Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

Rugby Fan wrote:
As a matter of interest, other than Flood, who is off to France, and Tindall, can anyone tell me which English backs wear the captain's armband for their teams, if only occasionally?

Twelvetrees, Wilkinson, Chris Bell

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10822613/Danny-Cipriani-in-line-for-England-call-up-after-Stuart-Lancaster-asks-for-him-to-be-rested-from-Sale-Sharks-game.html

Telegraph Sport understands that Cipriani's Sale team-mate, Michael Paterson, will also be named in the provisional training squad.

The New Zealand born second-row, who is eligible for selection through an English grandparent, has been one of the finds of the season after joining Sale from Cardiff Blues last summer.

"I want to represent England at the World Cup and if I get the opportunity to be selected for the squad it would represent a huge honour for me - and I'm sure my grandfather, too, watching down from above," said Paterson in a recent interview.

  
Do we really need a foreign born second row? We've got loads of decent young locks waiting for a chance. Plenty of full time number 6's too. Don't get it at all.

Me neither. Lock not an area of weakness either. I thought we were cutting down on the grandparent approach...

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/cardiff-blues-michael-paterson-looks-2027739

Don't like the grandfather rule but if he's qualified he's qualified and should be considered same as everyone else. And part of that is commitment to the team. If he is then no problem. But he's about 29?

Lawes
Launchbury
Attwood
Slater
Parling
Kitchener
Kruis
Stooke
Barrow

Would rate the above as already better or with more potential (final two) than Paterson. Would be a strange selection certainly.

Yeah, the fact that he is getting on towards his 30s was an issue for me too. It feels a little like he's simply being parachuted in for the world cup.

Also, he's been a fantastic line-out operator for Sale (no denying that), but he hasn't really contributed much else. So you'd have to assume that he'd be going out as a lineout lock, but he'd be third choice behind Lawes and Parling. If we're going to take a third choice lock, surely it would be better to include a youngster like Dom Barrow () or Elliott Stooke? Otherwise just stick with the locks who are already in the Saxons/ EPS; Attwood, Launchbury, Lawes, Slater, Kruis, Matthews and Stooke.

Hasn't Paterson had a lot of motm awards, captained Sale when Braid was injured and is generally lauded? It wouldn't be a strange decision from a quality point of view. But he's 29, unless he's going to temporarily take starting spot, or is just considered cover while players are missing the first test, I don't really see the point.

Just going on the games I've seen he's always looked like an out and out line-out operator in the mould of Steve Borthwick. It seems a departure from the 'all action' players that Lancaster usually goes for.

Could he be going just to hand down some experience to some youngsters that might get called up?

the initial training squad, which meets up this week, will exclude any team whose season has yet to end. that does not leave many second rows left.

yappysnap wrote:Why would he try Farrell at centre? Just don't see the point when we have lots of other centre's out there.

I don't think Lancaster should, but he's played Farrell outside Hodgson before and the Saracens man played outside Ford for the juniors.

Yea but we weren't very good with that Hodgson/Farrell combo and those juniors didn't exactly set the game alaight.

I hope SL's learnt his lesson.

ok lads- what's worrying me is a replacement for care?

Is young's playing ok? can he become a a decent replacement? Or is anyone else going to be tried out?

Youngs' form has improved

yappysnap wrote:Yea but we weren't very good with that Hodgson/Farrell combo and those juniors didn't exactly set the game alaight.

I hope SL's learnt his lesson.

On the first I can agree, but didn't they push NZ in a Junior World Cup Final? I think they were a pretty fantastic bunch of juniors!

13 tuilagi 12 farrell 10 ford
this will be Lancaster's first choice sometime in the future.England finished the 6 nations like this snd it wasn't an accident.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Yea but we weren't very good with that Hodgson/Farrell combo and those juniors didn't exactly set the game alaight.

I hope SL's learnt his lesson.

On the first I can agree, but didn't they push NZ in a Junior World Cup Final? I think they were a pretty fantastic bunch of juniors!

True but that doesn't help my point CJ

sickofwendy wrote:13 tuilagi 12 farrell 10 ford
this will be Lancaster's first choice sometime in the future.England finished the 6 nations like this snd it wasn't an accident.

I hope I'm made to eat my words but I fear that backline! And not in a good way; in a boring, defense first, Tuilagi the decoy runner, Farrell the kicker and Ford totally unsupported when he's allowed to break kind of way.

I really hope they don't play Farrell and Ford at the same time. in the way ( 12 Farrell and 10 Ford )If they do i think we will get a serious kicking.

Care
Cipriani
May/Foden
Burrell
Eastmond
Yarde
Brown

All Black squad to be announced;

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/opinion/10031712/Wilson-No-surprises-likely-and-thats-good

Is he really bringing this kiwi lock Patterson in? Honestly...??!!!!!

