Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Ok following the match thread and just the forum in general, it appears now that the European cup has been sorted, it looks like Sarries are back to being the arch villians of NH rugby.

So i would like to ask this. Why do they attract so much dislike?

Its full of saffers! 5 in the whole squad(inc acadamy)
They ground share! Nope got a nice shiney new stadium
They have no support! still fill 10k most weeks(ok on here its just beshocked and myself)
Their boring! Nope second highest trys scored in AP and higest in HC
Their a small club! Everyone has to start small(unless your told your now a region)
Their new money!! Sorry they played by the rules when it was the amature days and did not pay players like some of the bigger old money clubs hence they stayed small
They have Borthwick/Ashton/Farrell....!! Yep we do, funny how people only see the bad when they are no longer your players. And im sure your side is full of lovable players! Hartley/Youngs/Care/Clarke........

So i hope that covered all the old repetative stuff. So why are they still the side no one likes?

But what of that club actually remains fa0019? It seems like Saracens got a second takeover, basically told most of their established players at the time to Foxtrot Oscar and are now a completely new side. None of that tradition is apparent because they seem so intent on outgrowing it.

Why not judge a team by what they do on-pitch?

Everything else is ultimately irrelevant, and just a reason to feel cheated or embittered.

quinsforever wrote:Why not judge a team by what they do on-pitch?

Everything else is ultimately irrelevant, and just a reason to feel cheated or embittered.

Hah! You might employ the exact same logic yourself!

As a quins fan I get "bloody" p1ssed off w comments line that...

I'm sorry but you rant and rave about the Unions constantly. Why not judge them by what their teams deliver on the pitch?

I have my own biases but I'm open about them and I never make it personal.

I missed the joke

U missed the joke

Yeah, I think I did actually.

Was a self-deprecating blood gate gag...

Yeah yeah, I got it! Eventually.

quinsforever wrote:Was a self-deprecating blood gate gag...

Its never funny when you are explaining the joke....  

Needs must I'm afraid. Don't want to upset notch too much or he might lose it and get himself sin-binned

quinsforever wrote:Needs must I'm afraid. Don't want to upset notch too much or he might lose it and get himself sin-binned

Now thats an opening for a Harlequins joke if I've ever seen one.

Notch wrote:But what of that club actually remains fa0019? It seems like Saracens got a second takeover, basically told most of their established players at the time to Foxtrot Oscar and are now a completely new side. None of that tradition is apparent because they seem so intent on outgrowing it.

Richard Hill is very much part of the club as far as I know. Think he is involved with academy and ex player Kevin Sorrell is current backs coach. So not completely gone. Seems Sarries are struggling with their perception as they don't have a distinct and obvious identity and this leads to a misconception of their actual values as a club.

A Sarries supporter walks into a bar...

"what do you know about rugby asks the bartender?"

"iits a lovely little market town in Warwickshire with an absolutely fabulous flower festival every May Day bank holiday"....

A lot of people find your team unlikeable knackered. But you're English so you should be used to that.   There always has to be a pantomime villain team. I'd just run with and use it as motivation to make the haters choke on their own disdain.

I've got such enormous respect and admiration for Richard Hill. Don't understand why Saracens don't have him front and centre.

They've upset the established order and stuck their neck out. They also have Chris Ashton.

I personally have no issues with Saracens and respect their ambition and approach. They've also improved Kelly Brown and developed Duncan Taylor, which as a Scotland fan I'm particularly grateful for (not that our moronic coach knows how good Brown is).

Fair dos Sarries, I hope you beat Toulon in the final. My dislike of Chris Ashton is eclipsed by my views of Delon Armitage.

Not all clubs are full of history and tradition, professional rugby was bound to change this, if your own club has managed to remain full of tradition and been able to hold onto it then be very thankful.

I suspect it is very tough not to see a metamorphoses amongst clubs who import players.

Most clubs in Europe do, sometimes it is the luck of the draw as the type of characters you import can vary appreciably.

Guys like Johan Muller and Ruan Pienaar embraced the community in Ulster, not every player is going to do that.

Besides what one person sees as culture another may not.

As long as there is respect for Saracens and for their achievements then dislinking them or not doesn't really matter, does it?

No, it doesn't. But I do find it quite interesting. The dislike for Saracens from Irish posters does seem quite indicative of the disconnect between how English club rugby and Irish provincial rugby see the European game at the moment and how they want it to develop in the future.

After reading this I hope Sarries do the double   

Telegraph wrote:Saracens will hand out nearly £2 million to their loyal supporters if they win a league and European double.

A few months ago Edward Griffiths, the chief executive, offered a 100 per cent refund for season-ticket holders if they renewed by April 3 and the club went on to win the double.

