Saracens

by Knackeredknees Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

Ok following the match thread and just the forum in general, it appears now that the European cup has been sorted, it looks like Sarries are back to being the arch villians of NH rugby.

So i would like to ask this. Why do they attract so much dislike?

Its full of saffers! 5 in the whole squad(inc acadamy)
They ground share! Nope got a nice shiney new stadium
They have no support! still fill 10k most weeks(ok on here its just beshocked and myself)
Their boring! Nope second highest trys scored in AP and higest in HC
Their a small club! Everyone has to start small(unless your told your now a region)
Their new money!! Sorry they played by the rules when it was the amature days and did not pay players like some of the bigger old money clubs hence they stayed small
They have Borthwick/Ashton/Farrell....!! Yep we do, funny how people only see the bad when they are no longer your players. And im sure your side is full of lovable players! Hartley/Youngs/Care/Clarke........

So i hope that covered all the old repetative stuff. So why are they still the side no one likes?

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:27 pm

Scrumpy wrote:It won't be a bad thing to see the back of ERC, I saw nothing from them in the run up to the semi at HQ, no advertising from them anywhere as far as I saw.

Where would you expect to see advertising? You should have surely got some online banner stuff.

by fa0019 Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:28 pm

Until someone can challenge Newlands which brings in on average 35,000-40,000 (and that has been in the recession too) per match for the Stormers and WP then you're all just chasing 2nd place.

Even after playing only 3 home games (2 against non interest tahs and canes) its just under 30,000 this season, not bad for being bottom of the SR table. When the bigger sides and SA derby matches come to Newlands that figure will rocket up too.

In fact the Kings, Bulls, Reds often bring in more than 30,000 per home game.

Can anyone compete with that???

Yet still we can't even dream of competing for player contract matching with such European behemoths as Exeter, Newport & Connacht.

Sort of shows support is a hill of beans compared to corporate sponsorship & TV money.

by Scrumpy Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:30 pm

Sin é wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:It won't be a bad thing to see the back of ERC, I saw nothing from them in the run up to the semi at HQ, no advertising from them anywhere as far as I saw.

Where would you expect to see advertising? You should have surely got some online banner stuff.

Rugby Paper, in and around HQ a number of websites. I saw nothing to tickle my fancy!

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:32 pm

LondonTiger wrote:A couple of work colleagues tried to get tickets - the £15 were not available. They were quoted £50 by Ticketmaster as the cheapest available.

When did they try? You could have got them last Friday afternoon.

This was published on the ERC website on 6 April.

Prices
Category 1: Adults £50
Category 2: Adults £35
Category 3: Adults £15

http://www.ercrugby.com/news/28281.php#.U15zxsffYnU

by **Notch** Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:32 pm

But someone (Hound? Hammer?) posted that they were several full-page ads in The Rugby Paper.

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:33 pm

Scrumpy wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:It won't be a bad thing to see the back of ERC, I saw nothing from them in the run up to the semi at HQ, no advertising from them anywhere as far as I saw.

Where would you expect to see advertising? You should have surely got some online banner stuff.

Rugby Paper, in and around HQ a number of websites. I saw nothing to tickle my fancy!

Surely Saracens must have a database of people who have purchased tickets from them in the past. Did they email them with an offer?

Social media is the more normal type of promotion nowadays.

by mystiroakey Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:34 pm

Sin é wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:It won't be a bad thing to see the back of ERC, I saw nothing from them in the run up to the semi at HQ, no advertising from them anywhere as far as I saw.

Where would you expect to see advertising? You should have surely got some online banner stuff.

Rugby Paper, in and around HQ a number of websites. I saw nothing to tickle my fancy!

Surely Saracens must have a database of people who have purchased tickets from them in the past. Did they email them with an offer?

Social media is the more normal type of promotion nowadays.

what junk email nonsense. come on you advertise on talk sport and sky!- you buzz the game up..

by Majestic83 Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:36 pm

A piece of news I was hearing last night about a new Saracens signing....Jim Hamilton is on his way from Montpellier.
They are allowing to release him early from his contract if they can get a like for like replacement. Apparantely that will be Luke Charteris with Hamilton coming to Sarries.

by beshocked Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:38 pm

Sin e

This holier than thou attitude from the Irish is getting pretty tiresome.

The Irish anger has only really taken shape because they are worried that the French and English might well have trumped them.

