Englands Summer Tour of NZ - The rugby

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NZ tour squad

England squad flying on May 27 (30)
Props
Joe Marler (Harlequins), Matt Mullan (London Wasps), Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons), Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks), David Wilson (Bath Rugby)

Hookers
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Joe Gray (Harlequins), Dave Ward (Harlequins), Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)

Locks
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby), Joe Launchbury (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)

Back rows
James Haskell (London Wasps), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Scrum halves
Danny Care (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Fly halves
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby), Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)

Centres
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby), Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby), Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)

Wings
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby), Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Full backs
Mike Brown (Harlequins), Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)

Prem Final - 31st May (Sarries v Saints)

England v Baa Baas - 1st June

New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June.

Not sure about the Daly/Joseph axis. Think that could be pretty light weight.

I know he's probably not an Int but perhaps a bigger guy like JTH at 12 to take the pressure off Cips/Slade? I'd have Daly either at 13 or 14. Likewise Joseph or Eastmond on the wing.

1.Catt
2.Buchanan or Lindsay
3.Brookes, S Wilson or Sinckler - Two will likely tour with 4 THs traveling so start the one who remains behind
4.Stooke
5.Barrow
6.Jones
7.Saull?
8.Ewers

9.Lewis - With 4 SH's going to NZ I'd tour Robson
10.Cipriani or Slade

11.Rokodugini
12.Hill
13.Trinder - I'd take Daly to NZ
14.Sharples or Varndell
15.Tait or Pennell

It's looking like it could be a painful day for whatever front row is there with Afoa and Hayman already confirmed.

How exactly is Hughes qualifying to play for England? Regardless of how it effects his Fiji/Samoa eligibility.

What are the rules about playing an uncapped match for a nation?
I think it would be great to have him involved (in the baabaas game) but only if its allowed. There are other options for England at No.8 so its not worth bending the rules for him if its too soon.
Carlos, yes good shout about Saull - he's kind of the forgotten man since going to falcons.
Agree Yappy that the Daly-Joseph combo could be a bit undersized! But, it is a BaaBaa's game - add to that that there is little expectation considering the finals and the tour group being omitted. Any combination would be worth a look in my mind.
I certainly wouldnt want JTH to be there though!
He still isnt looking great for Quins - he is carrying more but there have been some poor defensive lapses on his part!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27417566

15 players (presumably for the Baa Baas game) will be announced today and will come from Worcester, Newcastle, Irish, Gloucester, Exeter and Sale.

Will be interesting to see who gets the nod.

The number of players is the various groups will be interesting, the total must surely be more than 60. For instance the Baba's squad will need at least 23 players. The advance guard to New Zealand would probably need around 25-30 with an additional dozen or so coming after the finals.

Also interesting in certain positions - e.g. props of hookers where two players per position are needed. So if Sarries and Saints were in the final, England would loose temporarily the services of Mako and Waller, and with Corbs injured. They would still need to field two loose heads for the Baba's and have at least two in New Zealand for the first test. It would also seem reckless to travel to NZ without at least 5 props (one who could play both sides) or go with 6 from the offset (3 LH and 3 TH).

This may mean that initially there are 3 LH's in NZ with potentially Mako joining later. Waller would then potentially have no chance of selection. Obviously Marlar and Mullans were be first and second choices but who would be a travelling back-up (if required) and who would play against the Baba's.

Catt and Wood might be OK for Baba's but what about a third choice for the initial NZ squad? If England only went with 2 LH's and one was injured before the match would this lead to the match being cancelled.

This issue of needing players in multiple locations will also affect the other positions.

CB

Prem Semi Finals - 16-17 May
HC and Amlin final - 23-24 May
England NZ tour party fly out 27th May
Prem Final - 31st May
England v Baa Baas - 1st June
New Zealand v England (First Test)- 7th June
New Zealand v England (Second Test) - 14th June
Crusaders v England - 17th June
New Zealand v England (Third Test) - 21st June..

20 man training squad announced, made up of teams that are out of the top 4.

Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks)
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Michael Paterson (Sale Sharks)
Chris Pennell (Worcester Warriors)
Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)
Tommy Taylor (Sale Sharks)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Henry Trinder (Gloucester Rugby)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)

Some good players, but no loose head (unless LCD), only one lock, no scrum half. Slightly lope sided.

