Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Ok following the match thread and just the forum in general, it appears now that the European cup has been sorted, it looks like Sarries are back to being the arch villians of NH rugby.

So i would like to ask this. Why do they attract so much dislike?

Its full of saffers! 5 in the whole squad(inc acadamy)
They ground share! Nope got a nice shiney new stadium
They have no support! still fill 10k most weeks(ok on here its just beshocked and myself)
Their boring! Nope second highest trys scored in AP and higest in HC
Their a small club! Everyone has to start small(unless your told your now a region)
Their new money!! Sorry they played by the rules when it was the amature days and did not pay players like some of the bigger old money clubs hence they stayed small
They have Borthwick/Ashton/Farrell....!! Yep we do, funny how people only see the bad when they are no longer your players. And im sure your side is full of lovable players! Hartley/Youngs/Care/Clarke........

So i hope that covered all the old repetative stuff. So why are they still the side no one likes?

What are u talking about?

I thought it was pretty self explanatory ?

Sarries played ASM

I was there and didn't hear any broadcast music.

So again, what do u mean?

When they played Munster...

munkian wrote:I think when they tried to drown out the Munster supporters with their awful piped in music lacked a lot of class

i.e All these 'fans' on corporate tickets don't actually care enough to actually cheer so we'll try to drown out the actual fans with 'stand up for the Saracens'

The number of fans on corporate tickets at Watford could probably have been counted on the toes of one hand.

quinsforever wrote:Sarries played ASM

I was there and didn't hear any broadcast music.

So again, what do u mean?

I suspect he is talking about the 2012 match.

Wasn't there

That is 100% standard fare in sports in the US though. Can't believe it upsets anyone. If sarries don't have good songs does that mean they should stfu at home games in awe at the visiting supporters voices? Tad unrealistic methinks.

the snobbery of "real" rugby fans supporting "real" rugby teams is always amusing.

quinsforever wrote:What are u talking about?

When Munster played Saracens in the groups last year, everytime the Munster fans started singing the Fields of Athenry, they played their chant on the PA system    It was really awful what they tried to do.

Some Saracens fans were not happy about it either:

The Saracens website has seen a huge volume of complaints from home supporters over this unsporting tactic.

“I have to agree that the playing of music was one of the most embarrassing things I have had to listen to. We are definitely better than this,” said one supporter.

“I was brought to Saracens by a friend. He was embarrassed and so was I. First and last time to go to a Saracens game. How do I get my money back?” asked another disgruntled fan.

LondonTiger wrote:the snobbery of "real" rugby fans supporting "real" rugby teams is always amusing.

Actually, it made Saracens & (their lack of support) look pathetic.

Blame the PA man - damned football people.



(and yes that is my anti football snobbery )

quinsforever wrote:Wasn't there

That is 100% standard fare in sports in the US though. Can't believe it upsets anyone. If sarries don't have good songs does that mean they should stfu at home games in awe at the visiting supporters voices? Tad unrealistic methinks.

Its not about having good songs, its about having no fans   

quinsforever wrote:Wasn't there

That is 100% standard fare in sports in the US though. Can't believe it upsets anyone. If sarries don't have good songs does that mean they should stfu at home games in awe at the visiting supporters voices? Tad unrealistic methinks.

Ah well if the US are doing it   

Its nothing to do with 'good' songs, its about vocal support

Bet the sarries fans didn't mind too much. Is that the best quote u could find?

Alls fair in love and war

Scotland imported a peatbog for their home 6Ns matches this year for example...

Sin é wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:the snobbery of "real" rugby fans supporting "real" rugby teams is always amusing.

Actually, it made Saracens & (their lack of support) look pathetic.

all week we have had people mocking and denigrating Saracens for not being a "real" team. even had a massive post by a mod as to why they are despised for being upstarts. that is what I was jokingly referring to.

The same attitudes to Saracens are espoused by a fair few followers of my own team.

This holier than thou attitude we often see, primarily from Munster and Leicester fans, about stuff is far more pathetic.

Agree LT. It's pretty funny. Sport is about winning. Munster fans expect to be allowed to turn away matches into home ones and have the home teams do nothing about it. Some will and some won't. Quins messed up. Sarries are a bit more cunning.

quinsforever wrote:Wasn't there

That is 100% standard fare in sports in the US though. Can't believe it upsets anyone. If sarries don't have good songs does that mean they should stfu at home games in awe at the visiting supporters voices? Tad unrealistic methinks.