It's the sheer ignorance from the Irish fans about Saracens which is the most irritating thing. You do not understand how Saracens works as a club.

Saracens are far from perfect but do not deserve the bitterness which has come from the Irish posters - including a mod! Most of the criticism is based on some stupid stunts by the CEO.

by Scrumpy Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:40 pm

Notch wrote:But someone (Hound? Hammer?) posted that they were several full-page ads in The Rugby Paper.

I never saw it!

Maybe it was around the Community/Rabo rugby pages that us English don't read! Laugh

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:41 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Scrumpy wrote:It won't be a bad thing to see the back of ERC, I saw nothing from them in the run up to the semi at HQ, no advertising from them anywhere as far as I saw.

Where would you expect to see advertising? You should have surely got some online banner stuff.

Rugby Paper, in and around HQ a number of websites. I saw nothing to tickle my fancy!

Surely Saracens must have a database of people who have purchased tickets from them in the past. Did they email them with an offer?

Social media is the more normal type of promotion nowadays.

what junk email nonsense. come on you advertise on talk sport and sky!- you buzz the game up..

Anyone half interested in rugby would not regard special offer of tickets to a Heineken Cup semi as junk mail. If they object to junk mail, they are not going to be taken in by ads in the Rugby Paper or elsewhere.

Saracens used Groupon to flog tickets in the past, by the way!

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:47 pm

beshocked wrote:Sin e

This holier than thou attitude from the Irish is getting pretty tiresome.

The Irish anger has only really taken shape because they are worried that the French and English might well have trumped them.

It's the sheer ignorance from the Irish fans about Saracens which is the most irritating thing. You do not understand how Saracens works as a club.

Saracens are far from perfect but do not deserve the bitterness which has come from the Irish posters - including a mod! Most of the criticism is based on some stupid stunts by the CEO.

1. I said that the Saracens fans that I have come across (last time at 08 semi) were very likable. I also said I was a great admirer of Richard Hill and I was delighted to see him play on that day before he retired.

2. I think the Irish provinces are probably in the best place to compete with the French clubs because a) we've got mostly international players in our 3 teams and b) we have loyal players who will think twice or three times before dropping the 'O' to take the soup!

3. I'm disgusted that the likes of Wray, McCaffeerty and Craig have turned rugby into an arms race with the full assistance of the RFU, more than likely destroying Scottish & Welsh rugby in their efforts to hoover up all funds and talent to take on the likes of Morad.

4. I think we (the Irish) have a far better chance of taking the likes of Morad on now.

by Guest Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:48 pm

I would think anyone even remotely interested in rugby union, in England, would have been aware of the game, and those that weren't. It was mentioned on BBC sport leading up to the game, in papers, and so on. I don't think advertising was the issue. People just didn't feel compelled to go for reasons other than not being aware there was a semi final.

by Scrumpy Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:51 pm

ERC were not fit for purpose anymore, they were an outdated company hence why they were given the boot.

by mystiroakey Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:52 pm

Munchkin wrote:I would think anyone even remotely interested in rugby union, in England, would have been aware of the game, and those that weren't. It was mentioned on BBC sport leading up to the game, in papers, and so on. I don't think advertising was the issue. People just didn't feel compelled to go for reasons other than not being aware there was a semi final.

too many of us a international fans only mate. thats the problem.

BT will really start pushing this out. Club rugby needs an injection of fans- and if its promoted the right way it will work

by beshocked Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:55 pm

1. Fair enough. Just your other posts have not reflected this.

2. Not sure I agree. Sexton went for the money, others might follow in the future. As for international players. I would say the like of Leicester,Saints,Sarries,Bath and Quins will be able to match what you throw at them next season.

3. Welsh and Scottish rugby haven't helped themselves. Still blaming the English? It's the French who have turned it into an arms race. Wray,Craig and Macfferty just happen to be the ones who are willing to stand up for English rugby. It's the French who need to be kept in line.

4. You think so? I admire your optimism.

by Guest Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:56 pm

The HEC was very successful for a competition run by those 'not fit for purpose', in terms of increase in viewing figures, and increase of revenue. It isn't as if this new competition has changed the format drastically, although split broadcasting might hit viewing figures hard. Time will tell.

by Scrumpy Mon Apr 28, 2014 4:58 pm

The thing to remember is that London hosts many big sporting events every week/month etc, if it hasn't been advertised properly then the normal man in the street (pink cowboy hat brigade) who might have gone for a day out wouldn't even know it was on.

