New Zealand v England 3rd test & the 2nd test review

First topic message reminder :

1000 posts and the 2nd test thread is blocked time to move onto the 3rd test in Hamilton.

What are England's chances of securing a win?
Could NZ win convincingly?
Will it be close again?
Who will play?
How much will the referee affect the game?

Let the banter begin..................

Oh, and feel free to discuss test's 1 and 2.

milkyboy wrote:... i like him at scrum half. Who needs 10 man rugby when you can have 9 man rugby. Stick to our core values i say.

Would certainly end the debate on what the scrum half would do any time they got the ball.

Nick Easter is very good value again.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_9352750,00.html

yeh, he talks a lot of sense, good read.

and with his kicking, wilson can play 1 and 10...

Just needs to emulate Dunning now by going for a drop goal to end advantage and end up losing the opportunity to go for a try.

quinsforever wrote:and with his kicking, wilson can play 1 and 10...

With his 100% touch finding record, i think he's way too qualified for the england 10 jersey.... and it probably would be a tight fit anyway.

They're all tight fitting jerseys nowadays, even if you're a tub of lard.

Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Easter is very good value again.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_9352750,00.html

"The England number 8 . . ." - hopefully never, ever again.

jelly wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Easter is very good value again.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16016_9352750,00.html

"The England number 8 . . ."  - hopefully never, ever again.

Quite probably never, ever again. But have you seen his club form since he was dropped? He's outplayed a lot of top class back rows in the last 2 years, and only seems to be getting better. I would be very happy to see him drafted in if a last-minute injury replacement were needed.

AB side named:

ALL BLACKS: Ben Smith, Cory Jane, Malakai Fekitoa, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea, Aaron Cruden, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Jerome Kaino, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Keven Mealamu, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Patrick Tuipulotu, Liam Messam, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, Ryan Crotty.

For kiwis this should cause a bit of excitement with Fekitoas rise up the ranks, no one would have picked this 12 months ago. Very exciting prospect and this ones all about handling the pressure. Has it all- powerful runner and a welcome back to one of the true spot tacklers... 3.04 on Conrad:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMcE064fskc

Big shoes to fill but easily the biggest new talent of 2014 here.

Plus the old guard McCaw, Read and Kaino finally start after the World cup days.

Cruden stays on at home so should go better as time goes on.

England will do will to stay with this side again as its likely the ABs, with another week to hone their combinations will get stronger again. Another great match coming up...its been a fascinating series.

We hear so much about Conrad Smith holding that backline together, and being a key part of the defence. Let's hope that's correct and NZ fall apart with out him   

Oh and good to see Read back for this one, he's a great player to watch.

yeah malakai and Nonu are more similar so somewhat of a risk but its glass half full stuff and nothing we can do with Conrad out. He'll get some rest while his thumb mends and be just right for the most of the RC.

Looking forward to Malakais big hits, being one of those rare types that specialise in big spot tackles. Worth watching him for that alone.

Perfect scenario to start him now the side has settled into its groove and hes got his run on debut out of the way.

Fekitoa…born Tonga, visited NZ in 2009 and guess what, he won a scholarship to play rugby there!! Isn't that nice, i won a stuffed kiwi bird.   

mmmm... envy...mmmm...the dark side has a hold of this one...mmmm.

Taylorman wrote:mmmm... envy...mmmm...the dark side has a hold of this one...mmmm.

No, the dark side has a hold of the Tongan born centre rebadged a New Zealander.  

Taylorman wrote:AB side named:

ALL BLACKS: Ben Smith, Cory Jane, Malakai Fekitoa, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea, Aaron Cruden, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Jerome Kaino, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Dane Coles, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Keven Mealamu, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Patrick Tuipulotu, Liam Messam, TJ Perenara, Beauden Barrett, Ryan Crotty.

Damn, Read & Kaino at 6 & 8 again. Get a decent 7 who makes his tackles and you could have the makings of a decent backrow there t-man  . In all seriousness it's absolute class and as a rugby fan I'm well pleased it's back together. As an England fan I'm disappointed it didn't happen until this years RC started but what can you do.....

Think Barrett will be feeling a bit hard done by and for me he has a right to be - he's looked better than Cruden so far. I know AC is a top player when fully match sharp and at the top of his game but Barrett's form so far makes me think he should have got this start. Elsewhere Vito is unlucky to drop out of the 23 but with the 4 backrow players chosen in the 23 then it's understandable.

Not seen much S15 in recent years, is Ryan Crotty any good?

He's the typical player that Canty specialise in now: solid but lacking anything that stands up and makes you take note like Fekitoa. Still he scored the try against Ireland and went round 5cm more to make the kick easier on the second attempt so he's another Canty legend in my book.