This is a comment from a forum:

Couldn't agree more. I have season tickets for college football at one of the US's biggest programs, and they know how to stage the event properly - the entire spectacle is a wonderful piece of theatre. Huge marching bands, cheerleaders, properly timed music, etc. Rugby seems to want to import these features, but just can't do it convincingly, and the net effect is simply tacky.

quinsforever wrote:Agree LT. It's pretty funny. Sport is about winning. Munster fans expect to be allowed to turn away matches into home ones and have the home teams do nothing about it. Some will and some won't. Quins messed up. Sarries are a bit more cunning.

You seriously think that tacky ploy would have been the difference between winning and losing for Quins?

Why not just pipe in cheering fans via the PA so people can just stay at the bar ? If thry aren't cheering themselves then they obviously aren't interested in the rugby.

And its not a 'holier than thou' attitude, its about keeping things a little bit real and not going down the awful fake plastic American sports route

Most fans of my team that I know are a bit more myopic and worry anbout ourselves. In fact, we generally worry aboout every match we play. I think most people look at Sarries and wonder how they stack the team and stay under the cap. Outside of that, I think there is mostly respect. They are not just a collection of talent - they play as a real team, and do it very well.

I suppose there is always one exception too the rule of always worrying about ourselves. We do occasionally cast a glance at that team lurking just up the M1.........

It's sometimes tacky in the States too.

More of a cultural thing for Europeans to find it tacky tbh

Fair play o sarries for trying new things.

Fair play to the irfu in turning unsupported regional representative sides (players were primarily club players first, provincial second) into the powerhouses they are today.

Change is not always bad.

Quins might have done better if we hadn't sold our tickets on.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sin é wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:the snobbery of "real" rugby fans supporting "real" rugby teams is always amusing.

Actually, it made Saracens & (their lack of support) look pathetic.

all week we have had people mocking and denigrating Saracens for not being a "real" team. even had a massive post by a mod as to why they are despised for being upstarts. that is what I was jokingly referring to.

The same attitudes to Saracens are espoused by a fair few followers of my own team.

This holier than thou attitude we often see, primarily from Munster and Leicester fans, about stuff is far more pathetic.

I think Sarries are going out of their way to be obnobxious as its the only way they will get any attention.

I hate all that fake entertainment stuff that a lot of clubs put on. Thats my preference.

It's all part of "the show"

Hurray for Hollywood...

What next ? Players coming in through the car park ? Hashtag buzzwords ?   

ME-109 wrote:Because you're foreign FA just to give you some background. In Ireland club tournaments (that is below the provinces) were only held at a provincial level until the all Ireland league was set up in 1990. Up to then the interprovincial championship which started in 1946 was the only all,Ireland tournament and was the starting point to getting on the international team. With the advent of the all Ireland club competition in 1990 the interprovincial championship took off and was the natural level for a professional game in Ireland within the irfu structures.

on top of that the provincial sides have a long history against touring sides. Munster for example have a better record against the ABs and Aus than Ireland have.

here endith the lesson

So in the old days how many games a season did they play?

Would you say the North of England, Midlands or London has a rich history too as teams? Because their was also a regional tournament in England in the amateur era right up to pro times. They played say a couple of games a year and then once or twice a decade vs. the SH test sides (weekend sides that is... which is a big diff).

Saracens was a club that played in week in week out in the amateur era and had a good albeit not glorious tradition especially of churning out top players like 93 Lions tour man of the series Ben Clarke, Jason Leonard and Richard Hill. They are have more tradition as a club then regions activated as clubs in the 90s.

fa0019 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Because you're foreign FA just to give you some background. In Ireland club tournaments (that is below the provinces) were only held at a provincial level until the all Ireland league was set up in 1990. Up to then the interprovincial championship which started in 1946 was the only all,Ireland tournament and was the starting point to getting on the international team. With the advent of the all Ireland club competition in 1990 the interprovincial championship took off and was the natural level for a professional game in Ireland within the irfu structures.

on top of that the provincial sides have a long history against touring sides. Munster for example have a better record against the ABs and Aus than Ireland have.

here endith the lesson

So in the old days how many games a season did they play?

Would you say the North of England, Midlands or London has a rich history too as teams? Because their was also a regional tournament in England in the amateur era right up to pro times. They played say a couple of games a year and then once or twice a decade vs. the SH test sides (weekend sides that is... which is a big diff).

Saracens was a club that played in week in week out in the amateur era and had a good albeit not glorious tradition especially of churning out top players like 93 Lions tour man of the series Ben Clarke, Jason Leonard and Richard Hill. They are have more tradition as a club then regions activated as clubs in the 90s.

Now I know you are a complete t   l

I'm not the one who names himself after a nazi warplane dude.

The North of England played and beat the ABs too if I recall in the amateur era. They played in a regional annual tournament too.

fa0019 wrote:I'm not the one who names himself after a nazi warplane dude.

