Scotland - Political ramifications of YES win ??

First topic message reminder :

If momentum is anything to go by..Next week we'll see a Political earthquake...

What do you think happens for the British govt in the next few weeks should Scotland go...Personally can't see Cammy staying and can't see how it can wait till May for an election !!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Just going by the polls....

Me.. I'd want independence If I was young and idealist..

Just worry about the Scottish economy......Don't want to see good people struggling..

The good won't. Cream rises to the crop - they'll leave for where the best jobs are (likely south of the border). LBG has already confirmed it'll move HQ south, for example.

I said good people....

You make Gordon Gekko look human..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I went for a weekend in Llandudno ( ch spelling) when I was dating Jo..

Is that the South ??..   Enjoyed it..

Spelling is fine Truss. But no it's not in the south. Infact apart from the Isle of Anglesey it's about as north as you can get in Wales

North Wales suffers less from deprivation as the population is far less and they survive off rural lifestyle. South Wales (mainly the east side) has always been the workshop of Wales and since there is no industry left it is now a baron wasteland of boarded up shops and pubs, large dole queues and unemployed teens smoking weed on street corners

I'm lucky as I come from one of the few wealthy parts of the south Wales valleys and now live in the cosmopolitan haven of Cardiff. Working class boy done well and all that

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I said good people....

You make Gordon Gekko look human..

Those 'good' people need to get voting then, don't they??

Steffan wrote:South Wales (mainly the east side) has always been the workshop of Wales and since there is no industry left it is now a baron wasteland of boarded up shops and pubs, large dole queues and unemployed teens smoking weed on street corners

You wanted 'The National Assembly of Wales'!

Brys wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

SecretFly wrote:...As in "You know nothing will work without us - not the Health service, not Education, not Security, not your Oil Industry...nothing will work without us being there to control and regulate it, Salmond is talking crap, you know he's talking crap...and yet you lot still want to vote for Independence??"...

Incidentally, I don't know that anyone has said none of the above will work. Just that the way they'll have to be financed to achieve Salmond's Utopian ideals is not commensurate with the reality. I think that's fair comment to make.

Salmond or Sturgeon have never actually said there's gonna be a Utopian Scotland coming out of this vote if things go Yes, not sure where this notion has come from. Sturgeon just recently said that there will be ups and downs along the way but what they want is for Scotland to be the one deciding on these issues and not a Westminster government is all. This is pretty much the same sentiment that come from most of the Yes voices even if they do support independence but not SNP policies as a whole.

That's all well and good and perfectly fair. Use of 'Utopian' was mine in this instance, however, pray explain how all this 'free' healthcare, prescriptions, education etc etc, which, presumably the SNP will improve massively, is to be funded? This (possibly) pie-in-the-sky dream of a Scotland of the people and for the people is all well and good but I think that's a very poor reason, under the circumstances, to be chasing independence. I think people are entitled to know the practicalities (i.e. the truth on the costs) aside from the dream. That's for the SNP to detail and I've seen chuff all on the big, substantive, issues.

Do they ???....

I'm sure "Good people" will be voting yes and no in this election..

Scrumpy wrote:How many Euros do you get to the £ these days?

As of 15.04 today, about €1.25 although that's not the rate given to us at the banks. Dropped a bit on Monday from where it'd been.

Scrumpy wrote:

Steffan wrote:South Wales (mainly the east side) has always been the workshop of Wales and since there is no industry left it is now a baron wasteland of boarded up shops and pubs, large dole queues and unemployed teens smoking weed on street corners

You wanted 'The National Assembly of Wales'!

Yes but the assembly needs decent people running it. Welsh Labour have done a great job in finishing off what the Tories started in the 80s and running us into the ground. That being said I guess the morons who continue to make south Wales a Labour stronghold are to blame for a lot since the assembly came in. Glad I'm not one of them

navyblueshorts wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:How many Euros do you get to the £ these days?

As of 15.04 today, about €1.25 although that's not the rate given to us at the banks. Dropped a bit on Monday from where it'd been.

Cheers.

Does anyone else think it will be a pain in the bum to have to go through border control once Scotland votes yes?

navyblueshorts wrote:

Brys wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

SecretFly wrote:...As in "You know nothing will work without us - not the Health service, not Education, not Security, not your Oil Industry...nothing will work without us being there to control and regulate it, Salmond is talking crap, you know he's talking crap...and yet you lot still want to vote for Independence??"...

