Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

Didn't do anything for me Lost.

Allen along with jth was around the squad for quite a while before twelvetrees was selected and came up a bit short.no point taking him as Barrett and Burrell will be available for the 2nd test.regarding eastmonds attitude I think he is just a bit frustrated due to lack of oppurtunities

I think Allen is an excellent 12. He can attack, defends brilliantly.

He may well be a stop gap, but for me he's like a Fraser Waters type of player...very under rated.

He probably would be a stop gap, but with so many out i dont see that as an issue...although it looks like Twelvetrees might be back. How fit will he be is the question?

Allen v Eastmond for the 12 spot in the 1st test of a summer tour to NZ...

Big game for either.

I agree Geordie to an extent. Allen is an excellent AP 12. What I'd also throw in there is who is more likely to add to the WC squad next year?

I agree, I think Allen is a very good 12. He's been unfortunate this season with injuries (again), but when he has played he's looked great. He combines with Tuilagi excellently, and his defence despite his stature, is top notch. I'd prefer Allen over Barritt it has to be said.

Eastmond has been playing for Bath GF, but I think he's on some sort of rotation with other squad players. By all accounts, he's had a good season.

I didnt realise Eastmond had been playing.

In that Case he is the more likely to remain in the squad for the WC...and actually is that creative player that i would like to see at 12. If its not Twelvetrees.

Likewise i want to see Daly in the squad...but i was concerned about Daly when we played Wasps. He didnt look comfortable at all defensively. And whilst i want my players to be great attack wise...it is essential that they are able to show up defensively when required.

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Likewise i want to see Daly in the squad...but i was concerned about Daly when we played Wasps. He didnt look comfortable at all defensively. And whilst i want my players to be great attack wise...it is essential that they are able to show up defensively when required.

That was the case against Stade as well Geordie, he looked lost at 13 in defense, rushed out of the line and fell off tackles. In attack he only had one plan, an outside break, which didn't work and he couldn't seem to come up with anything else.

Another half season at 13 will do him a lot of good but on that show this tour is too early for him at centre, perhaps wing though but will he still be a liability against guys like Savea???

I've been unimpressed with Daly tbh.

He's a good footballer and has a good outside break but he's a long long way from an International 13, especially in defence. He seems very slight although Wasps have him down as close to 15st???

He needs another year or 2 at Wasps to settle in the position.

Allen's shown he's not up to international level? Was that when he was capped at 20 under master tactician Andy Robinson? With Jamie Noon as a centre partnership? AND Noon managed to get 3 tries against New Zealand (one 'unfairly' not given), helped by his centre partner?

Yup. Good club player though. Thought Daly was good against Stade as well. I'm clearly in a minority here!

Re Daly, do they take him so Faz can sort out his defence (which was poor against stade)? He is a classy player just not quite ready, in fairness 13 is tricky defence wise, perhaps all the more reason to get him in camp and play against the Baa Baas giving him the goal to put in a good shift.

He'll get there soon I have no doubt.

Was he that much at fault vs Stade? Thought Healy picked up it wasn't him making the mistakes? Are people really wanting Allen in there, or expecting it?

Its a shame that George Lowe isnt fit. This might have been his perfect oppertunity. He's a player i rate highly.

Anyway it might not matter if Twelvetrees is fit. It'll be him and Manu in the centres.
But we need a bench option...thats where the dilema is with Barritt and Burrell unavailable.

Another half season at 13 will do him a lot of good but on that show this tour is too early for him at centre, perhaps wing though but will he still be a liability against guys like Savea???.

Yappy i wouldnt move him to wing. Yarde will start the first test and gives us that dynamic, power and pace option. Id still go with May on the other side. He looks slight but he's actually a powerful kid.