CB

Im curious why Scott Wilson has not travelled with the U20's??

As for this squad...nothing unexpected.

My big issue though is, whilst i understand the shortage of players situation etc...why is Paterson in there at lock? Id prefer to have seen Barrow or Stooke in there!

cb wrote:Some good players, but no loose head (unless LCD), only one lock, no scrum half. Slightly lope sided.

CB

Just gives you a good indication of who the LHs will be to tour. Marler, Mako, Mullan, possibly Corbs,

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im curious why Scott Wilson has not travelled with the U20's??

As for this squad...nothing unexpected.

My big issue though is, whilst i understand the shortage of players situation etc...why is Paterson in there at lock? Id prefer to have seen Barrow or Stooke in there!

I think Paterson's just there to see how he goes in training. As soon as the usual boys are back in town, I don't think we'll see a surprise inclusion. I'm sure he's at the back of a long list of locks.

Very happy for LCD- but Taylor from Sale is a bold call.

Good to also see Robson and Sharples from Gloucester rewarded too. Sharples is close to becoming a forgotten England man, but has had a tidy season, and is too useful to just drop off the radar.

bluestonevedder wrote:

cb wrote:Some good players, but no loose head (unless LCD), only one lock, no scrum half. Slightly lope sided.

CB

Just gives you a good indication of who the LHs will be to tour. Marler, Mako, Mullan, possibly Corbs,

SL has stated Corbs won't tour

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im curious why Scott Wilson has not travelled with the U20's??

As for this squad...nothing unexpected.

My big issue though is, whilst i understand the shortage of players situation etc...why is Paterson in there at lock? Id prefer to have seen Barrow or Stooke in there!

I think Paterson's just there to see how he goes in training. As soon as the usual boys are back in town, I don't think we'll see a surprise inclusion. I'm sure he's at the back of a long list of locks.

I appreciate that Eddie....but i just dont see the point what so ever. He's a 29 yo Kiwi. We have barrow and stooke who look the real deals...they are potentially the future, young passionate Englishmen who arent tied up in finals...id have picked them easily over Patterson.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

cb wrote:Some good players, but no loose head (unless LCD), only one lock, no scrum half. Slightly lope sided.

CB

Just gives you a good indication of who the LHs will be to tour. Marler, Mako, Mullan, possibly Corbs,

SL has stated Corbs won't tour

Thank god for that. I want him to spend the entire summer sitting down, legs elevated, on oxygen, so he's fully fit for next season and he might actually string a few games together.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im curious why Scott Wilson has not travelled with the U20's??

As for this squad...nothing unexpected.

My big issue though is, whilst i understand the shortage of players situation etc...why is Paterson in there at lock? Id prefer to have seen Barrow or Stooke in there!

Quite agree would have preferred the young guys even if they won't make the tour. I think it's about the message, I would like the message to be 'you have had a good prem season Mr Stooke, you represented the U20s well and we picked you over a much older player who isn't particularly English'.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im curious why Scott Wilson has not travelled with the U20's??

As for this squad...nothing unexpected.

My big issue though is, whilst i understand the shortage of players situation etc...why is Paterson in there at lock? Id prefer to have seen Barrow or Stooke in there!

I think Paterson's just there to see how he goes in training. As soon as the usual boys are back in town, I don't think we'll see a surprise inclusion. I'm sure he's at the back of a long list of locks.

I appreciate that Eddie....but i just dont see the point what so ever. He's a 29 yo Kiwi. We have barrow and stooke who look the real deals...they are potentially the future, young passionate Englishmen who arent tied up in finals...id have picked them easily over Patterson.

Me too! I think SL just likes to reinforce the idea of selecting on form, so he sort of forced his own hand here since Paterson's had possibly the best season of any Premiership lock.

The crazy thing is Marler has played so well for England that we havent missed Corbs half as much as we thought....and Waller has done the same for Saints.

Add in Mako and we're in pretty damn good shape for LH's.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The crazy thing is Marler has played so well for England that we havent missed Corbs half as much as we thought....and Waller has done the same for Saints.

Add in Mako and we're in pretty damn good shape for LH's.