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:04 pm

beshocked wrote:1. Fair enough. Just your other posts have not reflected this.

2. Not sure I agree. Sexton went for the money, others might follow in the future. As for international players. I would say the like of Leicester,Saints,Sarries,Bath and Quins will be able to match what you throw at them next season.

3. Welsh and Scottish rugby haven't helped themselves. Still blaming the English? It's the French who have turned it into an arms race. Wray,Craig and Macfferty just happen to be the ones who are willing to stand up for English rugby. It's the French who need to be kept in line.

4. You think so? I admire your optimism.

We've lost one frontline player which has probably put anyone else off going to France or England. Several have turned down offers recently. Apparently Conor Murray could name his price to move to France.

As for my optimism - 'To the brave and the faithful, nothing is impossible.' Having had a couple of successes, I honestly think the journey is more than exciting and I wouldn't have missed all those missed chances Munster had over the years.

With one or two home semis, we should be well in it. The French don't like travelling. Bear in mind that Jonny Wilkinson is retiring next season, and he was the difference to that team yesterday. Not all big money SH names can hack French rugby.

by Guest Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:09 pm

mystiroakey wrote:
Munchkin wrote:I would think anyone even remotely interested in rugby union, in England, would have been aware of the game, and those that weren't. It was mentioned on BBC sport leading up to the game, in papers, and so on. I don't think advertising was the issue. People just didn't feel compelled to go for reasons other than not being aware there was a semi final.

too many of us a international fans only mate. thats the problem.

BT will really start pushing this out. Club rugby needs an injection of fans- and if its promoted the right way it will work

Maybe, but we are talking about the 'here and now', and why more people didn't attend the semi. I seriously doubt it was because people were unaware, and if it's a case of fans of internationals not being interested in club rugby, that's hardly the fault of ERC. As far as I'm aware, the viewing figures of HEC games have been increasing, while attendances of AP games have been in decline. Maybe the clubs themselves should be doing more to promote the game?
Seems to be a lot of talk about how great this new competition is going to be, and I honestly hope it is, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating, not wishful thinking. I'm not convinced BT will have any more success than we have witnessed to date. Hopefully the competition will continue to be at least as successful as the ERC HEC. That's the benchmark.

by mystiroakey Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:15 pm

Sky didnt do enough to promote the AP, since BT has come in - I have watched more and viewing figures on tv are rising.

Lets try and stop the nonsense that its ok as its a minority sport . IT ISNT!!

Its a huge international game and many people(all though not many from were i live) play rugby in this country

by Guest Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:24 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Sky didnt do enough to promote the AP, since BT has come in - I have watched more and viewing figures on tv are rising.

Lets try and stop the nonsense that its ok as its a minority sport . IT ISNT!!

Its a huge international game and many people(all though not many from were i live) play rugby in this country

I don't know the figures, but seem to remember one reason viewing figures went up for BT was due to it being offered free? If that's true then once BT start charging the viewing figures may take a hit. Hopefully not. The problem for SKY isn't that they don't do enough to promote the sport, but more that they charge too much for viewing. SKY and BT can only do so much. They are largely preaching to the converted. It is success that's puts bums on seats, and increases viewing figures. People are drawn by success, and like to get on the bandwagon.

by mystiroakey Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:30 pm

exposure even free exposure to start with will end up increasing viewing even when it gets to become chargable- but tbh it is chargable to most anyway.

I have the premium virgin package therefore get it for free- but i pay them 102 pounds a month for everything. Trust me in the fact that I am paying for it.

Others got it free on BT broadband.. Well fine- but i cant see any reason why BT wont keep that within the BB package. BB isnt BB on its own anymore - Its BB and TV..

by thebandwagonsociety Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:43 pm

Why is it that fans get so defensive when opposition fans start moaning/slagging? It's the way of the world and if anything just shows that a team is relevant.