He was derided a bit for his cutting inside and headless chicken running. Thats his game though. He cuts inside and looks for the gaps.
He just needs Mike Catt to get hold of him and give him a bit of direction...and to back his pace in the open which he didnt do a few times in the 6n.
11 Yarde, 14 May, 15 Brown could be a very interesting combo for the first test.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I've been unimpressed with Daly tbh.

He's a good footballer and has a good outside break but he's a long long way from an International 13, especially in defence. He seems very slight although Wasps have him down as close to 15st???

He needs another year or 2 at Wasps to settle in the position.

Absolute rubbish. Rugby, like all contact sports, exaggerates player's physical stats. It gives them a psychological advantage, especially when commentators compare the scrum weights and things like that.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its a shame that George Lowe isnt fit. This might have been his perfect oppertunity. He's a player i rate highly.

Anyway it might not matter if Twelvetrees is fit. It'll be him and Manu in the centres.
But we need a bench option...thats where the dilema is with Barritt and Burrell unavailable.

Another half season at 13 will do him a lot of good but on that show this tour is too early for him at centre, perhaps wing though but will he still be a liability against guys like Savea???.

Yappy i wouldnt move him to wing. Yarde will start the first test and gives us that dynamic, power and pace option. Id still go with May on the other side. He looks slight but he's actually a powerful kid.

He was derided a bit for his cutting inside and headless chicken running. Thats his game though. He cuts inside and looks for the gaps.
He just needs Mike Catt to get hold of him and give him a bit of direction...and to back his pace in the open which he didnt do a few times in the 6n.
11 Yarde, 14 May, 15 Brown could be a very interesting combo for the first test.

Agree with this too GF. Can any quins fans provide some insight into Lowe's status/injury update? Talented player no doubt, but he can't seem to string a full season together. I remember him getting injured on England Tour in SA 2012 and he was superb up until that. Such a shame.

I believe he had a major neck injury Eddie...and its career threatening. Yappy or CJ can confirm.

Lowe has confirmed recently that the injury is on the mend and he is targeting an October return. He will have lost an entire year, which is a real shame because his form at the start of last season was excellent.

It's probably too late for him to be part of 2015, and in any case his size and style probably don't suit what England are doing with Tuilagi and Burrell at 13. A shame on both counts, because for my money he's a very rounded player with underrated pace (he beat Varndell in a footrace last season) and a very low error count.

Poorfour wrote:Lowe has confirmed recently that the injury is on the mend and he is targeting an October return. He will have lost an entire year, which is a real shame because his form at the start of last season was excellent.

It's probably too late for him to be part of 2015, and in any case his size and style probably don't suit what England are doing with Tuilagi and Burrell at 13. A shame on both counts, because for my money he's a very rounded player with underrated pace (he beat Varndell in a footrace last season) and a very low error count.

Cheers Poorfour.

Good to know he's on the mend. I like his style of play too. He's got an aggressive, no-nonsense style which I like in a centre. Like Noon, just a lot better!

A year is a long, long time out of rugby. If he can return in October and find his previous form by Christmas, we never know what might happen. I remember was it last season that him and JTH were on fire for Quins?

More likely the season before - Lowe picked up a bad ankle injury on the England summer tour in 2012 and only really hit peak form at the end of 2012-13 and before his injury in 2013-14.

Likewise, JTH tends to struggle for confidence when coming back from injury. I think he's getting there now, but the negative element among Quins fans have long ago written him off.

Yeh I think you're right, it probably was 2011-2012.

Have to admit i'm not a JTH fan. He does a job at AP level, but I think he's out of his depth on the international stage. I've seen smaller players who make more physical impact

George Ford to miss the tour. Desperately unlucky for the lad, he could have put in a real good showing in the first Test

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10846402/England-suffer-fresh-blow-before-New-Zealand-tour-with-George-Ford-ruled-out-through-injury.html

Cipriani to make his return by the looks of it!

BamBam wrote:George Ford to miss the tour. Desperately unlucky for the lad, he could have put in a real good showing in the first Test

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10846402/England-suffer-fresh-blow-before-New-Zealand-tour-with-George-Ford-ruled-out-through-injury.html

Cipriani to make his return by the looks of it!

