Guinness Pro 12. Pathetic excuse for a league?

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/guinness-pro12-a-league-of-its-own-and-getting-stronger-all-the-time-1.1915783

The opinion seems to be the seem among opposition fans (see Scarlets vs Ulster reports on here), so I'd imagine it's the same for coaches.

He has a point though. He would probably know about the Aviva Prem seeing as he was at London Welsh two seasons ago. It's not bad sportsmanship or whatever, but if you get a try ruled out by an Irish touch judge incorrectly (and if local radio commentators say as much, then it must be pretty true) and then lose by five, I think anybody would feel aggrieved. When you then get decisions like byrne's yellow which looked pretty harsh and a questionable forward pass call too, then I would lean to asking for neutral officials too, instead of calling them up on sheer incompetency.

The officiating on the whole is garbage in our league and I include many welsh in that too. Too many touchjudges are passive (though if they make calls like disallowing Coombs' try, maybe that should remain the case) and there aren't enough top standard refs anyway.

We'll keep a close eye on the rest of the season and judge bias and 'perceptions' of bias accordingly. It'll conclude as it does every season - if you lose, the ref and officials were poor or downright biased - if you win, the ref and officials were probably poor and downright biased to both sides equally, which makes it a fair game and we're willing to live with the win, such as it was

SecretFly wrote:Do ALL (I mean ALL) AP games have TMO available?  Could someone who knows confirm?

And then maybe someone could do the same for Top14 and Southern Hemisphere club games - ALL games each and every week TMOed?

Thanks in advance?  

A!l AP games are now TMO'd and were last season. Pretty sure it was first trialled fairly late in 2012-13 season. The problem, if there is a problem, was more acute for AP since usually six teams each week were TMOless, whereas in Pro12 it is often just two (or none?).

Dunno about elsewhere.

It was 2011-12 season, first TMO trial match being Glaws v Exeter with Exeter winning from a last minute try awarded by TMO. Apparently it costs about £350k to cover the extra 3 games per week for the season.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Do ALL (I mean ALL) AP games have TMO available?  Could someone who knows confirm?

And then maybe someone could do the same for Top14 and Southern Hemisphere club games - ALL games each and every week TMOed?

Thanks in advance?  

A!l AP games are now TMO'd and were last season. Pretty sure it was first trialled fairly late in 2012-13 season. The problem, if there is a problem, was more acute for AP since usually six teams each week were TMOless, whereas in Pro12 it is often just two (or none?).

Dunno about elsewhere.

Thanks for the info. It does all come down to money and the number of cameras used at non-televised matches

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Having watched a couple of Pro12 games from the weekend now, I can honestly say that there is more bite in the tackling and at the breakdown. If this is a result of the new Euro qualification then all well and good in terms of improving the spectacle.

However, with heavier collisions comes an increased risk of injury. Poor Noel Reid of Leinster was crocked making a 2nd minute tackle. Will the unions step in and tell players to 'ease off' if injuries mount? Or simply stop them playing.

There may be more bite, but in the 2 live games on sky last weekend, there was a total of 105 missed tackles.

That's pretty incredible.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Having watched a couple of Pro12 games from the weekend now, I can honestly say that there is more bite in the tackling and at the breakdown. If this is a result of the new Euro qualification then all well and good in terms of improving the spectacle.

However, with heavier collisions comes an increased risk of injury. Poor Noel Reid of Leinster was crocked making a 2nd minute tackle. Will the unions step in and tell players to 'ease off' if injuries mount? Or simply stop them playing.

There may be more bite, but in the 2 live games on sky last weekend, there was a total of 105 missed tackles.

That's pretty incredible.

Yeah but 104 of those missed tackles were from Scarlets players as Stuart Olding ran past them.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Having watched a couple of Pro12 games from the weekend now, I can honestly say that there is more bite in the tackling and at the breakdown. If this is a result of the new Euro qualification then all well and good in terms of improving the spectacle.

However, with heavier collisions comes an increased risk of injury. Poor Noel Reid of Leinster was crocked making a 2nd minute tackle. Will the unions step in and tell players to 'ease off' if injuries mount? Or simply stop them playing.

There may be more bite, but in the 2 live games on sky last weekend, there was a total of 105 missed tackles.

That's pretty incredible.

Yeah but 104 of those missed tackles were from Scarlets players as Stuart Olding ran past them.

