvesic
08. Ben Morgan

09. Danny Care
10. George Ford

11. Jonny May
12. Kyle Eastmond
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Marland Yarde
15. Mike Brown

In short, it might not be as bad as people are fearing.

But i have a sneaky feeling it might be Sarries v Tigers
Which would mean:

1 Joe Marler
2 Dylan Hartley
3 David Wilson
4 Courtney Lawes
5 Joe Launchbury
6 Tom Wood
7 Chris Robshaw
8 Ben Morgan

9 Danny Care
10 Ford / Cipriani / Burns

11 Johnny May
12 Leroy Burrell
13 Elliott Daly?
14 Marland Yarde
15 Mike Brown