OH FOR GOODNESS SAKE. This is ridiculous.

Cips and Burns to battle it out for the bench fly half spot?

Terribly unlucky for Ford. He had a stellar season and I was starting to think that with this tour under his belt, he could really vie for the fly half position with Farrell.

Well this could complete the rehabilitation of Cipriani couldn't it. Gutted for Ford.

So Cipriani to start the first test in NZ.

Whos on the bench...Burns?   

2nd and 3rd test...Farrell starts with Cips on the bench.

Lets hope we see the new mature Cipriani showing what he should have years ago.

Think it's time to stop these full test summer tours: too many games and too many injuries. Players need time off for R&R, pre-season, and to lengthen their own careers. Or as it so often turns out: surgery!

Maybe use the time for some Saxon/A-side games, or BaaBaas, or summer 7s...?

Well maybe cut them down from every year.

Maybe this would open the oppertunities for A games v the 2nd and 3rd tier sides like Georgia, Russia, Germany etc or some form of European championship.

But thats for another debate.

This 1st side is going to be VERY inexperienced. Though they do have some talented players. I just hope they show their ability and dont get blown away like rabbits in the headlights.

Might be a blessing in disguise for Ford.

Don't get me wrong the guy has the potential to kick on and be a great player for both England and Bath but IMHO he isn't ready just yet, but the experience would have been great for him.

Down to Cips then in the 1st test.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Think it's time to stop these full test summer tours: too many games and too many injuries. Players need time off for R&R, pre-season, and to lengthen their own careers. Or as it so often turns out: surgery!

Maybe use the time for some Saxon/A-side games, or BaaBaas, or summer 7s...?

Politically we cant drop these games. It does seem that we might need to find an acceptable way of reducing the number of games that the international players play still further. I doubt there is any way of managing the situation without annoying someone.

Oh dear.

It's starting to look a bit silly now. Cipriani to start his first Test in six years does not flood me with confidence at all. His tackling is better but he doesn't challenge the line directly as Ford does, he's a crabber. With Care/Youngs at 9 I don't see that working too well.

Burns is a long way down on confidence which is irritating because on the form of last year he could've used this opportunity to seize a starting place. It's a choice between two FHs who could put in a top performance or one that could spell the end of their international careers.

That's before we've started on the hooker issues.

I don't think Andy Goode has officially retired from international rugby...

Is this perhaps becoming the exceptional circumstance when you ask Toby Flood to come along for training and maybe sit on the bench in NZ?

Ah hooker im actually ok with CHJ.

I think we have some decent players even at 4/5/6th choice. Its FH thats a critical position and a concern for me.

Rugby Fan wrote:I don't think Andy Goode has officially retired from international rugby...

Is this perhaps becoming the exceptional circumstance when you ask Toby Flood to come along for training and maybe sit on the bench in NZ?

seriously?

You would prefer Andy Goode to Danny Cipriani?

At some point you're going to have to take the plunge with a player. He's not inexperienced. He had 2 years of SR where he played against some top sides and did ok.

Think that was tongue in cheek fa0019 ...

BamBam wrote:Think that was tongue in cheek fa0019 ...

phew! sometimes I just don't know these days

Give me a break though, living in South Africa you lose track of things like irony and comical wit!

You joke but one more injury at 10 and we are down to Goode or someone like Slade who's definitely not ready.

Shane Geraghty? Been playing pretty well for LI this season.

Obviously with Ford out, Farrell and Myler unavailable we're a bit short on FH options. I think it's a real shame about Ford, as this was the perfect opportunity for him to get some much-needed international experience (particularly as a starter, something he's not done yet).

I think Cipriani has had a good consistent season for Sale, and deserves his chance. Burns is a tough one, there's no doubt he's got oodles of talent, but he's had a horrid season and I'd be very weary of throwing him in at the deep end here.

fa0019 wrote:seriously?