Could you imagine if they were all fit and on form....I think I need a cold compress.

cb wrote:Some good players, but no loose head (unless LCD), only one lock, no scrum half. Slightly lope sided.

CB

Dan Robson is a 9.

Do agree that is lopsided - 3 10s seems a little over the top.

Especially as there are 3 others - Farrell,Ford and Myler which will likely come into the squad.

Well actually i agree with the 3 10's. Aside from Farrell not one of the other 10's are guarenteed.

This way he gets a look at all of them...and who might work.

So who else will come into that side? As it's a 20 man squad and a 23 man game I guess a few more are required for the Baabaa's match...

yappysnap wrote:So who else will come into that side? As it's a 20 man squad and a 23  man game I guess a few more are required for the Baabaa's match...

Depends which sides lose the semi-finals.

Has this been announced as squad for baa baas?
I thought it was just a training squad with another to be announced.
will the squad who play baa baas then fly out for the midweek match?
confused.com

Just a training squad.

Just a training squad for the next week, with the players trying to get selection for the Barbarians game and tour. Presumably he's planning to give the losing semi-finalists the next week off before he announces the full squad.

Ah, that teaches me for assuming! I was thinking this would be the majority for the baabaa's game. So the losers of the play offs drop in and get a weeks training right? Or at least the one's that aren't flying off to NZ mid week.

When does the tour squad get announced? Must be in the next week or two.

yappysnap wrote:Ah, that teaches me for assuming! I was thinking this would be the majority for the baabaa's game. So the losers of the play offs drop in and get a weeks training right? Or at least the one's that aren't flying off to NZ mid week.

When does the tour squad get announced? Must be in the next week or two.

26 May final squad apparently.

Then it makes even less sense to have Patterson in there!

Does this mean we are taking 40 to nz and an entirely different group for the baa baas or mix and match?

I'd guess it will be the end of next week. Bath have the Amlin as well of course, which I'd forgotten.

sickofwendy wrote:Does this mean we are taking 40 to nz and an entirely different group for the baa baas or mix and match?

The players announced today wont even necessarily be in the squad by the time of the Barbarians game. Their provisionally just in for the next week before the proper squads are announced.

Cheers
im just worried where we will find 6 fit hookers......Amsterdam?

"The final squads for the trip to New Zealand and the Barbarians match will be announced on Monday, 26 May."

Four of each front row position, I remember someone saying.

Hartley (?)
Youngs
Webber (?)

Ward
Gray
Buchanan
LCD
Paice?

Ward has had a great season but his throwing is still slightly suspect. I wouldn't want New Zealand getting any more turnover ball than is absolutely necessary. We saw what happened when Youngs' throwing went wrong in the autumn.

On the flipside, he'd be extremely handy at defensive breakdowns, especially given that none of our back row are specialists at it. Wins a ludicrous number of turnovers.

Thats because he used to be a 7 Thomh

Geordiefalcon to be honest I don't see the point in picking Burns - give him the summer off - allow him to have a pre-season with Tigers to get himself in shape. His head has not been in the right place this season.

No not one 10 is guaranteed but 6 means you sacrifice someone in a different position.

Pretty happy with it, would love to see LCD push hard for selection to the tour

They'll probably judge that of Burns after this little gathering anyway Beshocked. They'll release him.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon to be honest I don't see the point in picking Burns - give him the summer off - allow him to have a pre-season with Tigers to get himself in shape. His head has not been in the right place this season.

No not one 10 is guaranteed but 6 means you sacrifice someone in a different position.

Not sure he may do better touring and being accepted into the squad again rather than made to feel his career has sunk to its lowest depth. On the other hand moving to a new club and not getting a proper pre-season can be a disadvantage. Likely that Williams will also be touring with Wales though so may not put him at a disadvantage.

Patterson wouldn't have been my choice no matter how well he might have tackled and run a line-out. The likes of Barrow or Stooke who've both had superb seasons for very young locks would've been a better call in my opinion. Patterson does cover the line-out question though which neither of those two do and I can't think of another 5 who does in those clubs that are available.

thomh wrote:Four of each front row position, I remember someone saying.

Hartley (?)
Youngs
Webber (?)

Ward
Gray
Buchanan
LCD
Paice?