We have this group of young English locks and they're honestly going to look at a f%&king ageing Kiwi???!!!! Furious is not the word!!!!
If its true ill be emailing Lancaster and the RFU with my displeasure!!!

Lawes
Launchbury
Attwood
Slater
Parling
Kitchener
Kruis
Stooke
Barrow

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is he really bringing this kiwi lock Patterson in? Honestly...??!!!!!

I got the impression Lancaster is only looking at him for the first training meet-up in England, when we will be short of locks and we need some to make training worthwhile. If it's anything more than that, then I won't be too impressed either.

Ah i see...as long as thats all it is.

The Crusaders game means the absolute minimum squad size will be 38 (midweek XV, test XV + 8 bench players assuming the bench is the same for both games). We're also likely to have between 4 and 8 test XXIII players unavailable for the first test because of the AP Finals.

That suggests a likely squad size of 44-46 (although it might be slightly smaller if there are some U20s players that he's planning to nick as injury cover).

When do they gather for the training camp?

I appreciate there will be a big squad going...and we may be missing some players for the first test.

Lawes (Saints), Slater, Kitchener, Parling (All Tigers) Kruis (Saracens),are in top four sides.

Thats still leave us with plenty of locks (not too mention the likes of Garvey etc who can double up as a lock if required)...to avoid having to bring in ANOTHER foreigner on Grand parent grounds.

I genuinely thought we were moving away from this type of selection...

I think I read somewhere that Garvey is injured anyway

LondonTiger wrote:the initial training squad, which meets up this week, will exclude any team whose season has yet to end. that does not leave many second rows left.

I'll just repeat this as it seems to have passed a few by. Teams whose season isn't finished yet: Sarries, Saints, Tigers, Quins (play-offs), Bath (Amlin), Wasps (play-off vs SF for Europe).

That rules out (as locks): Kruis, Lawes, Kitchener, Parling, Slater, Launchbury, Attwood, etc. (may have forgotten a few), hence why Patterson could get a look in. Simply put, he's selecting from half the teams (and the bottom half - Sale excluded - at that), which leaves few options.

Jeez, Six sides with most of the England players. Who will meet up with Lancaster? Chris Pennell and a pint of ale?

Think Garvey is injured for some time.

Such a shame, because he was having a stormer of a season since his full transition to the backrow.

I'm hoping like most that Paterson's inclusion is for the training camps only. I really don't see the advantages of him touring, or what he brings that no one else does. I know we'll be limited in selection for the first test, but i'm settled for the time being with Lawes and Launchberry starting, with Attwood off the bench. Behind Attwood is Slater pushing hard. No need for another 'lineout guy', who in my opinion is undersized and not what we need right now! Hat off to him for a very decent season though.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:the initial training squad, which meets up this week, will exclude any team whose season has yet to end. that does not leave many second rows left.

I'll just repeat this as it seems to have passed a few by. Teams whose season isn't finished yet: Sarries, Saints, Tigers, Quins (play-offs), Bath (Amlin), Wasps (play-off vs SF for Europe).

That rules out (as locks): Kruis, Lawes, Kitchener, Parling, Slater, Launchbury, Attwood, etc. (may have forgotten a few), hence why Patterson could get a look in. Simply put, he's selecting from half the teams (and the bottom half - Sale excluded - at that), which leaves few options.

Is that going to rule them out of the Barbarians match? That squad is going to have a patched up look if so.

01. (?)Nick Wood
02. (?) Jack Yeandle, Luke Cowan-Dickie
03. Henry Thomas/ Kieran Brookes
04. Dom Barrow
05. Michael Paterson/ Elliott Stooke
06. Tom Johnson
07. Matt Kvesic
08. Ben Morgan

09. Dan Robson
10. Danny Cipriani

11. Jonny May
12. (?) Adam Powell, Sam Hill
13. Henry Trinder
14. Marland Yarde
15. Luke Arscott/ Chris Pennell

Some odd selections, but hey Lancaster was at the Falcons vs. Exeter game at the weekend.

Mind you, they would do well not to get punked by what is looking a fearsome Barbarians team.

Very patchy squad Cumbrian! Would be goood to see what Cipriani could get done with that lot against the BaBaas.

Out of those choices though, I'd go Cowan-Dickie at 2 and Pennell at 15. They've both had fantastic seasons.

Doesnt the touring party leave before the barbarian game,surely that rules out may,yarde,Morgan etc?