A very solid side for NZ Cruden as the starting 10 prior to injury with DC out keeps his place
no surprise there.Read starting with Fekitoa may be a risky option but bench cover is there.
Lock injury on the other hand a bit of a disaster area methinks every run comes to an end
maybe Saturday.
Maybe 4Ns first up still it seems it doesn't matter according to some posters here its just
a friendly?not like a RWC game is it?
ASK those playing that question NZ if they equal Lochores 1965-69 or Malletts 1997-8
17game record or England if they win.

Its a record that Hansens having his 3rd go at in 4 years in one way or another- first losing to Oz in Hong Kong on the 16th, then drawing with Oz on the 17th. If we can get through this weekend how fitting that we have Oz on the 18th!

Good side, Crudens back at home and its another week of play for him. Can't wait to see the back 3 together again and heres hoping Fekitoa handles the pressure. Huge promise.

Team named

England team to face New Zealand

Third Test, Steinlager Series, Waikato Stadium, Saturday, June 21, 7.35pm NZST/8.35am BST

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins, 28 caps)
14 Chris Ashton (Saracens, 38 caps)
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 24 caps)
12 Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
11 Marland Yarde (London Irish, 4 caps)
10 Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 4 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 37 caps)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 21 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints, 56 caps)
3 David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 36 caps)
4 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 31 caps)
5 Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 21 caps)
6 Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 29 caps)
7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, captain, 27 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (Saracens, 9 caps)

Replacements:

16 Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 7 caps)
17 Matt Mullan (London Wasps, 4 caps)
18 Kieran Brookes (Newcastle Falcons, 1 cap)
19 Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 21 caps)
20 Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 22 caps)
21 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 17 caps)
22 Danny Cipriani (Sale Sharks, 8 caps)
23 Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)

Predictable changes, Care's shoulder apparently didn't recover.

Cool. Good side. Pity it took SL (and England) 3 tests to find out what he really had in his squad and that club final debacle has effectively ruined this for them.

Going to be a cracker and for the series pity its not all on the line...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:He's the typical player that Canty specialise in now: solid but lacking anything that stands up and makes you take note like Fekitoa. Still he scored the try against Ireland and went round 5cm more to make the kick easier on the second attempt so he's another Canty legend in my book.

Thanks  . Is he a center/wing/back 3 or just general utility?

Glad to see Eastmond starting, didn't expect it so a bonus for me. With the players available it is the backline that I wanted to see. Bit disappointed with the second row combo, think both players go better when paired with more grunt in the engine room but hopefully I'm wrong. Although not great last week it's a shame about Care, on form he really ups the tempo in attack. Hopefully Youngs steps up and goes well like he has in the past.

I think Ben Youngs frustrates me more than any other England player - he's got the tools to be a more than decent international 9 but for whatever reason it doesn't come off for him at this level and hasn't for a while now. Really hope it clicks again for him at this level, having Care and him on top form would be a real plus for England going into the World Cup.

Scratch wrote:Fekitoa…born Tonga, visited NZ in 2009 and guess what, he won a  scholarship to play rugby there!! Isn't that nice, i won a stuffed kiwi bird.   

No. That cant be right Scratch.

Fekitoa plays for the Highlanders. Born and bred in Dunedin. Just like Ben Smith.  

Gunner wrote:

Scratch wrote:Fekitoa…born Tonga, visited NZ in 2009 and guess what, he won a  scholarship to play rugby there!! Isn't that nice, i won a stuffed kiwi bird.   

No. That cant be right Scratch.

Fekitoa plays for the Highlanders. Born and bred in Dunedin. Just like Ben Smith.  

I think you'll find a number of us, whilst liking him as a player, think he should be playing for Tonga. A bit of a Barrett (SA), Tuilagi (Samoa), Vunipola (Wales), Hartley (NZ), Paterson (NZ) really (grew up playing rugby somewhere else, but ended up here), without any dynastic ties of course. Hopefully the IRB will change the eligibility rules at some point.

Theres no point Fekitoa trying to be a Conrad so if they play to their strengths these two should be a handful on Saturday, particularly in the contact area. The battle of the midfield should be worth it for that alone.

And with Read close by I'm expecting some real damage, the side with just the 2 or 3 changes a distant one from the first two in terms of impact.

Fekitoa's timing and natural ability combined with the experience and support he has around him will have everyone watching him, so the pressure is huge.

Hopefully we get the best of our guys this round so going for AB's by 18.

Hansen on Read:

"About two days ago he asked me 'what am I going to hear when you read the team out?'. I said 'K Read (Canterbury), No 8', and he just cracked a big smile. Since then he's just gone [gangbusters]. He trained fantastically on Tuesday, and has been so bouncing around the hotel, so excited."

Good to see. Looks like they've taken the right level of precaution with him as well, just hope he wasnt bouncing around on his head.