Ward has had a great season but his throwing is still slightly suspect. I wouldn't want New Zealand getting any more turnover ball than is absolutely necessary. We saw what happened when Youngs' throwing went wrong in the autumn.

On the flipside, he'd be extremely handy at defensive breakdowns, especially given that none of our back row are specialists at it. Wins a ludicrous number of turnovers.

Paice is injured.

As is Gray. Buchanan is apparently fit but hasn't been subbed on in any games, so I think he may not be quite there yet.

Just a thought for the Baa Baas game but I wonder if any of Corbs, Youngs or Croft could make an appearance if not involved in the Prem final. They have been confirmed as not touring to give them a full pre-season but the Barbarians game could be a chance to get another match under their belts. Would also add some much needed experience to the possible side!

king_carlos wrote:Just a thought for the Baa Baas game but I wonder if any of Corbs, Youngs or Croft could make an appearance if not involved in the Prem final. They have been confirmed as not touring to give them a full pre-season but the Barbarians game could be a chance to get another match under their belts. Would also add some much needed experience to the possible side!

I'd prefer that. A few experienced guys scattered in with the fringe players rather than just the fringe guys.

The original thinking behind the Baa Baas fixture is that it would give some potential tourists a tune-up. The First Test was originally envisaged to be on the 14th June, so that's a big gap if your season has ended or if you are a losing semi-finalist at the weekend.

Now, of course, anyone needed for the First Test, whether in the match day squad, or for cover and training, will be flying out on the 27th.

Lancaster might well be concerned that the odds and sods available for the Barbarians could end up like lambs to the slaughter. The individuals may even be less familiar with each other than the Barbarians, which will be something of a first.

That might explain why he's prepared to consider a player like Paterson. You don't necessarily learn a lot about young players if you blood a whole batch at once against seasoned opposition. It might be better to have some solid premiership performers dotted around. The stock of those available to him for this match is fairly thin.

I wonder, if he could decided the schedule again, whether Lancaster would want the Barbarians fixture. It has lost most of its purpose, and seems more akin to trying to rustle up a meal from scraps in the kitchen.

It's interesting that many rugby reporters, who talked up Cipriani's inclusion, are now downgrading their expectations, and see him as a starter in that Baa Baas match rather than a tourist.

Well this weekend will give us a hell of a lot of answers once the finalists are sorted out.

Then at Least Lancas will have a much better idea of things.

I personally would not want to see a Saints v Quins Final. That could leave us short of a lot of 1st teamers.

Has Lancaster actually said the exact number in the touring party?

NZ Touring - 42
LH’s: Marler, M. Vunipola, A.Waller
Ho:Hartley, Ward, J.George (Cowan Dickie - I have a sneaky feeling he'll go on tour - maybe fly out after the Baa Baas game?)
TH: D.Wilson, H.Thomas, Sinkler, Brookes (Covers both sides and even hooker at a push)
Locks:Lawes, Launchbury, Attwood, Slater, 1 x (Barrow / Kitchener / Stooke / Kruis..etc)
6/7: Robshaw, Wood, Clark, Kvesic, Fearns, Haskell
8: B.Vunipola, B.Morgan, Ewers

9: D.Care, B.Youngs, Wigglesworth
10: Farrell, Ford, Cipriani
12 / 13: Burrell, Tuilagi, Barritt, Twelvetrees, Daly
11/14: Ashton, Yarde, May, Watson
15: Brown, Foden, Goode

Then based on a Sarries v Tigers Final

Are we estimating:
Baas Baas Squad - 23

1 Catt
2 Haywood
3 K.Brookes (To Fly out to NZ after game)
4 Barrow
5 Stooke
6 Mark Wilson
7 Wallace
8 Dickinson

9 Robson
10 Myler / Burns / Slade

11 Banahan
12 Sam Hill
13 Joseph
14 Sharples / Benjamin
15 Pennell

Phew

How has Luke Cowan Dickie leapfrogged Jamie George?

He hasn't but George plays for Sarries and no players from the clubs making up the semi finals have been pciked!

I think Beshocked was referring to GF's touring squad. I think Cowan-Dickie may be in the barbarian squad but I doubt he would go over George (and nor should he). CD has only played 10 times for Exeter this season and 7 were replacements.