You would prefer Andy Goode to Danny Cipriani?

Sorry, just gallows humour, fa.

I'm currently trying to avoid thinking about the first Test by assembling an England XV from players with the name Dan/Danny or an alternative XV based on England players with the initials "DC".

Happily, Danny Care, Danny Cipriani and Dan Cole qualify for both teams (think where today's England Dan quotient would have been if Dan Ward-Smiith was still a back row contender)

I've got Dave Cusani at lock and David Cooke at flanker for the second team, but starting to struggle.

Mad for chelsea...for Wasps?

Cipriani will start. he has played well for Sale. Burns could enjoy being in the England environment again. It might revitalize him.

Dan Hipkiss & Dan Luger from the past??? For something like that you may have to wheel in the oldies.

If Cipriani starts mind you will need to have someone strong at 12. Seriously big to do the bulk of the tackling else it would be much of a contest.

Tuilagi?

fa0019 wrote:Dan Hipkiss & Dan Luger from the past??? For something like that you may have to wheel in the oldies.

I had Danny Grewcock in the back of my mind too, so we already have almost half a team of England Daniels without stretching back too far.

Perhaps we can get D(e)an Richards to coach

fa0019 wrote:If Cipriani starts mind you will need to have someone strong at 12. Seriously big to do the bulk of the tackling else it would be much of a contest.

Tuilagi?

Tuliagi still bolts out of the line now and again which could be disastrous next to Cips. It might tempt Lancaster to play him alongside his Tigers team mate, Allen.

Dont forget the other thing Cipriani is an experienced player. He's played S14 or 15 rugby. He knows what to expect about intensity etc.

FA

If Twelvetrees doesnt pull through his injury it'll be Eastmond at 12. All 5'9 of him...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Mad for chelsea...for Wasps?

Cipriani will start. he has played well for Sale. Burns could enjoy being in the England environment again. It might revitalize him.

no idea what you're talking about

You could be right about Burns. Let's hope so anyway.

fa0019 wrote:If Cipriani starts mind you will need to have someone strong at 12. Seriously big to do the bulk of the tackling else it would be much of a contest.

Tuilagi?

Same problem as with Ford so I would hope there is a plan in place. Although from what has been written on this forum it would appear that the stats say he isnt the doormat of old

GeordieFalcon wrote:2nd and 3rd test...Farrell starts with Cips on the bench.

Hopefully. Farrell has 2 small low contact pre season friendly type games to play between now and then. I wonder if we can convince the Saracens management that Hodgson is the best option seeing as there is nothing significant riding on the results  .

Jokes aside that is a worry we've brushed under the doormat B91212. Looking onwards to the 2nd and 3rd test we are assuming we'll have all the Sarries and Saints players back with us and in perfect shape to go. If this happens after playing in domestic and European finals I'll eat more than my hat!

Agreed. My guess is that there are a few more players managing injuries and being patched up until the end of the season like Ford already, not withstanding new things they may pick up in the remaining games. The team for the first test may well end up being the majority of the team for all 3 tests after all.

Too much rugby.................the modern game is incredibly brutal and as is obvious to everyone, the players are the ones who are carrying the can.

I've mentioned it before and the fact is things will only change when the players take on the owners and negotiate new terms.....this will probably mean strike action.

thats all folks!

In many respects, the England coaching team is back at square one.

One of the benefits of having a settled training group is that players can step up to a familiar environment. For the first Test, and maybe further into the tour, we'll have key players in the match day squad who haven't really been part of that environment.

To compound the problem, the training group will also have a number of newish faces who won't know the drills, so they may not be as effective in helping the matchday squad get up to speed.

With injuries, stupid scheduling - what exactly is the point of the Barbarians game - and NZ as opposition I think England are going to take a step backwards. Just hope for them it is only one.