True.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Having watched a couple of Pro12 games from the weekend now, I can honestly say that there is more bite in the tackling and at the breakdown. If this is a result of the new Euro qualification then all well and good in terms of improving the spectacle.

However, with heavier collisions comes an increased risk of injury. Poor Noel Reid of Leinster was crocked making a 2nd minute tackle. Will the unions step in and tell players to 'ease off' if injuries mount? Or simply stop them playing.

There may be more bite, but in the 2 live games on sky last weekend, there was a total of 105 missed tackles.

That's pretty incredible.

So conservatively assuming each squad used an average of 20 players per game that's an average of 1.3 missed tackles per player. In perfect conditions for running rugby leading to above average numbers of line breaks.
Why is this not credible?

Submachine wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:

Having watched a couple of Pro12 games from the weekend now, I can honestly say that there is more bite in the tackling and at the breakdown. If this is a result of the new Euro qualification then all well and good in terms of improving the spectacle.

However, with heavier collisions comes an increased risk of injury. Poor Noel Reid of Leinster was crocked making a 2nd minute tackle. Will the unions step in and tell players to 'ease off' if injuries mount? Or simply stop them playing.

There may be more bite, but in the 2 live games on sky last weekend, there was a total of 105 missed tackles.

That's pretty incredible.

So conservatively assuming each squad used an average of 20 players per game that's an average of 1.3 missed tackles per player. In perfect conditions for running rugby leading to above average numbers of line breaks.
Why is this not credible?

You wouldn't make a good defence coach.

Not too hot on your prospects as an analyst.

I can't be bothered to argue. If you feel 53 missed tackles in a pro game of rugby is the norm, fair play to you.

Chunky Norwich wrote:I can't be bothered to argue. If you feel 53 missed tackles in a pro game of rugby is the norm, fair play to you.

You can't be bothered? Do you understand how forums like this work or do you just want to post your thought provoking comments and opinion and then be ignored? I don't know what the norm is. I would say it is on the high side. Possibly for the REASONS i stated earlier. A slow, low scoring, forwards dominated game in poor conditions will most likley produce fewer missed tackles.
A fast game on a hard track will generally lead to more missed tackles leading to higher scoring matches.
So in summary
Slow game, poor conditions = harder to make breaks = fewer missed tackles
Fast game, good conditions = easier to make breaks = more missed tackles
It's science

61 of those missed tackles were in the Scarlets Ulster game, a game which I enjoyed btw. 35 of those were by the Scarlets, just because one Welsh.team can't defend it seems a bit much to call the whole league weak.

justified sinner wrote:61 of those missed tackles were in the Scarlets Ulster game, a game which I enjoyed btw. 35 of those were by the Scarlets, just because one Welsh.team can't defend it seems a bit much to call the whole league weak.

We will have to wait and see what happens with missed tackles vrs Ulster in other games. After all missed tackles are partially attacking skill too.

The Scarlets' backs were extremely soft at defending, when Ulster's locks walked for their tries nobody bothered to even attempt to tackle them. That was a very enjoyable game though.

Vince that's true. I was just trying to counter the argument that missed tackles means poor defence. A good attacker using good lines etc should break tackles/avoid tackles leading to a higher missed tackle count. Also not attempting a tackle is poor defence, but doesn't count as a missed tackle, some welsh international players have been guilty of that in the past.

Agreed, Glasgow are the perfect example of a great backline defense for the last few seasons, fast line speed and aggressive tackling.

In other news i see the Italians haven't a broadcaster yet (which is why there is no TMO for Treviso-Munster game tonight), as results of the 1st rounds can attest too i definitely think they are holding the league back and are just here to make the numbers.

Hope to be proven wrong though.

wayne wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:In the clubhouse at Ealing they have the flags of St. Andrew, St. David, St. George and St. Patrick hanging from the walls.

The club has quite an Irish influence; they play in green and white with orange trim, bank with Allied Irish Bank and have had a few Presidents of Irish descent.

If you are a Bridgend fan I take it the Ospreys are your region. It doesn't always work like that in Wales, I know.

Yes I'm an Osprey ST holder and have been so since the Celtic Warriors disbanded, apart from 2 years when I had heart problems, when I'm up in London next, hopefully I'll call in.

I hope things are ok now. We usually meet in The Wheatsheaf pub in Haven Lane beforehand and get a bus over there.

Be good to see you. One of the Ealing life members is Welsh and the 'Sheaf is his local. PM me whenever you fancy going.

