Rugby Cup European Player of the Season shortlist

Chris Ashton
Steffon Armitage
Jonny Wilkinson
Jacques Burger
Schalk Brits

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10796801/Chris-Ashtons-brilliant-form-for-Saracens-puts-him-on-the-shortlist-for-European-Player-of-the-Season.html

Interesting that only Ashton is in a position to play for a Six Nations side.

Jeez,
Burger had a blinder the other day - one of the great days by a Flanker I can recall.
Yet, Jonny was the captain who led his team to the finals.
Brits is unique and is terrific.
Armitage is also real good
Ashton has been fine also

Hells Bells, this might be my last chance to ever pick Jonny, so I pick him. I am a sentimental sort, don't you know.

Burger or Brits. But it'll go to a player on the winning team so we'll have to wait and see.

For me, the player that typifies how hard Saracens are to break down is Jacques Burger.

But they always pick a player from the winning side and at the moment I think Toulon will win.

Has St Jonny formally announced yet whether or not he'll be playing on next season?

Interesting that only Ashton is in a position to play for a Six Nations side.

Well if the reports are anything to go by...Steffon could be back in the frame.

Wilkinson - sentimentalists choice. He won it last year and really has not been all that great this year.

Armitage - has stand out moments, the kind of player juries like.

Burger - great semi, but has not stood out for me at othert times. Perhaps because he has only featured in half Sarries HEC matches.

Brits - good semi, but subdued in two matches with toulouse.

Ashton - not popular amongst internet masses but has been consistently excellent. Broken the tries in a season record, he has also created tries. Cannot win if this is a public vote - but would be my choice.

I would think the powers that be will give this to the headline grabbing, try scoring, swallow diver who rugby fans find it so easy to dislike. I truely despise his celebratory try scoring style but there's no denying his quality this season. He also comes across in interviews as a very mild-mannered, well spoken lad which always leaves me forgiving the diving antics.
That was a bit of praise mixed with some griping for Ash the Splash but I don't think anyone else on the list has consistently performed as he has in the HC so it has got to be him.

I do like Brits though, he's a frightening menace to any opposition, exactly what you want a player to be.

LT i think your spot on with that.

If sarries win it will be Ashton. Only performance in HEC matches counts and he has already broken the try record before the final.

If Toulon win, then unless armitage has a shocker I reckon he will get it. Jonny won last year, and although he is my hero (canonisation imminent as portnoy says ) this year I think armitage has been a better player.

No, jonny has not ruled out playing again next year. Boudjellal wants him to, the fans want him to, and he's the top paid player in the league. So unless he is just feeling too banged up, I think he will extend for a year. Especially with 1/2P being injured (replacement kicker)

Shame there isn't anyone welsh or Irish on the short list - this thread is going to be far too civil and consensual without a bit of nationality to up the ante.

I thought the 1/2p vs Read IRB PoTY debate was v entertaining.

Rugby Fan wrote:Chris Ashton
Steffon Armitage
Jonny Wilkinson
Jacques Burger
Schalk Brits

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10796801/Chris-Ashtons-brilliant-form-for-Saracens-puts-him-on-the-shortlist-for-European-Player-of-the-Season.html

Interesting that only Ashton is in a position to play for a Six Nations side.

Testiment to how many mercinaries there are knocking around Euro rugby right now. Embarassing shortlist.

GunsGerms wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Chris Ashton
Steffon Armitage
Jonny Wilkinson
Jacques Burger
Schalk Brits

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10796801/Chris-Ashtons-brilliant-form-for-Saracens-puts-him-on-the-shortlist-for-European-Player-of-the-Season.html

Interesting that only Ashton is in a position to play for a Six Nations side.

Testiment to how many mercinaries there are knocking around Euro rugby right now. Embarassing shortlist.

Bit harsh given that 2 of the 4 "mercenaries" are Englishman (one who has retired and the other who is being overlooked).

I wouldn't say players are mercenaries for playing rugby outside of their nation.... for another country perhaps.