More than 2,500 supporters took up the offer on season tickets ranging from £320 to £1,000. The outlay could run in to several figures if Saracens win their first Heineken Cup final on May 24 and then their second Aviva Premiership title a week later. They lead the league by nine points and are assured of a home semi-final in the play-offs.

Agree completely. From most Irish posters here there is an (understandable given their system) pathological dislike of sarries. Because it is diametrically opposite provincial rugby.

But sarries are undeniably good and can on occasion play devastating rugby. Their rugby is very worthy of respect, and any bashing just cones across as sour geapes

fa0019 wrote:They actually are a genuine club, not a created franchise like those in Ireland for instance... Yes they existed but not as clubs... They were representative regions... Just like the north of England, midlands and london were when the ABs visited in the amateur era.

They weren't a heavyweight in the amateur era... They were a tier 2 london club behind quins and wasps but no others. But to say they have no history and have simply done a Toulon is a little off the mark.

Dear oh dear Fa, if you're going to lecture on history perhaps you should at least have some awareness of dates...

... and what the term franchise means.

quinsforever wrote:Agree completely. From most Irish posters here there is an (understandable given their system) pathological dislike of sarries. Because it is diametrically opposite provincial rugby.

But sarries are undeniably good and can on occasion play devastating rugby. Their rugby is very worthy of respect, and any bashing just comes across as sour grapes

Crikey QF..did you continue on the imbibing from yesterday...fixed that one for you...hope you dont have any objections to this...

Was a good effort from Munster today ME. Bit of a scrappy match as a neutral.

Sure, I wish quins were involved. But sarries really did play very well, and I really enjoyed going to to twickers for the match.

In spite of ERC screwing up the chances of filling it

I am sure Munster rugby will survive we have done for a number of years now...I tell you what if the new RCC or whatever it is can get us a home draw for the semi some effing time we wont care who is running it...could be the oompah loompahs for all we care (oh wait it is)   

Can I just categorically say (in case the moderators are watching) that I have nothing against oompah loompahs...

I am becoming a fan of sarries- I used to follow wasps when I was younger - but not religiously- now the team i respect the most is sarries- great south african and english talent

I dont have a clue as to whether Saracens is a good or bad club/franchise or not, but I do want to see them do well if only for their flanker Jacques Burger who I rate as one of the best current Rugby players in the World who isnt a Springbok, a Wallaby or an All Black.

Notch wrote:But what of that club actually remains fa0019? It seems like Saracens got a second takeover, basically told most of their established players at the time to Foxtrot Oscar and are now a completely new side. None of that tradition is apparent because they seem so intent on outgrowing it.

Where are any of the traditional clubs.... Bath are hanging on just abouts, Toulouse, Northern Transvaal, WP ... All the famed Irish, Scottish and welsh clubs are now gone playing amateur competitions.

What is the tradition of Edinburgh, Leinster, the brumbies, the ospreys even half the French sides in the top14 weren't majors at the end of the amateur era.

True they changed a lot of personnel but in terms of an english club side, given they had 8 Englishman in the starting lineup... 9 if you include Mouritz Botha then that's pretty good for an English side today, and a competitive one too.

In the old days they were seen as a good region for talent, unearthing a lot of top players... Who would then no go onto the majors such as bath, quins etc... Their team in the early 90s would have been outstanding had they been able to keep their youngsters together.

English and French club a always have had to have one eye on their league performance.... HC qualification was never a certainty unlike the Rabo... They needed results every season and for the competitive teams it meant high turnover of players, little loyalty to those with a dip in form etc. It all changes now for the Rabo, with Ireland strong at the moment it won't have an immediate impact but eventually I think it will.  Clubs will have to become more ruthless, less loyal, perhaps be seen as more professional with less heart etc.

The Great Aukster wrote:

fa0019 wrote:They actually are a genuine club, not a created franchise like those in Ireland for instance... Yes they existed but not as clubs... They were representative regions... Just like the north of England, midlands and london were when the ABs visited in the amateur era.

They weren't a heavyweight in the amateur era... They were a tier 2 london club behind quins and wasps but no others. But to say they have no history and have simply done a Toulon is a little off the mark.

Dear oh dear Fa, if you're going to lecture on history perhaps you should at least have some awareness of dates...

... and what the term franchise means.

Franchise/region, it doesn't matter.... Still wasn't a club, was still a collection of the best club players in a region, still only played games once in a blue moon in the amateur era. In The SH we call the SR carbon copies franchises even though they're owned by the unions... Just like those in Scotland, Wales, Ireland.

What dates are you talking about?

fa0019 wrote:

Notch wrote:But what of that club actually remains fa0019? It seems like Saracens got a second takeover, basically told most of their established players at the time to Foxtrot Oscar and are now a completely new side. None of that tradition is apparent because they seem so intent on outgrowing it.