Gibson wrote:

Hound of Harrow wrote:Aah....I have experienced the noble sport of Drinking in Dublin during the 2013 Euro finals weekend.

Some fine 'sportsmen' that city has. Especially in Cassidys.

         

Grand Day Out, eh Hound?

You going to Twickers for the new Heino Final this year mate? I might even let you buy me a pint bro.

Aye it sure was a grand day out, and a fair whack raised for a good charity too.

The Amlin evening in Searsons, then the game at the RDS and back to Searsons after was also good craic.

I enjoyed the impromptu singing at Cassidys - very much the locals making their own entertainment.........

Especially in the smoking area.


I hope to be at Twickers for next year's final. Same drill beforehand as we did for the 2012 final I would say. But not the Orange Tree afterwards!

Even the "best ref in the world" had a stinker tonight. The Pro 12 refs have no hope.

Risca Rev wrote:Even the "best ref in the world" had a stinker tonight. The Pro 12 refs have no hope.

I do think they're under more pressure due to the tribal nature of the league. Everyone thinks the refs are biased against their team. Having refs of the same nationality as one of the teams is something I'd like to see changed sometime.

In the AP, the refs are the same Nationality as both teams!  No hassles there.

Okay that might seem like a joke with that comparison but no, it's pointed.  Every ref comes from somewhere and if they grew up with rugby and played rugby and had favourite sides, well then even in regional terms within one Nation, there is always the opportunity to say a ref might be biased in favour of one team over another.

He might be biased in wanting one team to win so that his favourite side (playing elsewhere) has an easier time in amassing points in the League.  I mean he doesn't have to have a personal vested interest in the two teams he is reffing in specific terms, but he could have a reason to effect a result that might benefit a team being reffed far away from him by another ref.
Also, if you try to say an Italian or Scot should always ref a game against an Irish and Welsh side well there still would arise the concept of bias - as I've distinctly heard over the years the odd Welsh supporter even saying a Scots ref tends to favour the Irish side!  Yes, I've heard that argued openly.

So............................?  Where does that leave us?  The 'bias' accusation will never die, no matter where the ref comes from.

I'm sure we've had French refs doing AP games in the past. And our refs did French games. It was 3-4 seasons ago.

I like most of the French refs as they are very good at reffing the scrum.

Wherever a ref is from, and whatever league they are reffing in, some fans will always blame them if their team lost. No matter that their team got hammered and were useless, it's always 'that biased ref's fault'.

I have no issue with the nationalitiy of refs in the Pro 12. Its irrelevant. Its not international competition.

profitius wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Even the "best ref in the world" had a stinker tonight. The Pro 12 refs have no hope.

I do think they're under more pressure due to the tribal nature of the league. Everyone thinks the refs are biased against their team. Having refs of the same nationality as one of the teams is something I'd like to see changed sometime.

It just can't be done. It was done before, but was a major screw job to the regions, we always had to have a Chanleng ref us against the provinces. Until the Scots/Italians get at leat one semi decent ref we need same nation refs.

Also the ref gets stick for where in their own nation their from. Nigel Owens, a Scarlets fan, shafts us every time to prove neutrality etc. The Irish suffer from refs bias to/again provinces too.

I don't worry about the nationality of the ref. I would much rather be reffed by a good ref from the nation of the team we are playing than a rubbish ref from Ireland. It does seem to me that refs are at pains to prove they are not biased towards their own- I do feel very often with Irish refs reffing us when we are in Wales they are at pains to demonstrate that and they maybe even over-compensate.

I have seen some terribly biased decisions from the local TMO particularly in Italy and Ireland, this must be addressed as soon as possible or scrap the TMO.
Also why a Welsh or Italian wasnt in charge for yesterday game at Murrayfield is beyond me, just because a game involves 2 teams that will probably finish in the bottom half of the league doesn't mean it has to be treated poorly.

I was lucky enough to go to the Aviva double header last week at Twickenham and there were 2 terrible TMO decisions so trust me its not just in our league.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I was lucky enough to go to the Aviva double header last week at Twickenham and there were 2 terrible TMO decisions so trust me its not just in our league.

Which ones we those? Can't remember any shockers myself.

There were two one in each game then again it may have had something to do with fact that was surrounded by fans on the wrong end of the decisions but they were decisions that could have gone either way.