The two English players are still mercenaries though as they are both fully aware of England's policy of not picking overseas players and have gone to France with something else in mind. Both are on big wages.

Wilko was at one stage the top paid player in the world.

GunsGerms wrote:The two English players are still mercenaries though as they are both fully aware of England's policy of not picking overseas players.

Jonny retired and signed the contract before the RFU went into force. So even in retirement if you play outside your country you are a mercenary?

Bit like sexton, eh?

I would argue that Jonny Wilkinson is as far from a mercenary as you can get. He stayed loyal to a club at the possible detriment to his health. When they decided that really they no longer wanted him he refused to take the easy option of joining another English club out of loyalty to Falcons. He instead joined a club that was flirting with relegation and had seen a lot of mercenaries (people coming purely for the paycheck and not adding anything to the club) and set the standards that all other foreigh imports to Toulon have been asked to replicate. He has poured, his hear and sould, his efforts and perspiration into the club and they have moved beyond being merely a paycheck for retirees.

In fact I would not classify any of those as mercenaries. But GG has his own agenda and will keep pushing it. He will not be diverted, he will not enter in debate he will not concede one iota.

quinsforever wrote:Bit like sexton, eh?

Yes

So George North is a mercenary even though he only moved 100 odd miles within his own sovereign country and in fact the rugby nation of his birth, his ancestors and part of his childhood??? Tough crowd today.

If you are not offered a contract in your own country and to stay in employment you move abroad to another league.... are you technically a mercenary too??? Albeit a forced one.

GunsGerms wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Bit like sexton, eh?

Yes

Nacewa, Hines, Elsom, Contepomi all did marvelous things for Leinster - were they mercenaries?

How about Ross, Cullen and Jennings?


BTW I say no none of them are mercenary, certainly no more than the contenders on this Euro list.



PS From the OED:

ADJECTIVE Primarily concerned with making money at the expense of ethics
NOUN A person primarily motivated by personal gain



Of course money is relevant, this is their job after all, but there is nothing to show in the performances of these players that money was their primary motivation.

technically Richardt Strauss, Shane Howarth, Ricky Flutey, Mouritz Botha, Antonie Claassen etc are/were not Mercenaries though right.... because they played for clubs in their own adopted country?

Soon to be joined by Josh Strauss, CJ Stander, Rory Kockott and that big chap at Wasps.

Ashton for me.

Spanner Forbes - Australia
Tommy Hepburn - Botswana
Christian Stewart -Canada
Paul Scott - Canada
Alf Larad - England
Ben Andrew - England
Charlie Trignell - England
Ernest Olver - England
Ferdi Aston - England
Frank Guthrie - England
Geoff Gray - England
Henry Gorton - England
Nick Mallet - England
Steve Atherton - England
Tommy Etlinger - England
Wilfred Trenery - England
George Crampton - Ireland
Hugh Ferris - Ireland
Chris Badenhorst - Namibia
Grant Esterhuizen - Namibia
Henning van Aswegen - Namibia
Henry Tromp - Namibia
Percy Montgomery - Namibia
Sias Swart - Namibia
Broekie van Broekhuizen - Netherlands
Alex Frew - Scotland
Bob Snedden - Scotland
Edward Little - Scotland
John Allan - Scotland
Willie McEwan - Scotland
Christo Bezuidenhout - Spain
Birdie Partridge - Wales
Taffy Townsend - Wales
Corne Krige - Zambia
Adrian Garvey - Zimbabwe
Ben-Piet van Zyl - Zimbabwe
Bob Skinstad - Zimbabwe
Brian Mujati - Zimbabwe
Chris Rogers - Zimbabwe
David Smith - Zimbabwe
Des van Jaarsveld - Zimbabwe
Gary Teichmann - Zimbabwe
Ian McCallum - Zimbabwe
Ian Robertson - Zimbabwe
Joe Francis - Zimbabwe
Roy McCallum - Zimbabwe
Tendai Mtawarira - Zimbabwe
Tonderai Chavhanga - Zimbabwe

All born in one country played for another....whats your point ME?