Take it as the begrudging compliment that it really is and walk that little bit taller in the knowledge that they see your side as a threat.

by mystiroakey Mon Apr 28, 2014 5:47 pm

I think the point is that it again isnt about a sarries v thread- its again an irish v england thing. And English fans just like in the ERC debates never understand why the hate is directed at the english set up and not the french

by Knackeredknees Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:39 pm

Hi all
Can I say thanks for all the replies many giving some good valid reasons why they dislike sarries and how they are perceived! Thanks Notch for yours, but it actually looks like bar a few Irish posters most like sarries as a group but it's the upper management tier that is the problem.
This unfortunate for us will not change, but wray has poured his heart and soul into us for a long time, longer that the average fan thinks or knows and thinks of us as a flash in the pan side build on sand. This is far from the truth and I hope if a few did a bit of research they would find a very strong development plan and community program in place.

by Nachos Jones Mon Apr 28, 2014 6:54 pm

As I said before, I rarely get into the politics of running clubs so have no opinion in that regard. I am just passionate about rugby and from what I have seen of Saracens has been some good rugby, I actually enjoy watching them.

Will be supporting them in the final.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:11 pm

Brian Moore is a curmudgeonly tell-it-as-he-sees-it type of bloke.

I wonder why I like him even when I don't always agree with him.

He got that piece spot on.
Again.

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:19 pm

mystiroakey wrote:I think the point is that it again isnt about a sarries v thread- its again an irish v england thing. And English fans just like in the ERC debates never understand why the hate is directed at the english set up and not the french

Its all this meritocracy hypocrisy from the English clubs (PRL) that annoys me. At least the French don't pretend that they have anything other than their own interests at heart.

by mystiroakey Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:28 pm

or maybe its because you just have an issue with certain english posters, whereas there are no French posters on here

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:32 pm

Sin é wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:I think the point is that it again isnt about a sarries v thread- its again an irish v england thing. And English fans just like in the ERC debates never understand why the hate is directed at the english set up and not the french

Its all this meritocracy hypocrisy from the English clubs (PRL) that annoys me. At least the French don't pretend that they have anything other than their own interests at heart.

There is nothing meritocratic about franchises, Sin.

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:42 pm

mystiroakey wrote:or maybe its because you just have an issue with certain english posters, whereas there are no French posters on here

There are a few French posters on Munsterfans and they seem sound enough.

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:44 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:I think the point is that it again isnt about a sarries v thread- its again an irish v england thing. And English fans just like in the ERC debates never understand why the hate is directed at the english set up and not the french

Its all this meritocracy hypocrisy from the English clubs (PRL) that annoys me. At least the French don't pretend that they have anything other than their own interests at heart.

There is nothing meritocratic about franchises, Sin.

I didn't know we were giving out any lectures on franchise meritocrisy.

My beef is with the way the PRL have repeatedly slagged off the supposedly unmeritocratic Heineken Cup while the PRL league is a bloody disgrace in how it treats some of its clubs and shares out its profits. Some clubs are more equal than others.

by **Notch** Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:56 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:Hi all
Can I say thanks for all the replies many giving some good valid reasons why they dislike sarries and how they are perceived! Thanks Notch for yours, but it actually looks like bar a few Irish posters most like sarries as a group but it's the upper management tier that is the problem.
This unfortunate for us will not change, but wray has poured his heart and soul into us for a long time, longer that the average fan thinks or knows and thinks of us as a flash in the pan side build on sand. This is far from the truth and I hope if a few did a bit of research they would find a very strong development plan and community program in place.

You're very welcome bud! I have a fair bit of sympathy for the average Sarries fan (especially when they started talking about moving games overseas a while back) but I think the mutual antipathy and misunderstanding on both sides is based on the fact the provinces and other Union run teams and the English/French clubs have fundamentally different long term goals. If future European accords are, like the rather painfully protracted and bitter one we've just gone through, based on trying to cram two fundamentally different systems together the mutual frustration is only going to increase.

by Portnoy's Complaint Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:26 pm

Sin é wrote:
Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:I think the point is that it again isnt about a sarries v thread- its again an irish v england thing. And English fans just like in the ERC debates never understand why the hate is directed at the english set up and not the french

Its all this meritocracy hypocrisy from the English clubs (PRL) that annoys me. At least the French don't pretend that they have anything other than their own interests at heart.

There is nothing meritocratic about franchises, Sin.

I didn't know we were giving out any lectures on franchise meritocrisy.

My beef is with the way the PRL have repeatedly slagged off the supposedly unmeritocratic Heineken Cup while the PRL league is a bloody disgrace in how it treats some of its clubs and shares out its profits. Some clubs are more equal than others.