If through a drunken haze memory serves me right it was Strettles 3rd in last few minutes which looked bit dubious and can't remember what other one was now but at time it seemed a bit iffy or like said could have gone either way.

Leinster cruising to an easy bonus point win at home to Scarlets, getting to give some good experience for players on the fringes of their squad.

Where do the Scarlets go from here? They need a new defense coach anyway...

bedfordwelsh wrote:If through a drunken haze memory serves me right it was Strettles 3rd in last few minutes which looked bit dubious and can't remember what other one was now but at time it seemed a bit iffy or like said could have gone either way.

Strettle's was touch and go but I wouldn't have said it was a terrible decision. From e last angle it was reasonably clear he had just stroked the line before the ball was pulled up.

But there are terrible decisions, many of them probably.

TJ wrote:I have no issue with the nationalitiy of refs in the Pro 12.  Its irrelevant.  Its not international competition.

Quote of the Day.

Guinness don't sponsor mediocrity. The refs are being held back after class from here on in. Reffing levels are being shifted upwards.  Its in the new PRO12 Constitution.
It must improve to match the level of the players in it. And its a very strong league now player-wise.  As strong as the English and French leagues and far better to watch.

Id rather have a sly whaankk on Maggie Thatcher in her pomp,  than watch the TOP14.  Dreadful fare.  English league is not much better to be honest. Both must do better and stop trying to fock up our game for the lure of hyped-up gold. As it is in soccerball.

Better reffing standards yes - I just believe the nationality of them is irrelevant

TJ wrote:Better reffing standards yes - I just believe the nationality of them is irrelevant

And you are right TJ.

Our Romanian ref Mitrea had a great game today unbiased and consistent with his calls.

VinceWLB wrote:Our Romanian ref Mitrea had a great game today unbiased and consistent with his calls.

His improvement over the last 12 months has been staggering. He is now easily one of the best refs in the league now imo.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Our Romanian ref Mitrea had a great game today unbiased and consistent with his calls.

His improvement over the last 12 months has been staggering. He is now easily one of the best refs in the league now imo.

Agreed he is easily in my top 3, always consistent in his decisions and not afraid to talk to players.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Where do the Scarlets go from here? They need a new defense coach anyway...

They play Treviso at home next week so plenty of opportunities for them to tighten things up. A lot of teams have early problems though. Ulster and Munster have been hardly very convincing so far either. Glasgow made a great start and then fell asleep in the second half. You have to think that these teams will shake out the rust as they go along.

They've got a new defence guru. Maybe that's the problem that he hasn't got his system implemented fully yet.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Where do the Scarlets go from here? They need a new defense coach anyway...

I know Leinster are good, but surely it's an unacceptable scoreline for Scarlets with the team they put out. Actually looked pretty decent on paper. Their defence coach is Wales U20 coach. Under him they went from having one of the best defences in the world at their level, to one of the worst.

To think some Dragons fans moaned that he left our region to head to the Wild West too. Just shows people will grasp at any opportunity to moan.

Back on topic. I thought Blues Glasgow was a far better game than Wasps Saints.

justified sinner wrote:Back on topic. I thought Blues Glasgow was a far better game than Wasps Saints.

I agree. I watched 4 games this weekend, Toulon / stade, wasps / saints, Edinburgh / cannacht and Glasgow / Blues. Glasgow game the best, Edinburgh were mince, toulon were dull and Wasps / Saints was very negative

TJ wrote:

justified sinner wrote:Back on topic. I thought Blues Glasgow was a far better game than Wasps Saints.

I agree.  I watched 4 games this weekend,  Toulon / stade, wasps / saints, Edinburgh / cannacht and Glasgow / Blues.  Glasgow game the best, Edinburgh were mince, toulon were dull and Wasps / Saints was very negative

Really? I enjoyed that game a lot.

I guess different strokes for different folks. I've really enjoyed watching Wasps the last few games.

Cyril wrote:

TJ wrote:

justified sinner wrote:Back on topic. I thought Blues Glasgow was a far better game than Wasps Saints.

I agree.  I watched 4 games this weekend,  Toulon / stade, wasps / saints, Edinburgh / cannacht and Glasgow / Blues.  Glasgow game the best, Edinburgh were mince, toulon were dull and Wasps / Saints was very negative

Really? I enjoyed that game a lot.

I guess different strokes for different folks. I've really enjoyed watching Wasps the last few games.

Ditto (I was even going to say the 'different strokes' but.