Rugby Cup European Player of the Season shortlist

First topic message reminder :

Chris Ashton
Steffon Armitage
Jonny Wilkinson
Jacques Burger
Schalk Brits

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/european-rugby/10796801/Chris-Ashtons-brilliant-form-for-Saracens-puts-him-on-the-shortlist-for-European-Player-of-the-Season.html

Interesting that only Ashton is in a position to play for a Six Nations side.

So nowadays does he live in England or Ireland?

GG - shouldn't take it so literal.

What I meant was... its hardly evidence to post what he said post playing for Ireland as after that of course he's going to say it was Ireland only.

People change their tune, who knows what happened, only he most probably... but I certainly don't read that and say, well that the argument done and dusted.  Unless he said that way before say a couple of years before he was called up I wouldn't count it.

Ask yourself this Say you are a player yourself. You're born and raised in Ireland (for argument sake lets say your mum was from Scotland).

A journalist asks you a question.

Journalist - Guns, on the weekend you're facing Ireland (for Scotland), any issues about playing the country of your birth/youth?

What would you say????

You have 2 choices

either you could p.iss off your paymasters and never get picked again by saying

"oh well Ireland never wanted me so its fair game but its lucky I have a 2nd choice in a lesser team like Scotland"

or you could play to your new country

"not really, my family is from Scotland.. I grew up cheering the Hastings brothers and I always dreamt about putting on the blue jersey"

which would you chose? Never in a millions years to a question like that would Geoghegan have said nothing but Ireland Ireland Ireland. Anything less would be suicidial.

Alex Cuthbert said similar things pre the lions tour... he's obviously English but given Cardiff gave him his chance and he had a welsh mum he just continued with the set up.

lostinwales wrote:So nowadays does he live in England or Ireland?

Works in London I believe.

One person who has bucked the trend and admitted he supported another team in his youth though is Warburton.

Born in Cardiff to English parents. Always said he felt British and Welsh. His Da was interviewed saying Sam was a big England fan in his youth, wore the jersey and cheered on England as they won the RWC03 etc... yet in his teens something changed and his da said he lost him to Wales around that time.

Quite an honest answer, but he's that sort of guy.

fa0019 wrote:One person who has bucked the trend and admitted he supported another team in his youth though is Warburton.

Born in Cardiff to English parents. Always said he felt British and Welsh. His Da was interviewed saying Sam was a big England fan in his youth, wore the jersey and cheered on England as they won the RWC03 etc... yet in his teens something changed and his da said he lost him to Wales around that time.

Quite an honest answer, but he's that sort of guy.

Didnt Josh Lewsey say he was a Wales fan growing up? England and Wales are the same thing anyway.

Personally I dont have a problem with much if any of that. I'd rather exciting talents got a chance to play rugby on a big stage than not, especially if there is a tangible link.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:One person who has bucked the trend and admitted he supported another team in his youth though is Warburton.

Born in Cardiff to English parents. Always said he felt British and Welsh. His Da was interviewed saying Sam was a big England fan in his youth, wore the jersey and cheered on England as they won the RWC03 etc... yet in his teens something changed and his da said he lost him to Wales around that time.

Quite an honest answer, but he's that sort of guy.

Didnt Josh Lewsey say he was a Wales fan growing up? England and Wales are the same thing anyway.

Yeah I've heard that from someone I know who went to uni with him too... apparently he was Mr Wales growing up i.e. that's all he ever dreamed of doing... playing rugby for Wales.

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:One person who has bucked the trend and admitted he supported another team in his youth though is Warburton.

Born in Cardiff to English parents. Always said he felt British and Welsh. His Da was interviewed saying Sam was a big England fan in his youth, wore the jersey and cheered on England as they won the RWC03 etc... yet in his teens something changed and his da said he lost him to Wales around that time.

Quite an honest answer, but he's that sort of guy.

Didnt Josh Lewsey say he was a Wales fan growing up? England and Wales are the same thing anyway.

Have to save that quote from you for the next Wales vs. England match...