Where are any of the traditional clubs.... Bath are hanging on just abouts, Toulouse, Northern Transvaal, WP ... All the famed Irish, Scottish and welsh clubs are now gone playing amateur competitions.

What is the tradition of Edinburgh, Leinster, the brumbies, the ospreys even half the French sides in the top14 weren't majors at the end of the amateur era.

True they changed a lot of personnel but in terms of an english club side, given they had 8 Englishman in the starting lineup... 9 if you include Mouritz Botha then that's pretty good for an English side today, and a competitive one too.

In the old days they were seen as a good region for talent, unearthing a lot of top players... Who would then no go onto the majors such as bath, quins etc... Their team in the early 90s would have been outstanding had they been able to keep their youngsters together.

English and French club a always have had to have one eye on their league performance.... HC qualification was never a certainty unlike the Rabo... They needed results every season and for the competitive teams it meant high turnover of players, little loyalty to those with a dip in form etc. It all changes now for the Rabo, with Ireland strong at the moment it won't have an immediate impact but eventually I think it will.  Clubs will have to become more ruthless, less loyal, perhaps be seen as more professional with less heart etc.

You really arent the most intelligent of poster FA...some kind of hybrid Saffer/Welsh not sure...You clearly havent a clue of the Irish Provinces (they arent clubs). Regions are what the Welsh and Scots made up, the Provinces have a tradition going back quite some time thank you. Secondly the Provinces are branches of the IRFU who make the majority of decisions concerning make up of the teams. On top of that the Provinces are built on the associated clubs/schools and players that come from within and are associated with them. The aim being the promotion of players and the game within Ireland with feeding the Irish team of quality players being the ultimate goal. Please inform yourself before you make such unintelligent posts.

‘The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger’

Saracens’ Community Team runs 27 community projects, has 54 partner rugby clubs and 34 partner schools and is known for its outstanding community work reaching over 70,000 young people every year. They’ve won the Aviva community Club of the Year Award 4 times in the last 8 years….

Because you're foreign FA just to give you some background. In Ireland club tournaments (that is below the provinces) were only held at a provincial level until the all Ireland league was set up in 1990. Up to then the interprovincial championship which started in 1946 was the only all,Ireland tournament and was the starting point to getting on the international team. With the advent of the all Ireland club competition in 1990 the interprovincial championship took off and was the natural level for a professional game in Ireland within the irfu structures.

on top of that the provincial sides have a long history against touring sides. Munster for example have a better record against the ABs and Aus than Ireland have.

here endith the lesson

joe.reeves.33 wrote:‘The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger’

Saracens’ Community Team runs 27 community projects, has 54 partner rugby clubs and 34 partner schools and is known for its outstanding community work reaching over 70,000 young people every year. They’ve won the Aviva community Club of the Year Award 4 times in the last 8 years….

and still only what 10 or 12 thousand supporters turned up on Saturday?

but dont you think thats a shame ME.

Sarries deserve better. I am becoming a fan and will get to a game soon.

Do you have any particular issue with sarries?

ME-109 wrote:

joe.reeves.33 wrote:‘The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger’

Saracens’ Community Team runs 27 community projects, has 54 partner rugby clubs and 34 partner schools and is known for its outstanding community work reaching over 70,000 young people every year. They’ve won the Aviva community Club of the Year Award 4 times in the last 8 years….

and still only what 10 or 12  thousand supporters turned up on Saturday?

The ERC didn't market it well though ME.   

mystiroakey wrote:but dont you think thats a shame ME.

Sarries deserve better. I am becoming a fan and will get to a game soon.

Do you have any particular issue with sarries?

not really..what I think of them is on page 1

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

joe.reeves.33 wrote:‘The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger’

Saracens’ Community Team runs 27 community projects, has 54 partner rugby clubs and 34 partner schools and is known for its outstanding community work reaching over 70,000 young people every year. They’ve won the Aviva community Club of the Year Award 4 times in the last 8 years….

and still only what 10 or 12  thousand supporters turned up on Saturday?

The ERC didn't market it well though ME.   

for a second I thought I was reading the articles of association of a charity...more rehab than st Vincent de Paul though...

joe.reeves.33 wrote:‘The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger’

Saracens’ Community Team runs 27 community projects, has 54 partner rugby clubs and 34 partner schools and is known for its outstanding community work reaching over 70,000 young people every year. They’ve won the Aviva community Club of the Year Award 4 times in the last 8 years….

Where were the 70,000 young people yesterday that they helped?

Also, they seem to be trawling around the world to stick their 'brand' on clubs. Why don't they just leave them the money and not get them to change their name?

ME-109 wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Notch wrote:But what of that club actually remains fa0019? It seems like Saracens got a second takeover, basically told most of their established players at the time to Foxtrot Oscar and are now a completely new side. None of that tradition is apparent because they seem so intent on outgrowing it.