Humbug, Sin. Sheer, utter humbug.

How do Connacht fare in the Peoples Republic Of All-Ireland?

I'm a declared and open critic of the PRL.
But at least I know that I'm in danger when throwing stones in my own glass house.

You however haven't even considered that your abode may not be as harmonious as it would like to appear externally.
But that's an on-going historic theme it seems in Celtic lands.

by Sin é Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:02 pm

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Portnoy's Complaint wrote:
Sin é wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:I think the point is that it again isnt about a sarries v thread- its again an irish v england thing. And English fans just like in the ERC debates never understand why the hate is directed at the english set up and not the french

Its all this meritocracy hypocrisy from the English clubs (PRL) that annoys me. At least the French don't pretend that they have anything other than their own interests at heart.

There is nothing meritocratic about franchises, Sin.

I didn't know we were giving out any lectures on franchise meritocrisy.

My beef is with the way the PRL have repeatedly slagged off the supposedly unmeritocratic Heineken Cup while the PRL league is a bloody disgrace in how it treats some of its clubs and shares out its profits. Some clubs are more equal than others.

Humbug, Sin. Sheer, utter humbug.

How do Connacht fare in the Peoples Republic Of All-Ireland?

I'm a declared and open critic of the PRL.
But at least I know that I'm in danger when throwing stones in my own glass house.

You however haven't even considered that your abode may not be as harmonious as it would like to appear externally.
But that's an on-going historic theme it seems in Celtic lands.

You may or may not have noticed, but Connacht have Pat Lam as their coach (former Super Rugby coach), which is more than Munster got. Then Connacht recruited the back-to-back Super Rugby winning captain of the Chiefs. Just recently they recruited Bundee Aki (according to Donal Lenihan in his column in the Examiner - they offered him 40,000 more than either Munster or Leinster were prepared to offer him).

So yea, the Peoples Republic of Connacht are being well taken care of at the moment.

by HammerofThunor Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:10 pm

Back on topic

Look what the bastards are doing now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10791582/Saracens-supporters-in-line-for-2m-handout-from-club-if-they-win-a-Heineken-Cup-and-Aviva-Premiership-double.html

Sorry, I know it's not Irish related but I thought perhaps we could could take a break.

by stub Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:13 pm

Saracens are scum hammer - I think you've established that! Wink

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:38 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Back on topic

Look what the bastards are doing now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10791582/Saracens-supporters-in-line-for-2m-handout-from-club-if-they-win-a-Heineken-Cup-and-Aviva-Premiership-double.html

Sorry, I know it's not Irish related but I thought perhaps we could could take a break.

This is totally out of the goodness of their hearts and has absolutely nothing to do with a marketing ploy to raise the profile and support for the club. Wink

Whats 2 million to a club already in 36 million debt.

by stub Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:40 pm

yep - scum

by HammerofThunor Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:49 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Back on topic

Look what the bastards are doing now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10791582/Saracens-supporters-in-line-for-2m-handout-from-club-if-they-win-a-Heineken-Cup-and-Aviva-Premiership-double.html

Sorry, I know it's not Irish related but I thought perhaps we could could take a break.
This is totally out of the goodness of their hearts and has absolutely nothing to do with a marketing ploy to raise the profile and support for the club. Whats 2 million to a club already in 36 million debt.

Who they hell would think they're doing it of their own hearts? Yes it's a marketing 'ploy' to benefit the loyal supporters who renew their season tickets early. Are you trying to make out like it's a bad thing? Because you're inferred tone (damn the written word) certainly suggests it.

by quinsforever Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:53 pm

jeez lf4l. if they didnt publicize the offer what would be the point?

randomly handing out gbp2m and declining to get any publicity for it would be very dumb.

there is some performance related money up for grabs from ERC. anyone know how much goes to the winner? and does the AP then divide it amongst all 12 participants like it does the rest of the HC/Amlin monies?

by stub Mon Apr 28, 2014 10:56 pm

How dare they? It's outrageous what these quasi cockney saffers will do to futher their evil plans to succeed..

by Margin_Walker Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:00 pm

This is worth watching for anyone with the time. Ex Sarries Academy player, and now employee Henry Fraser (brother of Will) giving a speech to the squad a few weeks ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS64DUztu-4&feature=youtu.be