Yes its interesting.....

Apparently Brad Thorn dreamt of playing for the All Backs aswell. Then why play league for arch rivals australia?  

fa0019 wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

fa0019 wrote:One person who has bucked the trend and admitted he supported another team in his youth though is Warburton.

Born in Cardiff to English parents. Always said he felt British and Welsh. His Da was interviewed saying Sam was a big England fan in his youth, wore the jersey and cheered on England as they won the RWC03 etc... yet in his teens something changed and his da said he lost him to Wales around that time.

Quite an honest answer, but he's that sort of guy.

Didnt Josh Lewsey say he was a Wales fan growing up? England and Wales are the same thing anyway.

Have to save that quote from you for the next Wales vs. England match...

Feel free.

Next time maybe Tony Copsey will reveal his tattoo where the sun don't shine.

Ah well, in the amateur days the philosophy was "anything goes".

Clive Woodward even went for a trial with the wallabies once he left England and emigrated for business reasons post his England test career.

As this thread seems to have been diverted, here's a question for everyone.

Why do ulster players always choose to play for Ireland an not England?

Not winning at all. Genuinely curious.

quinsforever wrote:As this thread seems to have been diverted, here's a question for everyone.

Why do ulster players always choose to play for Ireland an not England?

Not winning at all. Genuinely curious.

Eh? The same reason that the Scots or Welsh don't declare for England,they aren't English so why would they want to play for England and even if they did want to they aren't qualified to play for England.

But Northern Irish are presumably closer to English, no? The Protestants anyway. Again, I'm not trying to win anyone up. As an outsider it has always surprised me how cohesive the Irish team is with Eire and NI representation. Or is the NI representation mostly catholic?

quinsforever wrote:But Northern Irish are presumably closer to English, no? The Protestants anyway. Again, I'm not trying to win anyone up. As an outsider it has always surprised me how cohesive the Irish team is with Eire and NI representation. Or is the NI representation mostly catholic?

Don't ask,q.
Just don't ask.
Or you'll get another debate on the colour of the field of the flag that the red cross of Ulster stands on.

quinsforever wrote:But Northern Irish are presumably closer to English, no? The Protestants anyway. Again, I'm not trying to win anyone up. As an outsider it has always surprised me how cohesive the Irish team is with Eire and NI representation. Or is the NI representation mostly catholic?

Nope far from it they just get on with it.They still couldn't play for England even if they wanted to since they aren't qualified just like the Scots and Welsh aren't and they're U.K. citizens too.

Most major team sports in Ireland are run on an All Ireland basis,soccer being the obvious exception.

Reason I ask is my mate from school who is Northern Irish, represented Ireland at Uni rugby league. And his dad was a senior bod in the ulster police.

My conclusion has always been that sport transcends many traditional rivalries. But if a NI Protestant player could equally choose Ireland or England which would it be? If Ireland, then that is good news indeed.

Fair enough.

Good to see such a stupid question get the silence it deserves.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

quinsforever wrote:But Northern Irish are presumably closer to English, no? The Protestants anyway. Again, I'm not trying to win anyone up. As an outsider it has always surprised me how cohesive the Irish team is with Eire and NI representation. Or is the NI representation mostly catholic?

Don't ask,q.
Just don't ask.
Or you'll get another debate on the colour of the field of the flag that the red cross of Ulster stands on.

That didn't pan out as expected PC....

GunsGerms wrote:Good to see such a stupid question get the silence it deserves.

unfortunately not complete silence though. just heard the sound of someone trying to talk while their gob is full of...

quinsforever wrote:Reason I ask is my mate from school who is Northern Irish, represented Ireland at Uni rugby league. And his dad was a senior bod in the ulster police.

My conclusion has always been that sport transcends many traditional rivalries. But if a NI Protestant player could equally choose Ireland or England which would it be? If Ireland, then that is good news indeed.

Hah! That is absolutely priceless. You think people might rather play for England?! 