Where are any of the traditional clubs.... Bath are hanging on just abouts, Toulouse, Northern Transvaal, WP ... All the famed Irish, Scottish and welsh clubs are now gone playing amateur competitions.

What is the tradition of Edinburgh, Leinster, the brumbies, the ospreys even half the French sides in the top14 weren't majors at the end of the amateur era.

True they changed a lot of personnel but in terms of an english club side, given they had 8 Englishman in the starting lineup... 9 if you include Mouritz Botha then that's pretty good for an English side today, and a competitive one too.

In the old days they were seen as a good region for talent, unearthing a lot of top players... Who would then no go onto the majors such as bath, quins etc... Their team in the early 90s would have been outstanding had they been able to keep their youngsters together.

English and French club a always have had to have one eye on their league performance.... HC qualification was never a certainty unlike the Rabo... They needed results every season and for the competitive teams it meant high turnover of players, little loyalty to those with a dip in form etc. It all changes now for the Rabo, with Ireland strong at the moment it won't have an immediate impact but eventually I think it will.  Clubs will have to become more ruthless, less loyal, perhaps be seen as more professional with less heart etc.

You really arent the most intelligent of poster FA...some kind of hybrid Saffer/Welsh not sure...You clearly havent a clue of the Irish Provinces (they arent clubs). Regions are what the Welsh and Scots made up, the Provinces have a tradition going back quite some time thank you. Secondly the Provinces are branches of the IRFU who make the majority of decisions concerning make up of the teams. On top of that the Provinces are built on the associated clubs/schools and players that come from within and are associated with them. The aim being the promotion of players and the game within Ireland with feeding the Irish team of quality players being the ultimate goal. Please inform yourself before you make such unintelligent posts.

There's no need to call him unintelligent. Not understanding how rugby (and other sports) operates in Ireland is no gauge to someone's intelligence.

In the pro rugby era Ireland is unique in that it has hung on to its traditions - the people would expect that.

For most of the rest of the world we have had to develop strong club teams, because those old provincial entities didn't exist.

Maybe Hound but I think he is being just a little mischievous based on the couple of posts. Kind of obvious really.

OK ME so you dont like sarries based on what went on 15 years ago.

ME-109 wrote:

joe.reeves.33 wrote:‘The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger’

Saracens’ Community Team runs 27 community projects, has 54 partner rugby clubs and 34 partner schools and is known for its outstanding community work reaching over 70,000 young people every year. They’ve won the Aviva community Club of the Year Award 4 times in the last 8 years….

and still only what 10 or 12  thousand supporters turned up on Saturday?

So that's the Saracens problem, not enough fans to playing Europe's top teams....

Sin é wrote:

joe.reeves.33 wrote:‘The heart of what the provinces are is the communities they represent. The fans are the heart and soul of what we are, who we are. The fact Saracens lack that makes them seem just like a paper tiger’

Saracens’ Community Team runs 27 community projects, has 54 partner rugby clubs and 34 partner schools and is known for its outstanding community work reaching over 70,000 young people every year. They’ve won the Aviva community Club of the Year Award 4 times in the last 8 years….

Where were the 70,000 young people yesterday that they helped?

Also, they seem to be trawling around the world to stick their 'brand' on clubs. Why don't they just leave them the money and not get them to change their name?

Why don't they just not give them the money...

Because they then would not have anything to boast about.

Did you know that 3 of our main coaches are ex Sarries players? Alex Sanderson,Paul Gustard and Kevin Sorrell. Gustard has been utilised by England too for the Saxons.

We also have the top 3 representation in the most capped AP players - Borthwick,Chuter and Vyvan - of course I know the caps are shared with other clubs like Bath,Leicester and Newcastle.

Saracens Women team have been one of the best in the country with arguably the best English player, Maggie Alphonsi at the forefront. I can't say how much linkage there is between the men's and women's teams but I have seen Maggie at Allianz Park before a Sarries (men) game.

Our academy is also strong these days.

Sin é wrote:Because they then would not have anything to boast about.

Yep, they are always boasting about that...

you would think they would be boasting about being 9 points clear in the league, getting to the HC final, having the best team they've ever had, finally having a home, but no all they bang on about is who they are giving money too and helping out....

Sin é wrote:Because they then would not have anything to boast about.

No Problems with a bit of boasting, it just doesnt gain you much, whereas having good relations with the Toa Saracens club in Tonga might just give you access to some Tongans front rowers and number 8s, if you know what I mean.

Its a case of reap what you sow.

I think when they tried to drown out the Munster supporters with their awful piped in music lacked a lot of class

i.e All these 'fans' on corporate tickets don't actually care enough to actually cheer so we'll try to drown out the actual fans with 'stand up for the Saracens'