I am guessing they are SA capped players born elsewhere. Not sure of the relevance and it is missing John Allan, Tommy's uncle.

When we're not merely using it as a pejorative term, 'mercenary' for me is defined more by the players attitude than anything else. As LT says it comes down to their motivation for moving. Some guys just want to experience a different culture when they have the chance.

At Ulster Johann Muller and Ruan Pienaar have bought in massively to the culture, they do loads of work in the community in terms of doing Q&As at churches and stuff- they are amazing ambassadors for Ulster even though they are foreign players, they do as much and more as local guys. On the other hand John Afoa wanted walk out on his contract at Ulster a year early (albeit for understandable family reasons) and he only agreed to stay if Ulster allowed him a certain number of weeks off during the season to travel back to NZ.

Pienaar and Muller have made themselves part of the fabric of Ulster, Afoa I like and he's done a good job for us but he's here for one reason which is the same reason he's off to Gloucester. I'm not being critical of Afoa, it's a shame his wife didn't settle here, but he's in for a rude awakening if he thinks Gloucester will allow him a week off to fly back to NZ five or six times during the season.

Jonny Sexton I think has massive regrets about the move, and I would blame the IRFU for screwing up his contract talks. He wanted to stay but they tried to play hardball with him and misjudged the situation. But I think in the long term it will be good for him. He just chose the wrong club. Toulouse or Clermont would have been a better fit for him. Toulouse are desperate for a signing like that, no idea why they didn't try and make that happen.

Quick make them Saints!   

ME-109

Of those born in Namibia... technically not right. Up until what 1990 Namibia was part of South Africa, granted to South Africa by the league of nations in 1919. Walvis Baai where Percy was born if I'm correct was part of SA until 1994.

Well all those players born between 1919 and 1990 (and 1994 in Walvis Baai).

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:The two English players are still mercenaries though as they are both fully aware of England's policy of not picking overseas players.

Jonny retired and signed the contract before the RFU went into force. So even in retirement if you play outside your country you are a mercenary?

Of course. A mercenary is someone who heads off to fight in a battle that isnt necessarly theirs for large wads of cash. Does he not fit the bill?

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Bit like sexton, eh?

Yes

Nacewa, Hines, Elsom, Contepomi all did marvelous things for Leinster - were they mercenaries?

How about Ross, Cullen and Jennings?

Yes. Jennings, Ross and Cullen werent though. They went to Leicester and Quins to learn their trade as they werent progressing or getting picked in Ireland. Thats different plus Leicester wages are quite low.

So if you go to improve your game then its ok right?

Hasn't JW be revitalised in France??? The sunnier climate has done him the world of good, giving him more then his old 1 week in, 4 weeks out routine in Newcastle.

fa0019 wrote:So if you go to improve your game then its ok right?

Hasn't JW be revitalised in France??? The sunnier climate has done him the world of good, giving him more then his old 1 week in, 4 weeks out routine in Newcastle.

That wasnt my point. Jenno and Cullen and Ross went to England because they werent first choice in Ireland and needed to progress and make a name for themselves. They went to Leicester and Quins so it wasnt for financial reasons. Leicester dont pay big wages.

Wilko by contrast was first choice OH in Newcastle, forfeited his international prospects to join Toulon who made him the best paid player in the world.

You can see the difference yes?

I am more than happy to call Sexton a mercenary because thats what he is.

didn't JW go before he retired?

Perhaps he went for the money, perhaps he didn't.

Lets say for argument sake he was offered a contract by Quins or Leicester or Bath for the same money, would he still be a mercenary if he still joined Toulon/Claremont/Racing?

Some guys just fancy a change... can't get much of a tan in Newcastle.... well bar the one that comes in a bottle and is sold in superdrug.

GunsGerms wrote:Wilko by contrast was first choice OH in Newcastle, forfeited his international prospects to join Toulon.