The North of England played and beat the ABs too if I recall in the amateur era. They played in a regional annual tournament too.

The Provinces used play the English and Welsh Clubs as well as having interprovincials. For instance, just before Munster beat the All Blacks, they had played one or two games (and got hammered) by England Regional sides.

quinsforever wrote:Bet the sarries fans didn't mind too much. Is that the best quote u could find?

Alls fair in love and war

Scotland imported a peatbog for their home 6Ns matches this year for example...

Actually, we imported a nematode worm infestation that created the peat bog.

Never said that provinces/regions didn't play games nor had a good history. Playing for the regions was taken seriously.

What I said was that to say Saracens doesn't have a history in not true. They have a rich history as a club, as a good club in the amateur era, one who produced many good players. The have just a deep a history as regional sides activated as pro clubs in the 90s which was my point in the first place.

Yes they have hired a lot of foreign personnel and have a high turnover, but they fielded 9 English players in their XV on Saturday. That is as good as you'll get in the AP.. all of the them internationals.

The Saracens club has been a constant in English top-level rugby virtually since the day dot.

The fact that I or anyone don't like their business model nor their Southern African reliance on players and financial backing as a Saffer fifth column nor its soccerisation tactics to destabilise the pro game and its near-unbelievable management of the wage cap is almost irrelevant when they can produce such sensational performances as they produced last Saturday.

That's a matter for the Rugby authorities.

I do wonder why though, the support of ASM is somehow preferable to Toulon (particularly in Ireland) . They are all cut from the same cloth in the Franglo leagues and elsewhere - it's just a matter of tailoring.

munkian wrote:I think when they tried to drown out the Munster supporters with their awful piped in music lacked a lot of class

i.e All these 'fans' on corporate tickets don't actually care enough to actually cheer so we'll try to drown out the actual fans with 'stand up for the Saracens'

That was one of the real turning points for me. Who on earth thinks thats a good idea? Rugby works best when it's built on a foundation of mutual respect. When you show massive disrespect to visiting supporters like that, you can't really complain about being disliked. Same way they showed a lot of disrespect to Ulsters fans in the run-up to the quarter-final with those ridiculous videos... It seems like there are some bad apples in the clubs marketing department who give everyone a bad name.

People have given very good examples of the good side of the team/club but why don't they just weed out these kinds of stunts that make them seem like pantomime villains? Its pretty easy to just not do it.

ME-109 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Because you're foreign FA just to give you some background. In Ireland club tournaments (that is below the provinces) were only held at a provincial level until the all Ireland league was set up in 1990. Up to then the interprovincial championship which started in 1946 was the only all,Ireland tournament and was the starting point to getting on the international team. With the advent of the all Ireland club competition in 1990 the interprovincial championship took off and was the natural level for a professional game in Ireland within the irfu structures.

on top of that the provincial sides have a long history against touring sides. Munster for example have a better record against the ABs and Aus than Ireland have.

here endith the lesson

So in the old days how many games a season did they play?

Would you say the North of England, Midlands or London has a rich history too as teams? Because their was also a regional tournament in England in the amateur era right up to pro times. They played say a couple of games a year and then once or twice a decade vs. the SH test sides (weekend sides that is... which is a big diff).

Saracens was a club that played in week in week out in the amateur era and had a good albeit not glorious tradition especially of churning out top players like 93 Lions tour man of the series Ben Clarke, Jason Leonard and Richard Hill. They are have more tradition as a club then regions activated as clubs in the 90s.

Now I know you are a complete t   l

Breathtaking debating skills there

Notch surely you should focus your criticism at Edward Griffiths. It is not the players or fans who approve some of these silly stunts. I do think that there is a bit of overreaction though.

I mean come on - it's pretty stupid to hate a club because of their use of the PA and editing a video. It's just as childish/petulant to get annoyed over something so silly.

Similar to hating a player because they do a swallow dive. I mean it's not as if Ashton does a nazi salute, swears at opposition fans etc. He does a stupid dive!


Surely you should rise above the childishness- laugh it off, instead you've been whipped up into a frenzy.

Stamping on people and head butting are far more serious offences yet if players do them....

Taking out players in the air is also something to be applauded....don't worry mate you could have broken the opposition players neck but that's ok........

I wouldn't get your hopes up Beshocked.

I think you know I'm not a huge lover of Sarries but you are worthy of you place in the final and done it on merit. good luck for the final.

beshocked wrote:Notch surely you should focus your criticism at Edward Griffiths. It is not the players or fans who approve some of these silly stunts. I do think that there is a bit of overreaction though.