Not sure. I think it depends on the pace of the game again. I'd add Fekitoa and Read to the mix as well. If Fekitoa has a mare we're in trouble. Hopefully Read's back to his best. I'm not sure the AB's have fired for more than 20-30 minutes so far this series. You get the feeling their pretty disappointed with their performances. England pose a real threat yet again. A big question for them is can they lift themselves one last time this season.

Dissapointed that Care and Farrel were both now apparently rushed back in for the second test when not fit. Hopefully there's no long term damage done.

Otherwise that's the team that should have started last week, really looking forward to seeing how they stand up to a New Zealand side that'll be desperate to lay down a marker before the RC. Crawling past England is not what they invisioned for their warm up to the big comp.

Only question mark is the second row combo with Parling and Lawes together the scrum may get worse now. But at least with Parling and Wood doing all the "unseen work" we should own the collision area right??   

yappysnap wrote:Dissapointed that Care and Farrel were both now apparently rushed back in for the second test when not fit. Hopefully there's no long term damage done.

Otherwise that's the team that should have started last week, really looking forward to seeing how they stand up to a New Zealand side that'll be desperate to lay down a marker before the RC. Crawling past England is not what they invisioned for their warm up to the big comp.

Only question mark is the second row combo with Parling and Lawes together the scrum may get worse now. But at least with Parling and Wood doing all the "unseen work" we should own the collision area right??   

The public expected more, and I'm sure they want more. But I think the Ab's have their own issues at the moment. Added to fact that this is more, and more looking like a very good English side. I expect that if either side doesn't lift their game this week, they'll lose.

blackcanelion wrote:Not sure. I think it depends on the pace of the game again. I'd add Fekitoa and Read to the mix as well. If Fekitoa has a mare we're in trouble. Hopefully Read's back to his best. I'm not sure the AB's have fired for more than 20-30 minutes so far this series. You get the feeling their pretty disappointed with their performances. England pose a real threat yet again. A big question for them is can they lift themselves one last time this season.

Its certainly a tough position to start from with only a year at sxv, but this is what I love about watching the AB's. How they bring them in to the enviroment and then put them under pressure with bold selections like this.

I think theres more pressure on SL to get a result. 3-0 is 3-0 and a long way to come for that, both physically and mentally. Many key players havnt stood up for various reasons but there are some who seem to have exceeded expectations, so a bit of a mixture.

I'm interested whether that belief in being able to beat the ABs is as strong as it was pre tour. It will need to be this weekend because the AB's are slowly improving and an end of season test to salvage a whitewash probably wasnt on the menu a couple of months ago.

I thnk the issue is with 13. I think Conrad covers a lot of other peoples mistakes on defence and distributes well on attack. Nonu will have to step up on both counts.

Whilst I think that allowing for injuries/form/guys looking knackered, this is probably the best side we can put out at the moment, I fear for them.

I had more confidence than most that we'd do well this tour, but I think the ABs will be stronger this week and our pack looked knackered last week. If we don't get the good start we've had for the last two weeks to give us something to hold onto, I fear a bit of a hiding.

Probably worrying over nothing  

yes he will. The two also need to work out whats best for the combination. Fekitoa is only replacing Smith in number, not in ability or style.

I'm guessing Nonu and Fekitoa will adopt a physicall abraisve style, ganging up on Tuilagi or otherwise on defence, and drawing in the defence on attack to either bust through or open it up elsewhere.

Its still about creating and find space and thats where Read and Ben Smith add dimension to this side. I think we're ok, if only because we do have some momentum on the back of last weeks efforts.

Good looking England side and may (Care notwithstanding) even be England's best. If they play well, will SL actually stick with this team for the Autumn Internationals? Anything's possible.

Possibly, though I would have still thought Lawes and Launchbury will end up in the second row and I still can't see him changing Care and Farrell if both are fit. The front row will be interesting when Cole and Corbisiero come back but that is looking like a real position of strength in the squad now.

What is certain is that SL is building not only a team but a squad that is good enough to compete with the best in the world, of which only Parling is not under 30 years old, the future is looking really bright. There are obviously still things to work on but considering the age of the squad, things are looking good, not only for next year but for 2019 as well.

We may even get to see the 10,12,13 combo I am curious about, Cips, Burrell and Manu for 20 minutes of so.

taylorman wrote:
I'm guessing Nonu and Fekitoa will adopt a physicall abraisve style, ganging up on Tuilagi or otherwise on defence

I hope so. That'll leave lots of space for Eastmond and another of his searing breaks.

Taylorman wrote:Cool. Good side. Pity it took SL (and England) 3 tests to find out what he really had in his squad and that club final debacle has effectively ruined this for them.

Going to be a cracker and for the series pity its not all on the line...

