Guinness Pro 12. Pathetic excuse for a league?

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/pro12/guinness-pro12-a-league-of-its-own-and-getting-stronger-all-the-time-1.1915783

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:If there was a TMO for the Dragons V Connacht game last weekend I think the Dragons would have won that game.

If there wasn't a TMO Ulster might have beaten the Scarlets.

Yes, but the fact that the right call was called showed the benefit of HAVING a TMO, in the Dragons game the both try's that were disallowed were dubious to say the least and if there was a TMO things could have gone differently.

But thats the point, it wasn't the right call to disallow that try. You are the first person I've seen say that it was the right call including all the Scarlets supporters I've seen discuss it. I haven't found one single person yet who has argued it was the right call apart from you.

Notch wrote:But thats the point, it wasn't the right call to disallow that try. You are the first person I've seen say that it was the right call including all the Scarlets supporters I've seen discuss it. I haven't found one single person yet who has argued it was the right call apart from you.

Anyway, the fact that there was the "opportunity" to have the TMO is the jist I am trying to get to, rightly or wrongly in the Scarlets game, the opportunity was there, the Dragons did not get that opportunity on either of their disallowed try's so that is where we are at,the TMO could also make a mistake in that game, and the less said about the TMO in the Zebre V Blues game the better.

I suppose my point is, TMOs don't stop errors being made. I've seen some absolutely atrocious TMO calls.

Notch wrote:I suppose my point is, TMOs don't stop errors being made. I've seen some absolutely atrocious TMO calls.

Yes, again I am agreeing with you, the one on Sunday afternoon was a nightmare between the Zebre and Blues, the ref even had to give him a telling off, all live and heard by the tele audience. But, the choice of a TMO was there for the Ulster and Scarlets game, wrong call or not, there was not one for the Dragons and Connacht game which is unfair, if there was a competent TMO for the game at Galway then it is more probable that the Dragons could have won. Things like that make a difference at the end of the season.

Yeah but thats always the way when a match isn't broadcast. You're not wrong but I'd like to see the TMO scaled right back anyway. It's damaging the game not improving it.

Notch wrote:Yeah but thats always the way when a match isn't broadcast. You're not wrong but I'd like to see the TMO scaled right back anyway. It's damaging the game not improving it.

I do not think the TMO in itself is damaging, it's the way they use it, and the Ref's are using it more and more as a cop out these days, when it was first introduced it was fine, now the ref's use it for everything.

Get behind your Region LD.

Notch wrote:Yeah but thats always the way when a match isn't broadcast. You're not wrong but I'd like to see the TMO scaled right back anyway. It's damaging the game not improving it.

I think the new use of the TMO is improving the game. It's the referee's you should take issue with. They can overrule the TMO. Owens uses it very well, very efficiently and gets on with the game. More refs need to be like that. Shocking if they didn't have a TMO up in Connacht, TMO is just as vital a cog as the ref and touch judged IMO.

Why are people acting like this is some new thing? There has not been a TMO at games that aren't televised as long as the TMO has existed.

Thats my point LD, we need to go back to the TMO only being able to rule on events in goal and MAYBE serious foul play, at most.

I think the pro12 produces some greatr rugby and is very even. the reduction in european cup places will do huge damage to the game in Scotland Italy and wales for two reasons 1) the european cup will be a borefest of englisha nd french teams, 2) an d most importantly no one wants anything to do with a second teir comp - no team willtake it seriously, audiences will be low and the standard of rugby will be very poor - far lower than the pro 12 - so edinburgh will end up playing in a comp with no one watching, poor quality oppsition so no raising of standards. I certainly will not be watching edinburgh 2nds playing a french teams 3rds on a thursaday night infront of 3 men and a dog. this will come back to haunt the PRL teams badly as the revenue collapses as crowds go down - and so much for the riches we were all promised from it

bedfordwelsh wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

TMOs.  When we have them, nobody wants them.  When we don't have them, we want them.....

I am not bothered either way whether we have them or not but it should be a level playing field across the board.

Well, I was only having a little fun with the concept but when all is said and done, there never quite is a level playing field in any game. There is always an Away team that don't have Home advantage, there are games where teams must do with less experienced refs than other games, there are often injuries to strategic players that can often make the bouts uneven.... there are lots of little things in every game that can often tip the balance of favouritism to one team over the other. I appreciate your point in theory but in practice a level playing field is a rare rare thing.