A correction from the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/dannycipriani/10824565/Danny-Cipriani-correction.html

Our article "Danny Cipriani in line for England call-up after Stuart Lancaster asks for him to be rested from Sale Sharks game" stated that the fly-half did not play after the intervention of the head coach. We accept that this assertion was incorrect and apologise for the inaccuracy. The article has been taken down.

sickofwendy wrote:Doesnt the touring party leave before the barbarian game,surely that rules out may,yarde,Morgan etc?

Yes. If you are going on tour, you aren't playing against the Baa-Baas.

Well, I suppose there is an outside chance that Lancaster could decide there are people he definitely won't need for the first Test, regardless of potential training ground injuries on tour beforehand.

Judging by the lack of players available...ill be waiting for my call up for the Baas Baas game   

Does anyone know when the squads are announced?

Would like to see Sam Jones get a run out vs the BaaBaas.

Might even get to see Daly given a go in the 13,14,15 shirt? Or will Lancaster still ignore him...

Also that big Wasps no8 could theoretically have a game against the BaaBaa's without ruining his Fiji chances right? Sneaky way for us and him to see what he's got in the England set up...

My backline would be 9. Robson, 10. Cipriani, 11. JSD(c), 12. Powell, 13. Trinder, 14, Daly, 15, Pennell

is JSD fit again?

Will Vickery start or be on the bench?

Rugby Fan wrote:A correction from the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/dannycipriani/10824565/Danny-Cipriani-correction.html

Our article "Danny Cipriani in line for England call-up after Stuart Lancaster asks for him to be rested from Sale Sharks game" stated that the fly-half did not play after the intervention of the head coach. We accept that this assertion was incorrect and apologise for the inaccuracy. The article has been taken down.

I wonder how often they just this Poopie up and only apologise when called on it.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:A correction from the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/dannycipriani/10824565/Danny-Cipriani-correction.html

Our article "Danny Cipriani in line for England call-up after Stuart Lancaster asks for him to be rested from Sale Sharks game" stated that the fly-half did not play after the intervention of the head coach. We accept that this assertion was incorrect and apologise for the inaccuracy. The article has been taken down.

I wonder how often they just this Poopie up and only apologise when called on it.

Yeah, I reckon it happens all the time.

On that subject, Steve Coogan, in an interview about press regulations, was asking why retractions or corrections are allowed to just be a couple of inches on page 37 when the original 'made up' headline was in 3 inch letters on the front page.

You've got to love the press.

Cipriani won't be named against the Baa Baas as he'll be in the match day squad to face the All Blacks on 7th June.

Don't you people know anything!

  

Yappy,

Id rather Nathan Hughes just picked FIji played in the upcoming qualifier and went for the WC next year with them.

We have Billy, Ben Morgan, Ewers, Dickinson etc to pick from. Let Fiji get some quality players.

I agree Geordie, just thought it was interesting as a loophole, as he could I guess pull on the white shirt for free without any repercussions as it isn't a capped Test?

Yeah it is one of those...the lad looks a serious talent. Lets hope ALL of Fiji's players are available to them for the WC.

Thankfully looks like Hartley might be 'fit' for NZ, though it's a worry that he won't have had much game time. If Saints get knocked out in the semi finals, there is only the Amlin left to get match fit. Far from ideal really.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah it is one of those...the lad looks a serious talent. Lets hope ALL of Fiji's players are available to them for the WC.

I hope Fiji get rid of the corrupt military dictatorship so that people would perhaps WANT to represent them. I also hope Hughes chooses with his heart, whoever that may be. I also hope that the money generated by international games is split between the hosts and the vistors, rather than just covering expenses (if they're lucky). I also hope that fairer tour schedules are put in place for these teams.

So, just thinking on who could possibly represent England v BaaBaas -
So, no touring squad and no likely prem finalists (assuming Saints v Sarries) then this is a possible side -

01. Matt Mullan
02. Rob Buchanan/Grey
03. Kieran Brookes/Kyle Sinkler
04. Dom Barrow/G.Robson
05. Michael Paterson/Kitchener
06. Tom Johnson
07. Luke Wallace/Kvesik
08. Nathan Hughes/Waldrom

09. Dan Robson/K.Dickson
10. Henry Slade/B.Botica?

11. Rokodunguni/short
12. E.Daly
13. J.Joseph/Trinder
14. Tom Varndell
15. Chris Pennell/M.Tait

On the Hughes front it doesn't matter that it's a non-capped game I don't think. He'd still be deemed to have represented England. I'm not 100% on that would have to check but that's my instinct.

PropDavid, I think Mullan, Johnson and Wallace will definitely tour. Possibly Rokoduguni as well. Joe Gray is injured so I think it'll have to be Buchanan starting with possibly Lindsay on the bench.

I'd personally take Tait on tour but if not I can see him starting ahead of Pennell.