Sure the odd marketing ploy or comment from Wray rubs people up the wrong way, but at the end of the day they are a tight knit club on the field and get where they are through a team spirit that not many clubs can match. It's not like they have set about signing superstars either, while their Academy is supplying more players to the England JWC squad this summer than any other. As a neutral there is a fair bit to like about them if you get past initial prejudices.

by HammerofThunor Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:12 pm

But it's so much easier to make judgements based on what the media shove in my face. You can't expect a man to look at things in depth. It'll take ages and I'd be too tired to rant and rave.

by HammerofThunor Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:17 pm

Edit: double post

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:45 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Back on topic

Look what the bastards are doing now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10791582/Saracens-supporters-in-line-for-2m-handout-from-club-if-they-win-a-Heineken-Cup-and-Aviva-Premiership-double.html

Sorry, I know it's not Irish related but I thought perhaps we could could take a break.
This is totally out of the goodness of their hearts and has absolutely nothing to do with a marketing ploy to raise the profile and support for the club. Whats 2 million to a club already in 36 million debt.

Who they hell would think they're doing it of their own hearts? Yes it's a marketing 'ploy' to benefit the loyal supporters who renew their season tickets early. Are you trying to make out like it's a bad thing? Because you're inferred tone (damn the written word) certainly suggests it.

It was tongue in cheek comment hence the winky face...I have nothing against Sarries and will probably support them in the final (don;t tell anyone but I even like the Ash splash).

by HammerofThunor Tue Apr 29, 2014 12:00 am

My bad. The website is running really slowly on my ipad and the smileys don't appear for ages. I did wonder (hence the bit about written word) Smile

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Apr 29, 2014 1:37 am

I don't have a strong opinion about Saracens but I have a lot of sympathy for anyone who tries to build a healthy rugby union franchise in London. It's not an easy thing to do.

We all know Quins and Wasps but, in the amateur days, the likes of Blackheath, Richmond and Rosslyn Park were on a par with Saracens in London. When you look at the crowds at Allianz Park, you shouldn't measure them against Munster and find them wanting. You should look at the current attendance figures for those three former greats, and marvel that Saracens have managed to attract ten times their number.

On paper, any of those clubs looked a better bet than Saracens. Blackheath has an enviable history and a well-located ground. Being close to Lewisham, they were something of a feeder club for London Irish (the exile clubs were all in rude health in the amateur days).

Rosslyn Park boasted the likes of Andy Ripley and, Paul Ackford. Ackford, like so many others, graduated to Quins. Nick Easter went that route too, while Cipriani went across to Wasps.

Richmond was an even likelier candidate to succeed and their story in the professional era should make anyone think twice about attacking Saracens. When John Hall was phoning Rob Andrew to join him at Gosforth, commodity trader Ashley Levett bought Richmond. He aimed to create a super club and bought in the Likes of Ben Clarke and Scott Quinnell. Dallaglio was due to join but the deal fell through.

Like so many London clubs, the problem was the ground. They played on Crown Estate land shared with London Scottish. Levett belatedly realized the problem and took them off to the Madejski. When he got bored and bailed a few years later, Richmond was forced into a merger with London Scottish and London Irish. Ben Clarke's international career effectively ended when he went to Richmond. The final nail was when Woodward passed him over for a tour place in favour of - Tony Diprose of Saracens.

If rugby union is going to be a successful professional sport in England then it probably needs a decent base in London, or at least the South East. Football can boast West Ham, Chelsea, Fulham, Spurs, Arsenal, Millwall, Crystal Palace, QPR and Charlton. London Wasps are over in Buckinghamshire. When Wimbledon relocated to Bucks, it caused a split in the football club. Irish play in Berkshire, so only Quins and Saracens actually have grounds in London.

If Wray was that bad, he would have bailed on Saracens just as Levett did with Richmond. Instead, he stuck with it and gone out of his way to secure a place for the sport in London where others have failed. I'm not going to buy a fez and join faithful over there but I wish Saracens no ill.

by yappysnap Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:41 am

Notch wrote:If your willing to engage with me honestly and at face value- i.e not hang me out to dry for feeling how I feel, I'll try and explain why so many Irish fans dislike Saracens. Because I've never met a single Irish fan who has the time of day for Saracens, not one in any circumstances ever, and I'll try and explain why.