TJ wrote:I think the pro12 produces some greatr rugby and is very even.  the reduction in european cup places will do huge damage to the game in Scotland Italy and wales for two reasons 1) the european cup will be a borefest of englisha nd french teams, 2) an d most importantly no one wants anything to do with a second teir comp - no team willtake it seriously, audiences will be low and the standard of rugby will be very poor - far lower than the pro 12 - so edinburgh will end up playing in a comp with no one watching, poor quality oppsition so no raising of standards.  I certainly will not be watching edinburgh 2nds playing a french teams 3rds on a thursaday night infront of 3 men and a dog.  this will come back to haunt the PRL teams badly as the revenue collapses as crowds go down - and so much for the riches we were all promised from it

Hmm, I hope you are very wrong about this (but fear you may not be). We are clearly at some kind of turning point in the professional game but have we reached the depths of football already??
In the English Premier League if a club was offered to win a cup treble of FA Cup, League Cup and Uefa Cup but finish 5th in the league (and hence not qualify for the Champions League), this would be viewed as a worse season than if they limped out in the 1st round of all those competitions but finished 4th in the league and qualified for the elite competition.
Such is the £££££££££££££ aspect of making the champions league the actual "here and now" is forgotten/thrown aside for the continual chasing of the golden carrot.

Forget the fans, the thrill of a cup run, the chance to travel to different locations and face different clubs, meet different fans. The potential of making a quarter, semi, final, or even to hold a trophy aloft in front of your long-suffering supporters. Nope, just getting to the ERCC is the only aim.

I don't think we have hit those depths yet. If Edinburgh were to make a run in this challenge cup I feel our standards will be raised - playing knockout rugby against similar standard teams will surely leave us better placed to progress than if we limped home in a Champions Cup group.

I think the opposite from you TJ. I will be at Murrayfield for our Challenge Cup games, I am also saving up to make the trip to the London Welsh match (my 1st away game, other than Glasgow). I will go in anticipation of a good run, and hopefully making the quarters (and beyond). I'd be delighted to get the chance to travel down for a final at the end of the season. I hope teams take this new competition more seriously than many did with the Amlin. If Edinburgh sacrifice this competition by playing B teams, just so we can scrape into 6th place in the League I won't be happy at all. In fact, I probably wouldn't renew my ST next year if that happens, I think this would be a sign that fans enjoyment can be traded off for a place at the top table.

Notch wrote:Why are people acting like this is some new thing? There has not been a TMO at games that aren't televised as long as the TMO has existed.

Thats my point LD, we need to go back to the TMO only being able to rule on events in goal and MAYBE serious foul play, at most.

Foul play only for me. Let the ref and his linesmen make all the other decisions.

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:Read something yesterday on another thread which sort of lends strength to this argument.  Apparantely there was no (read there never is) the TMO capability available to refs when at Connacht.

Surely it should be a level playing field as in all grounds have it or none have it, if this is true then we will always lag behind other leagues.

Connacht have had plenty of home games where the TMO has been available.  

Dorothy,

I thought that must have been the case especially in European games it would have had to have been a must surely.  But again surely it should be available every game across the board if teams lose points to out there due to no TMO and lets say on same day another team get the points due to a TMO decision then thats unfair

I know Glasgow games up till last season, only had TMO's if the TV was covering the game.   I do agree that ideally all games should have the TMO, but I don't think its that big an issue to be honest.  

It is when you have a perfectly legitimate try ruled out by a "neutral" touch judge/incompetent Italian ref and then lose by 5 points.

TJ wrote:I think the pro12 produces some greatr rugby and is very even.  the reduction in european cup places will do huge damage to the game in Scotland Italy and wales for two reasons 1) the european cup will be a borefest of englisha nd french teams, 2) an d most importantly no one wants anything to do with a second teir comp - no team willtake it seriously, audiences will be low and the standard of rugby will be very poor - far lower than the pro 12 - so edinburgh will end up playing in a comp with no one watching, poor quality oppsition so no raising of standards.  I certainly will not be watching edinburgh 2nds playing a french teams 3rds on a thursaday night infront of 3 men and a dog.  this will come back to haunt the PRL teams badly as the revenue collapses as crowds go down - and so much for the riches we were all promised from it

Grand - so if you know all the above to be true, can you PM me the winning lottery numbers!
Cheers.



The Challenge Cup is actually likely to attract better crowds imo. Purely because there are theoretically no easy teams. No Italian league clubs and no Romanian or Spanish invited teams. They were the games with a lack of crowds because a 50+ point drubbing was coming. Although the away trips to Italy trumped anywhere in the UK or Ireland. It's a shame only a handful od their fans ever came to the return fixture.

But back to the Pro12. I often record games because of the kick off times. If there is one thing missing it is a lack of atmosphere at 'non-derby' games.

Deleted

Lack of atmosphere? Agree on certain games, but certainly can't accuse Glasgow Leinster of that last week.