I mean come on - it's pretty stupid to hate a club because of their use of the PA and editing a video. It's just as childish/petulant to get annoyed over something so silly.

Well you started out reasonably and well. Might as well excise the silly bit at the end.

We had this discussion for Saracens before and I did indeed say that my problem with Saracens was nothing to do with the players or fans, but the upper management of the club. And I don't hate Saracens. I was ambivalent towards them, now I dislike them. I don't really do anything with that dislike. If I was going out and trying to wind up their fans or cursing them out or doing a million other hateful things that would be childish and petulant.

All I do is feel mildly displeased when they win. Surely that isn't worthy of much thought on your part? I'm entitled on my opinions and I've used this thread to try and explain why people might feel cold towards this club in a respectful and dispassionate manner. This could easily degenerate into a slagging match but I'll have no part in it. The OP asked a honest question and I gave an honest answer

If you think that is a frenzy you'd hate to see what actual hatred constitutes. Violence, hate speech, racism etc. Thats being whipped into a frenzy. Harming people out of ignorance.

"Oh gosh, I hope Sarries don't win the Cup. They're awfully nouveau riche" pales in comparison. If they do win everyone will just shrug their shoulders and get on with life. Don't lose your sense of perspective.

Videos Notch ? Missed that one

LondonTiger wrote:the snobbery of "real" rugby fans supporting "real" rugby teams is always amusing.

Spot on LT, although I feel I have every right to look down my nose at these young upstarts. How dare they try and change the order of the old guard! I very much support a real club and we've been in existence since 1873. Unlike these nouveau riche Saracens who've only been in existence since 1876.


Sarries and likewise Toulon receive a lot of unjustified criticism purely on the basis that they have "bought" their success. Apparently this is not worth as much as any other success. Sarries performance at the weekend was not one of a team of mercenaries, but rather a team clearly built around a culture of intensity and work ethic. However, because they have "bought" this, it isn't worth as much as the success of the likes of Toulouse or Munster, who are more traditional sides and who of course have barely spent anything. I do wonder if any of the criticism is to do with some of the more traditional sides no longer being as successful?...   

I've never hidden my dislike for drums or music at Sarries, albeit this was based upon visits to VR rather than AP. We tried to initiate music after scores at Glaws once and it got booed after every try. I personally prefer that set up, however, that doesn't make what Sarries do wrong. In fact far from it; they are a side who due to the real estate prices in London have found themselves until recently to have a rather nomadic lifestyle. To build a new fanbase, which they are forced to do, they have to try and entice people away from other events. I don't know the figures, but taking an educated guess I would strongly suggest their average attendance has grown over the last few years, even ignoring the Big Game figures. The drums and piping out of music clearly appeal to some and I'm sure the success on the field appeals to them too. I think Sarries deserve an awful lot of credit. They've had to try a lot of initiatives and some haven't worked, but you do have to say they are in a very good place at present.

I am sorry Notch but I just dont understand your stance-How can you hate on a team(sarries) more due to the upper management yet dont mind it when the french teams have an even worse upper management.

munkian wrote:Videos Notch ? Missed that one

Is it of Goode being taken out in the air to the tune of CHUMBAWAMBA's 'I get knocked down, but I get up again You are never gonna keep me down'

mystiroakey wrote:I am sorry Notch but I just dont understand your stance-How can you hate on a team(sarries) more due to the upper management yet dont mind it when the french teams have an even worse upper management.

Who said I like the way French rugby is run? I feel very cynical and pessimistic about the entire future of the game in Europe in general after the whole dispute over the European Cup.

I massively admire the fans and passion these big French clubs engender but think the way the Top14 is going is incredibly dangerous for the game.

Saracens supporters in line for £2m handout from club if they win a Heineken Cup and Aviva Premiership double

Notch if that is getting to you- dont expect it to stop. Rugby is going the professional route and its going to be a case of having to accept it or keep getting annoyed for very little.

The standard of rugby is getting better and better and thats all that matters

If we all stood still then the game would fall apart.

munkian wrote:Saracens supporters in line for £2m handout from club if they win a Heineken Cup and Aviva Premiership double

Sure, they lost £32.7m the last 7 seasons, £2m is nothing for them...

munkian wrote:Saracens supporters in line for £2m handout from club if they win a Heineken Cup and Aviva Premiership double

Yep, this is why Irish rugby supporters now have to take out TV subscriptions if they want to watch the full european competition next year - to support these billionaires to own rugby (while doing untold damage to the game in Wales).

  pathetic.

Don't worry you don't pay as much tax as the rest of us.   

Scrumpy wrote:If we all stood still then the game would fall apart.

Just because its change doesn't mean its good.

Defence is king now, which makes it all rather boring as a spectator sport.