Lets not start about the club final issue TM...everyones been through the blame thread.

SL knows what he has in the squad...the point is he wanted to see how some of them coped in this environment and put to bed a few experiements he wanted to try..ie Manu on the Wing.

As for the team...my only hope is that, that second row of ours isnt too lightweight with Lawes and Parling together.

Lawes is the number one, but id maybe have prefered to see Slater start in there for a bit more balast.

Glad to see Hartley back...and i hope he's pulling trees to get on that pitch because his 6n form was simply outstanding and a notch up from Webber.

I'd love to see us get a W from this one.

For me its about looking for the potential weaknesses in the England side now that the AB's have had some time together.

Given that, I think Burns is a risk for England. Don't know a lot about him but NH 10's dont have have the best of times in NZ historically and he has little experience at this level. Had a good first test when the ABs were having trouble with getting their own game together let alone having time to pressure Burns. This time its different. The ABs would have been expecting to play Farrell this tour so theyll have done some homework on Burns instead this week.

A 7 test total at 10 and 12 is definitely an area the ABs will pressure, particularly with the Read, Mcaw, Kaino combo lurking. Youngs was seen unanimously on these boards as inferior to Care so it may not bide well for the England 9,10,12 combination. I think the AB's will target them, the resulting pressure ending up with Tuilagi and those further out on defence and certainly on attack.

Ah i didnt see Youngs at 9. Thats a big blow.
 
He needs to really be on top of his game or he may find himself out of the squad for quite a while.

And yes TM whilst 10 and 12 are inexperienced, that is the way i think most England fans want our midfield to go...more creativity over sheer brute force.
Having that at 13 with Manu is a blessing aswell.

I can accept a loss if this midfield play well and show us that in the future we will have a far more attacking threat.

So is this the test that NZ run riot in your opinion Taylor? Predictions?

I keep changing my mind depending on my mood. Currently optimistic so I'm going for an England victory by 7 points thus taking the series on points difference. This will be followed by some saying that NZ weren't really trying as they'd already won the first 2 tests

England did very well in the first two tests - particularly after having to navigate the stupid clash with the end of season games. There were chances in both tests for England to win but I think the 3rd quarter in the second test was the best NZ performance I've seen for some time.

I think NZ will improve further, whereas England have probably peaked already on this tour, so I can't see beyond a NZ victory. The 9,10,12 axis does not look strong enough to win, although this looks to me to be the strongest English pack yet. I hope England do come out on top as I think SL deserves one win on the tour. At this time, England look to be the only NH team developing fast enough to have a crack at the WC.

I picked NZ by 18. I think NZ have got better and England have got worse, in general. Neither has been great but England played their best in the first and werent helped by any of the newcomers in the second.

The 9, 10, 12 combo concerns me greatly for the English. Youngs who played poorly first test and two relative newbies at 10 and 12 despite the ex League career, Eastmonds not faced anything like the ABs in test rugby, and here is thrown in at the deep end, playing his first test start in the third..

Like I said above, I think this area is likely to be Englands downfall. Under pressure theyll unload that pressure out onto Tuilagi and his outsides by way of scrappy, back foot ball on attack and holes in defence on attack. And that sort of pressure on end of season tired bods, might be a match too far for them.

Should England then or instead decide to have Burns control it more at 10, I dont think he has the capability to take that on yet - versus the AB's that is.

So thats my pick- 18 or over, and Englands insides backs to prove their undoing. On the AB side, I think the time together to suck all this in over the last two weeks, Read back..we're ok for this one.

TM, Eastmond played in the first test...  

ok...I couldnt remember if he started... I'd never heard of him before this tour. Did he play the 6N?

Was going to point that out, I know TM said he had troubling recollecting certain matches from the past but that is a bit worrying!

jelly wrote:Was going to point that out, I know TM said he had troubling recollecting certain matches from the past but that is a bit worrying!

to be honest I was too busy looking at all our players dropping balls all the time to worry about new English players.

Its a very  inexperienced 10-12 combination who played well in the first test, we have to hope they can repeat it. If they get to burns it will be a tough day for england, but its all about the pack and the breakdown for me. Hopefully the fresh legs coming in will stiffen things up a bit, but they were really blowing when the blacks ran riot last week. For england to hold their own in this game we need a pack that's solid in the set piece and gets us on the front foot. Can this one do that for 80 mins?

Twelvetrees was the 12 in the 6n TM.
 
Our 10-12 is inexperienced yes but they have quality. And they have a monster oustide them in Manu who will interchange and have Wood, Robshaw and Billy to watch the other side.
 
Hopefully we will be ok.
 
To be fair the way the AB's ran through our midfield last week, which supposedly had our BIG defenders on the pitch...its no loss putting in our supposed weaker defenders who have far more offensively!