If there was a British team there might be an issue- most Protestants in Northern Ireland are descended from Scottish settlers who were evicted from their land in Scotland and re-settled in Ulster by English landlords. Representing Britain would be one thing to people here, representing England means something completely different.

It's very important not to conflate Britishness with Englishness. Some people in England think they are two interchangeable terms but for unionists in the other three countries that make up the United Kingdom thats most definitely not the case. When it comes to competitive sport and international rivalries the English are no more 'popular' in Northern Ireland than they are in Scotland and Wales.There's no love lost- in the most die-hard unionist part of Protestant East Belfast there's a mural dedicated to the one time we recently beat the English at football which depict the likes of Ashley Cole looking gormless with some considerable delight. After that game BBC1 NI unofficially changed their name to BBC1-0 NI for a week. Every time the graphic came up with ONE in the right-hand corner of the screen in green, there was an English flag with NIL superimposed on it on the left...

The rugby community in Ulster has undergone a massive demographic change in the last 20 years to the point where its actually getting representative of the whole community, it's no longer fair to say it's a game for Protestants when so many Catholics are taking up playing and supporting the game at every level, but even before that began every rugby player in NI dreamed of representing Ireland. So many Ulster Protestants have worn that jersey with incredible pride and distinction. Andrew Trimble, who is probably as Protestant as you can get* was asked straight out if sevens becomes an Olympic Sport (where the UK competes as one nation, not 3 or 4) who would he hypothetically play for. He said Ireland, not Britain, because thats who you play with growing up. After trying your best to beat English, Scottish and Welsh teams every level from schoolboy on it would feel totally wrong and bizarre to switch sides. Lots of Protestant athletes from Northern Ireland currently represent Ireland in a variety of Olympic sports, as well as rugby, and sports like Golf, Hockey and Boxing are all Ireland too.

*(btw I have never heard anyone but an outsider refer to an Ulster rugby player on the basis of their religion. I don't know what religion all of the Ulster players are)

Quins, the fact that someone thinks people in Northern Ireland would actually want to play for England has actually made my day.   

My family is as Protestant as it gets- I must have been giving off a lot of pro-English vibes lately to give you the wrong impression. Apologies  

In the Olympics I mainly support Northern Irish athletes, regardless of whether they are competing for Ireland or the UK, and Irish athletes but I support the British ones as well. But I don't think I would ever support a British Rugby Team in the Olympics (the British and Irish Lions are a different story)

Rugby is like Boxing- it's an all island sport.

Is religion and politics suitable for a rugby based discussion?

Scrumpy wrote:Is religion and politics suitable for a rugby based discussion?  

Context, context, context.

But you're right, we really should be careful that it doesn't get away from rugby.

Priceless.

Notch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Reason I ask is my mate from school who is Northern Irish, represented Ireland at Uni rugby league. And his dad was a senior bod in the ulster police.

My conclusion has always been that sport transcends many traditional rivalries. But if a NI Protestant player could equally choose Ireland or England which would it be? If Ireland, then that is good news indeed.

Hah! That is absolutely priceless. You think people might rather play for England?! 

If there was a British team there might be an issue- most Protestants in Northern Ireland are descended from Scottish settlers who were evicted from their land in Scotland and re-settled in Ulster by English landlords. Representing Britain would be one thing to people here, representing England means something completely different.

It's very important not to conflate Britishness with Englishness. Some people in England think they are two interchangeable terms but for unionists in the other three countries that make up the United Kingdom thats most definitely not the case. When it comes to competitive sport and international rivalries the English are no more 'popular' in Northern Ireland than they are in Scotland and Wales.There's no love lost- in the most die-hard unionist part of Protestant East Belfast there's a mural dedicated to the one time we recently beat the English at football which depict the likes of Ashley Cole looking gormless with some considerable delight. After that game BBC1 NI unofficially changed their name to BBC1-0 NI for a week. Every time the graphic came up with ONE in the right-hand corner of the screen in green, there was an English flag with NIL superimposed on it on the left...