Yeah, but then Edinburgh at home every other week to be fair Sinner...  The Pro12s problem with atmosphere is that it has a good few teams that one way or another have gotten themselves in a stadium bigger than they can fill- at least for bread and butter league games.

I would say Edinburgh, Munster, Scarlets and Ospreys home games look and sound very, very poor on TV as there are too many empty seats. I mean Munster beat Glasgow hands down in terms of attendances but as much there's a much, much better atmosphere at a game where there are 7000 people in a 9,700 stadium compared to 13000 in a ground that can hold 26000.

I didn't see the Leinster v Glasgow game as I don't have Sky - I recorded Ospreys v Treviso last weekend as it was on a terrestrial channel.

I completely understand the lack of atmosphere at many games in the Pro12. Travel generally involves a flight or ferry and an overnight stay, and is therefore too expensive. Plus away gamws are a drain on annual leave.

Hound, if you're interested, here's the Glasgow v Leinster match:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcsYqRhW95I

Quite the occasion, I'd say!

Cheers IB. I'll watch that tomorrow.

The fire is up on them damn Scots, sure enough!!!

Something is going down there that I can't quite get a handle on.... is there something happening over there that I don't know about??

BTW, you want real fire, blood, speed, madness, violence, exceptional skill and a wild 82,000 audience just watch last weekend's Hurling. And some still insist that rugby is Ireland's top sport as we constantly try to tell them, it ain't

SecretFly wrote:BTW, you want real fire, blood, speed, madness, violence, exceptional skill and a wild 82,000 audience just watch last weekend's Hurling.  And some still insist that rugby is Ireland's top sport as we constantly try to tell them, it ain't

No it's your 10th choice sport remember...least that's what you all told us during your losing streak to Wales .

The Saint wrote:

SecretFly wrote:BTW, you want real fire, blood, speed, madness, violence, exceptional skill and a wild 82,000 audience just watch last weekend's Hurling.  And some still insist that rugby is Ireland's top sport as we constantly try to tell them, it ain't

No it's your 10th choice sport remember...least that's what you all told us during your losing streak to Wales .

Glad you're one person that believes us, Saint.  Most of the other across-the-waves crew say: "Shyte!  Yis talk down rugby just to have excuses when you lose, yis absolute gobshytes!!!  Rugby is your number one sport...and yis are still shyte at it "

Men's GAA Football.
Men's GAA Hurling.
Minor's GAA Football.
Minor's Hurling.
Women's GAA Football.
Camogie.
AIL Soccer.
Cricket.
Bog Snorkelling.
Rugby Union.

Yup. There you have it Saint. Rugby is the 10th most popular sport in Ireland. Fly's right.

Now yis have it!!!!  Good lads.... though rugby is still a little high on your list Hound ... there is 'drinking' that is higher...

Aah....I have experienced the noble sport of Drinking in Dublin during the 2013 Euro finals weekend.

Some fine 'sportsmen' that city has. Especially in Cassidys.

         

SecretFly wrote:Now yis have it!!!!  Good lads.... though rugby is still a little high on your list Hound ... there is 'drinking' that is higher...

 
And how could I forget Horse Racing, Boxing and golf. Way ahead of rugby, yes?

Hound of Harrow wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Now yis have it!!!!  Good lads.... though rugby is still a little high on your list Hound ... there is 'drinking' that is higher...

 
And how could I forget Horse Racing, Boxing and golf. Way ahead of rugby, yes?

Fishing ?

Jesus!!!!!!!!!...rugby is in a terrible state here...worse than I thought............. we might have to abandon the WC and send a handful of jockeys and bog snorkelers instead.

SecretFly wrote:Jesus!!!!!!!!!...rugby is in a terrible state here...worse than I thought.............  we might have to abandon the WC and send a handful of jockeys and bog snorkelers instead.

A bunch of those from Andorra almost beat us at football the other night.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Jesus!!!!!!!!!...rugby is in a terrible state here...worse than I thought.............  we might have to abandon the WC and send a handful of jockeys and bog snorkelers instead.

A bunch of those from Andorra almost beat us at football the other night.

I have no comback to that one. You killed me.

Pathetic is very harsh.

It's generally not a great league though, the standard isn't the best.

It's often better than Top14... and it has its moments when compared to AP too. And I'm sure AP has it's moments and Top 14 has its games when the chips are down and bloody thunder hits the screens. All leagues have their moments of "Wow"...and moments of "Is that all???"

Sarge - the headline is tongue in cheek.

Having watched a couple of Pro12 games from the weekend now, I can honestly say that there is more bite in the tackling and at the breakdown. If this is a result of the new Euro qualification then all well and good in terms of improving the spectacle.