Wilkinson didn't forfeit his international prospects. He joined Toulon in 2009 and retired from Test rugby at the end of 2011 after featuring in another World Cup. One of the reasons he gave for joining Toulon in the first place was to revitalize his international career.

LondonTiger wrote:Wilkinson - sentimentalists choice. He won it last year and really has not been all that great this year.

Armitage - has stand out moments, the kind of player juries like.

Burger - great semi, but has not stood out for me at othert times. Perhaps because he has only featured in half Sarries HEC matches.

Brits - good semi, but subdued in two matches with toulouse.

Ashton - not popular amongst internet masses but has been consistently excellent. Broken the tries in a season record, he has also created tries. Cannot win if this is a public vote - but would be my choice.

Londontiger agree with most of that but I feel that Brits had a decent game vs Ulster.

Brit's form this season was patchy at the beginning but in the last few weeks his form has been electric.

Ashton would get my vote too as of now.

fa0019 wrote:didn't JW go before he retired?

Perhaps he went for the money, perhaps he didn't.

Lets say for argument sake he was offered a contract by Quins or Leicester or Bath for the same money, would he still be a mercenary if he still joined Toulon/Claremont/Racing?

Some guys just fancy a change... can't get much of a tan in Newcastle.... well bar the one that comes in a bottle and is sold in superdrug.

Yes he would still be a mercenary. He gave up his England club and international career to play in France for lots of money. He fits the bill perfectly. Just because he is a lovely person doesnt mean he isnt a mercenary.

Also I realise having a tan is really important for people like Wilko from Surry or Essex or wherever he is from so I dont blame him. Newcastle is a fun place but personally I'd rather play rugby in France so good luck to him.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Wilko by contrast was first choice OH in Newcastle, forfeited his international prospects to join Toulon.

Wilkinson didn't forfeit his international prospects. He joined Toulon in 2009 and retired from Test rugby at the end of 2011 after featuring in another World Cup. One of the reasons he gave for joining Toulon in the first place was to revitalize his international career.

That was a charity selection because the England manager was a friend of his, no?

He hardly played for England outside of that WC so it wasnt right that he was selected IMO.

I'm getting worried... so does this mean if us common folk work in a foreign country or for a foreign company we're mercenaries too! Probably paid more than the local firm... tarnished the lot of us!!!!!

fa0019 wrote:I'm getting worried... so does this mean if us common folk work in a foreign country or for a foreign company we're mercenaries too! Probably paid more than the local firm... tarnished the lot of us!!!!!

You are being silly now Fa.

GunsGerms wrote:
Wilko by contrast was first choice OH in Newcastle, forfeited his international prospects to join Toulon who made him the best paid player in the world.

In the summer of 2008 Newcastle chose to offload Wilkinson, Flood and Tait. All three had featured in the 6Ns that season (along with Jamie noon), and the management at Newcastle had moaned that it was hard to build results when you keep losing your backline.

He continued to play for England, making gaining 22 caps in the 3 seasons after he left Newcastle. by contrast he managed 21 caps between the RWC final of 2003 and Summer 2008 when he left Newcastle.

Lawrence Dallaglio writing in the Sunday times this week said he only stayed at Wasps because they were winning things and Wilko should have left Newcastle much earlier.



Edit: Apologies wilkinson still had one year on his contract. he left the following season.

sort of my point dude. If thats how you define mercenary... sure they're all mercenaries.

Surely Armitage by your own reckoning isn't. Wasn't in the England team anymore, went to a better side to improve his game much like Cullen... moved to Leicester post being capped, just like Steffon.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Wilko by contrast was first choice OH in Newcastle, forfeited his international prospects to join Toulon who made him the best paid player in the world.

In the summer of 2008 Newcastle chose to offload Wilkinson, Flood and Tait. All three had featured in the 6Ns that season (along with Jamie noon), and the management at Newcastle had moaned that it was hard to build results when you keep losing your backline.

He continued to play for England, making gaining 22 caps in the 3 seasons after he left Newcastle. by contrast he managed 21 caps between the RWC final of 2003 and Summer 2008 when he left Newcastle.