The rugby community in Ulster has undergone a massive demographic change in the last 20 years to the point where its actually getting representative of the whole community, it's no longer fair to say it's a game for Protestants when so many Catholics are taking up playing and supporting the game at every level, but even before that began every rugby player in NI dreamed of representing Ireland. So many Ulster Protestants have worn that jersey with incredible pride and distinction. Andrew Trimble, who is probably as Protestant as you can get* was asked straight out if sevens becomes an Olympic Sport (where the UK competes as one nation, not 3 or 4) who would he hypothetically play for. He said Ireland, not Britain, because thats who you play with growing up. After trying your best to beat English, Scottish and Welsh teams every level from schoolboy on it would feel totally wrong and bizarre to switch sides. Lots of Protestant athletes from Northern Ireland currently represent Ireland in a variety of Olympic sports, as well as rugby, and sports like Golf, Hockey and Boxing are all Ireland too.

*(btw I have never heard anyone but an outsider refer to an Ulster rugby player on the basis of their religion. I don't know what religion all of the Ulster players are)

Nice to see someone like Tommy Bowe with a Gaelic football background, from Ulster albeit the ROI part of Ulster seemingly just as much an Ulsterman as anyone else as you would expect.

Scrumpy wrote:Is religion and politics suitable for a rugby based discussion?  

Agree.

If you're a mod or Irish it's not a problem to go completely off topic.

None of these comments are anything to do with the topic of this thread.

Do as I say, not as I do!

With great power, comes great responsibility.

Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Excuse me, an English poster asked a question about rugby in Northern Ireland and I answered it. You really are both utterly pathetic.

I said on the other thread that comments to do with politics in the context of getting a stadium built were permitted. Comments to do with politics that have nothing to do with rugby are not permitted now or ever.

Scrumpy wrote:Do as I say, not as I do!

With great power, comes great responsibility.

If you have a problem with a post report it and let the other moderators decide what needs to happen.

Hammerofthunor yes you are right. I apologise.

Who should get it? Tommy Bowe perhaps? Gunsgerms mentioned him.

Definitely not Jonny Wilkinson, you know he's a mercenary right?

HammerofThunor wrote:Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Only there are actually no Irish in the shortlist.

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Only there are actually no Irish in the shortlist.

Nor should there be, the award is traditionally given to a player from the winning team

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Only there are actually no Irish in the shortlist.

And that is clearly wrong and worth debate.

I don't see any difference or (if I'm honest) anything wrong with what you have done and what others did on the other topic, yet you removed their posts saying it wasn't allowed.

It was relevant to the topic it wasn't offensive in any way and it was about rugby funnily enough.

It was not about rugby it was about politics and the decision has been made- so either go to a site admin or give over.

Feedback about moderation is more appropriately posted here; https://www.606v2.com/f1-introduce-yourself-and-feedback

or just be consistent.

lostinwales that's irrelevant.

Wilkinson is a mercenary, Ashton is an overrated, swallow diving mercenary, Burger is a mercenary, Steffon Armitage is a mercenary and of course Brits is a mercenary.

The European player of the season should surely go to a non mercenary - preferably from the best sides in Europe - of course the Irish ones.

Short list should really be:

BOD - just because.....
Trimble - he had a great 6 nations, who cares if it's a different competition.
O Connell - he's Mr Munster, of course he must be there.
Mahony - might be injured but he's one of the best flankers on the planet.
Murray - again a key Munster man. Munster -performed best of the Irish sides.

Notch wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Only there are actually no Irish in the shortlist.

Nor should there be, the award is traditionally given to a player from the winning team

Which in itself is as stupid as the MOTM going to a player on the winning team. Of course these things are completely stupid and IMO the antithesis of what rugby is supposed to be. The only benefit is for it to be used by children arguing of who's metaphorical dad is bigger (I went for the child friendly rather than adult metaphor)

beshocked wrote:lostinwales that's irrelevant.