However, with heavier collisions comes an increased risk of injury. Poor Noel Reid of Leinster was crocked making a 2nd minute tackle. Will the unions step in and tell players to 'ease off' if injuries mount? Or simply stop them playing.

That could be interesting if a union want players rested in a crucial league match towards the end of the season.

Ah right, I just scanned.

I did catch a bit of the games at the weekend and it seemed pretty good actually. Too often over previous seasons it's just struggled to be consistantly good though.

Sarge - Being a Wasps and Ealing STH, the AP and Nat. 1 are the leagues I mainly follow. But I also enjoy watching the players in the Pro12 and T14.

The T14 could certainly do with the implementation of a French qualified player quota per team. They are the league currently going down the same road as English football's Premier League. If things continue as they are then France will struggle to put a team out worthy of tier 1 status.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Sarge - Being a Wasps and Ealing STH, the AP and Nat. 1 are the leagues I mainly follow. But I also enjoy watching the players in the Pro12 and T14.

The T14 could certainly do with the implementation of a French qualified player quota per team. They are the league currently going down the same road as English football's Premier League. If things continue as they are then France will struggle to put a team out worthy of tier 1 status.

Hound where does Ealing STH play, I lived in Hanwell and Perivale in the late 70s and early 80s, my youngest was born in Hammersmith, when living in Hanwell.

wayne - STH = season ticket holder. The full name of the club is Ealing Trailfinders Rugby Club. Trailfinders being the main sponsors.

They now play at Trailfinders Sports Club at Vallis Way W13; almost next to Castlebar Park station. You may have known it as the GWR Sports Ground a few years ago.

They used to play at Horsenden Hill until invited to use the new Trailfinders facilities.

I can hold a s.t. for both clubs as most of Wasps' home games are scheduled for Sundays an Ealing's on Saturdays this season.

, I know Horsenden Hill very well, I used to run a lot when living in London, was a member of Ealing/ Southall AC, played Golf at the 9 hole course up there among others, I can remember a local Ealing team in the paper, yet never went to watch them, if I wasn't working went to see the Welsh 2 or 3 times a season especially when Bridgend were up there, a very lively existence loved it especially the banter when we were winning Wales v England not so good in the 80s when you overcome our stranglehold.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Sarge - Being a Wasps and Ealing STH, the AP and Nat. 1 are the leagues I mainly follow. But I also enjoy watching the players in the Pro12 and T14.

The T14 could certainly do with the implementation of a French qualified player quota per team. They are the league currently going down the same road as English football's Premier League. If things continue as they are then France will struggle to put a team out worthy of tier 1 status.

that looks like the JIFF quita system which is already active (although at squad level not match day 23 so not very effective). If Tier 1 is NZ, SA, AUS , England , Ireland, Wales and possibly Argentina, France are clearly in Tier 2...

In the clubhouse at Ealing they have the flags of St. Andrew, St. David, St. George and St. Patrick hanging from the walls.

The club has quite an Irish influence; they play in green and white with orange trim, bank with Allied Irish Bank and have had a few Presidents of Irish descent.

If you are a Bridgend fan I take it the Ospreys are your region. It doesn't always work like that in Wales, I know.

whocares  - I usually take tier 1 to be the 6N teams and four RC teams. Fiji and Samoa have pulled off wins over tier 1 teams over the last 15 years, but they are still rare.

Hound of Harrow wrote:In the clubhouse at Ealing they have the flags of St. Andrew, St. David, St. George and St. Patrick hanging from the walls.

The club has quite an Irish influence; they play in green and white with orange trim, bank with Allied Irish Bank and have had a few Presidents of Irish descent.

If you are a Bridgend fan I take it the Ospreys are your region. It doesn't always work like that in Wales, I know.

Yes I'm an Osprey ST holder and have been so since the Celtic Warriors disbanded, apart from 2 years when I had heart problems, when I'm up in London next, hopefully I'll call in.

Hound of Harrow wrote:Aah....I have experienced the noble sport of Drinking in Dublin during the 2013 Euro finals weekend.

Some fine 'sportsmen' that city has. Especially in Cassidys.

         

Grand Day Out, eh Hound?

You going to Twickers for the new Heino Final this year mate? I might even let you buy me a pint bro.

Lyn Jones slagging the Pro12 officials, saying what we have always thought: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/29165275

Do ALL (I mean ALL) AP games have TMO available? Could someone who knows confirm?

And then maybe someone could do the same for Top14 and Southern Hemisphere club games - ALL games each and every week TMOed?

Thanks in advance?

Also, will Lynn be worried about accusations of home non-neutral assistant refs when games are played in his grounds? Or will such accusations be ranked scurrilous, bad-sportsmanship and downright bad-losership?