Lawrence Dallaglio writing in the Sunday times this week said he only stayed at Wasps because they were winning things and Wilko should have left Newcastle much earlier.

No doubt it was financial too..... paid big salaries and hardly had those players due them being on England duty. Better to get players not in England side but still good who cost much much less.

LondonTiger wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
Wilko by contrast was first choice OH in Newcastle, forfeited his international prospects to join Toulon who made him the best paid player in the world.

In the summer of 2008 Newcastle chose to offload Wilkinson, Flood and Tait. All three had featured in the 6Ns that season (along with Jamie noon), and the management at Newcastle had moaned that it was hard to build results when you keep losing your backline.

He continued to play for England, making gaining 22 caps in the 3 seasons after he left Newcastle. by contrast he managed 21 caps between the RWC final of 2003 and Summer 2008 when he left Newcastle.

Lawrence Dallaglio writing in the Sunday times this week said he only stayed at Wasps because they were winning things and Wilko should have left Newcastle much earlier.

Ok so he got the odd England cap but he must have known that his international career was at risk going to France. Also I agree he should have left Newcastle but he went to a team that had zero pedigree at the time for huge wads of cash.

In any case I dont see how he isnt a mercenary. Does he have French parents I dont know of?

GunsGerms wrote:That was a charity selection because the England manager was a friend of his, no?

He hardly played for England outside of that WC so it wasnt right that he was selected IMO.

Sorry, you twice claimed above that Wilkinson gave up his international career to go to France. He specifically said he went to France to revitalize his international career. That's precisely what happened.

Feel free to accuse a player of being a mercenary if he does forfeit his international career, but I can't see how you can use that line of argument for a player who evidently didn't.

Rugby Fan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:That was a charity selection because the England manager was a friend of his, no?

He hardly played for England outside of that WC so it wasnt right that he was selected IMO.

Sorry, you twice claimed above that Wilkinson gave up his international career to go to France. He specifically said he went to France to revitalize his international career. That's precisely what happened.

Feel free to accuse a player of being a mercenary if he does forfeit his international career, but I can't see how you can use that line of argument for a player who evidently didn't.

He went to a club in the south of France who at the time had zero pedigree but were willing to make him the highest paid player in the world. Wilko is the very definition of a mercenary.

It isnt tough to understand.

GunsGerms wrote:He went to a club in the south of France who at the time had zero pedigree but were willing to make him the highest paid player in the world. Wilko is the very definition of a mercenary.

It isnt tough to understand.

It is tough to understand, because it seemed that a key part of your belief Wilkinson is a mercenary was that he gave up his international career. You repeated it several times. Are you now backing off from that claim?

Rugby Fan wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:He went to a club in the south of France who at the time had zero pedigree but were willing to make him the highest paid player in the world. Wilko is the very definition of a mercenary.

It isnt tough to understand.

It is tough to understand, because it seemed that a key part of your belief Wilkinson is a mercenary was that he gave up his international career. You repeated it several times. Are you now backing off from that claim?

Read 4 posts back. He is still a mercenary.

Gunsgerms you do enjoy character assassination don't you?

I don't believe that Wilkinson went to France solely for the money. I believe he went there for numerous reasons - 1stly a change of scenery, he had been at Newcastle all of his career up till then, he probably felt that his chances of silverware at Newcastle were close to non existent, the lifestyle, to challenge himself but also to protect his fragile body. At Toulon his career has been more longevity because he's been rotated more and had a much stronger pack to support him.

I don't believe any player goes to a club solely for money though of course it will be a factor and generally an important one.

Rugby careers are short - maximising revenue is a natural thing even if it means that your loyalty is compromised.

GunsGerms wrote:Read 4 posts back. He is still a mercenary.

4 posts back doesn't say "It looks like Wilkinson didn't give up his international career after all, so he's not the mercenary I thought he was." In the absence of further clarification, I'll take it that's what you must mean.