Wilkinson is a mercenary, Ashton is an overrated, swallow diving mercenary, Burger is a mercenary, Steffon Armitage is a mercenary and of course Brits is a mercenary.

The European player of the season should surely go to a non mercenary - preferably from the best sides in Europe - of course the Irish ones.

Short list should really be:

BOD - just because.....
Trimble - he had a great 6 nations, who cares if it's a different competition.
O Connell - he's Mr Munster, of course he must be there.
Mahony - might be injured but he's one of the best flankers on the planet.
Murray - again a key Munster man. Munster -performed best of the Irish sides.

  

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Only there are actually no Irish in the shortlist.

Nor should there be, the award is traditionally given to a player from the winning team

Which in itself is as stupid as the MOTM going to a player on the winning team. Of course these things are completely stupid and IMO the antithesis of what rugby is supposed to be. The only benefit is for it to be used by children arguing of who's metaphorical dad is bigger (I went for the child friendly rather than adult metaphor)

I agree it's silly; a player could be in unbelievable form as an individual and his team loses all six games- but at least it isn't publicly voted for.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Only there are actually no Irish in the shortlist.

Nor should there be, the award is traditionally given to a player from the winning team

Which in itself is as stupid as the MOTM going to a player on the winning team. Of course these things are completely stupid and IMO the antithesis of what rugby is supposed to be. The only benefit is for it to be used by children arguing of who's metaphorical dad is bigger (I went for the child friendly rather than adult metaphor)

Agree completely, Man of the Match in the ultimate team game is a contradiction and really makes no sense. As is a Man of the Season or some such thing.

What does a MOTM usually receive for being so honoured? A bottle of cheap booze and a pack of condoms? Not exactly inspiring.

Notch wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

Notch wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:Of course they're on topic. It's about the European player of the year and the Irish are the best in Europe. Ergo....lobster.

Only there are actually no Irish in the shortlist.

Nor should there be, the award is traditionally given to a player from the winning team

Which in itself is as stupid as the MOTM going to a player on the winning team. Of course these things are completely stupid and IMO the antithesis of what rugby is supposed to be. The only benefit is for it to be used by children arguing of who's metaphorical dad is bigger (I went for the child friendly rather than adult metaphor)

I agree it's silly; a player could be in unbelievable form as an individual and his team loses all six games- but at least it isn't publicly voted for.

Who is it? Stuart Barnes?   

doctor grey I disagree. Sometimes it's unfair if Player X or Y gets overlooked for an award but I do like the concept of man of the match/man of the season.

It's especially a confidence boost if Player X or Y has been struggling for form.

Example of this is Ashton. He's been criticised a lot, some of it warranted, some of it not - in the HC this season he's answered his critics with some strong performances.

Also it's nice if fans vote for you as player for the season or the peers decide you deserve that award.

But he can only what he does because he has other guys to play off, other guys to make the space, to tire the opposition, to make the territory, to keep the other team out, etc.

Personally I'd rather people held off from ridiculous criticism rather have a poor award to make up for it.

The only one has any real weight IMO is players player awards (although the wonder of Twitter shows players can be just as blind and stupid as the general public, if not quite to the level of media broadcasters)

Hammerofthunor but equally you could say Player X might be struggling because he's not getting much service from his team mates etc.

Certain gameplans/styles make some players look more prominent.

E.g. Saracens having to make so many tackles puts Burger in the spotlight.

Some teams give better service to their wingers than others - I would say the two best at utilising wingers in the AP have been Wasps and Saracens. Compare that to England who have been using theirs as extra full backs.

Equally you could say that Wasps and Saracens have been using their wingers more because they have some of the best in the league. Why not try a grubber through when you are confident your wingers might snaffle a try?

Wilkinson gains more prominence for Toulon because of the way Toulon play. 21 points vs Munster.

Yeah, you can. That's why I don't like things like this.

Edit: just to point out I'm not saying Ashton (for example) is only playing well because he's in a good team. I just don't like singling him out, as I feel it does a disservice to the rest of the team (which I think is kind of what Burger said after the Clermont game)