I appreciate that you're very passionate about your team, and thats commendable, I just had to add that preface to make sure that this isn't going to be a witch hunt thread against people who are ambivalent towards Saracens at best- they are entitled to their opinions on your team. I understand it's hurtful for you and other Sarries fans when other fans dislike you and passions get inflamed so I'm going to engage so long as the discussion is respectful and measured.

I think there are two main reasons for the almost universal dislike, and the first one is to to do with fear over the commercialisation of the game. BUT. I don't think that is the biggest reason. There has been chapter and verse written on commercialisation, the European Cup dispute etc on here, most of it needlessly spiteful and emotionally charged- I'm not even gonna touch it with a barge pole.

I think the biggest reason Saracens are incredibly unpopular across the Irish sea is because we can't figure them out. They seem like a hollow club. I know what values our teams represent to the people who support them. As Ulster said in their preview video for the Heineken Cup quarterfinal 'Remember when you play at Ravenhill, you are not just playing 15 men. You are playing the entire province of Ulster.' The mechanics of professional rugby necessitate that our provinces are run as businesses but they are extensions of our communities. The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger. When you play Saracens, you play Saracens. It's not about a community, a people. It's just a team with 15 players. Everything that is so incredibly precious to us about the sport of rugby in Ireland- sport in general in Ireland- links back to community and belonging. Kids who grow up to represent their province. It's an incredible honour and a privilege for a kid for Limerick to play for Munster. It's what sustains that whole area. Is it a privilege for a London kid to play for Saracens? I don't know. From the outside it seems like everything that we love about rugby, seems to be absent from Saracens make-up. And in place of it instead there is marketing gimmicks and plans to make the game more commercial, and massive amounts of private investment that allows the club to be run at a loss. The fact that Sarries released a couple of videos which seemed exclusively aimed at taking the urine out of that element of our support, including a hamfisted overdub of the afore-mentioned video, means they really aren't very welcome at Ravenhill to be honest. We've had great times win or lose with great clubs who come over with a healthy mutual respect, like Saints and Leicester. I thought it was crazy that the club themselves released videos that seemed designed to whip up ill will from Ulster fans and then never apologised. Even a Saracens fan must be able to admit that lacked class?

That links back to the reason Clermont are so incredibly popular in Ireland- because of their amazing fans. When they come over there's a mutual recognition of the similarities between their support and our support. They are from this small town where everybody is legitimately rugby mad. They have thousands of fans that follow them all around Europe- their fans are incredible. I was gutted when I read about the result yesterday, but not because Saracens won. Those Clermont fans are the most passionate in Europe and that scoreline is devastating for them.

I never cared about Clermont until I heard the noise their fans made. Bright yellow noise making lunatics. Since they visited Ravenhill they've been my second team. Their just like us. I've had good craic with fans from all around Europe, including English and French sides. I would welcome back Northampton, Leicester, Clermont, Stade any time. Really top class rugby people. But I honestly didn't meet any Saracens at the recent game which was disappointing. There were just not very many fans at all- it seemed like Ulster fans bought most of their allocation.

At the end of the day, I'm sure I could sit down and have paint with yourself or other likeminded Saracens fans and we'd have a bit of craic and at the end of the day we'd all get on and understand each other better. But that hasn't really happened because Saracens fans don't really travel so the fans don't have a chance to represent their club. Which adds to the perception that they are basically a small club being used as a vehicle for the ambitions of a few wealthy individuals as opposed to being built on the back of a real rugby community. That perception may be unfair- but it is widespread, for better or worse.

I don't really have much time for Saracens, I'm sorry if that upsets you but I'm not going to lie about how I feel and on top of that it is absolutely nothing to do with anything personal with any fan of the side, or even any player or coach. I hope that you can appreciate it comes from a deeper thing; a fundamental difference in values. But even then I was ambivalent about them until Ed Griffiths role in the ERC dispute and those classless videos. I don't care if they win the European Cup, but I wouldn't take any pleasure in it either.

If Munster make the final I'll be cheering for them, otherwise I'll have little interest. Even if you disagree with me passionately I hope you appreciate that I'm trying to be honest and fair

Thanks for that Notch. Really interesting read and I think pretty similar to what some others have said.

One question though, does the same apply to Harlequins? They have no particular region or county to associate with, are a fairly small club and have tried a few marketing gimmicks. Is it just Sarries or do other clubs have this same problem for people?

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