Incidentally, I don't know that anyone has said none of the above will work. Just that the way they'll have to be financed to achieve Salmond's Utopian ideals is not commensurate with the reality. I think that's fair comment to make.

Salmond or Sturgeon have never actually said there's gonna be a Utopian Scotland coming out of this vote if things go Yes, not sure where this notion has come from. Sturgeon just recently said that there will be ups and downs along the way but what they want is for Scotland to be the one deciding on these issues and not a Westminster government is all. This is pretty much the same sentiment that come from most of the Yes voices even if they do support independence but not SNP policies as a whole.

That's all well and good and perfectly fair. Use of 'Utopian' was mine in this instance, however, pray explain how all this 'free' healthcare, prescriptions, education etc etc, which, presumably the SNP will improve massively, is to be funded? This (possibly) pie-in-the-sky dream of a Scotland of the people and for the people is all well and good but I think that's a very poor reason, under the circumstances, to be chasing independence. I think people are entitled to know the practicalities (i.e. the truth on the costs) aside from the dream. That's for the SNP to detail and I've seen chuff all on the big, substantive, issues.

I'm not even going to get into figures with you as its all a case of which bunch of numbers you chose to believe. As for the explain part well the SNP have put forward what they believe to be their idea of how to support these issues in an independent Scotland, its no more believable or unbelievable than any other party manifesto for a general election. This vote isn't solely about the SNP though its about Scotland's independence and if we as nation think we have what it takes to rule ourselves as the SNP aren't always gonna be in power, other parties will come in and change policies shifting priorities for spending around.

I'm voting Yes but not for a political party but as someone who feels that Scotland should be deciding its own future the good and the bad, maybe and hopefully what comes with such a vote is less apathy to the political scene in such an independent country (that last part might just be a pipe dream though).

I think the momentum on the side of "yes" will be too great to stop now. Come on Scotland, get independence, sort out your own currency, and at long, long last England will be free of the torment of the Labour party.

And Cameron might not be Prime Minister any more!

I will be whistling Land of Hope and Glory all day if Salmond pulls it off.

The problem with that Duty is that the Scots will still be allowed to vote in the 2015 General Election and will vote in a Labour Government!

Can anyone answer why 16 year old kids are allowed to vote on this?

Scrumpy wrote:The problem with that Duty is that the Scots will still be allowed to vote in the 2015 General Election and will vote in a Labour Government!

Can anyone answer why 16 year old kids are allowed to vote on this?

One would hope that does not happen. And it should not happen, either. If Scotland went independent, they should keep their present serving parliamentary members until such time that they call their first election.

Brys wrote:I'm not even going to get into figures with you as its all a case of which bunch of numbers you chose to believe. As for the explain part well the SNP have put forward what they believe to be their idea of how to support these issues in an independent Scotland, its no more believable or unbelievable than any other party manifesto for a general election. This vote isn't solely about the SNP though its about Scotland's independence and if we as nation think we have what it takes to rule ourselves as the SNP aren't always gonna be in power, other parties will come in and change policies shifting priorities for spending around.

I'm voting Yes but not for a political party but as someone who feels that Scotland should be deciding its own future the good and the bad, maybe and hopefully what comes with such a vote is less apathy to the political scene in such an independent country (that last part might just be a pipe dream though).

Well said. Good luck to you if it's a 'yes', and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. I think there are more likely than not going to be some very choppy waters ahead for quite a while in that case. I simply think we're all better as the current UK.

Duty281 wrote:I think the momentum on the side of "yes" will be too great to stop now. Come on Scotland, get independence, sort out your own currency, and at long, long last England will be free of the torment of the Labour party.

And Cameron might not be Prime Minister any more!

I will be whistling Land of Hope and Glory all day if Salmond pulls it off.

You've always been a bit of a plonker though it seems to me .

It will happen.

Scots will be allowed to vote in our GE even if they go independent.
I get the feeling no one in power at Westminster took the Yes vote seriously until it was too late.

To try and give the Yes campaign a boost when it looked like faltering badly at the start.

Who better to vote for independance than a bunch of kids that are crying for it from their parents/school etc. Plus a big part of life at that point is grabbing as much independance as you can (getting a job, earning your own money, choosing your own path)

I don't like the bloke but a canny idea doing that.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I think the momentum on the side of "yes" will be too great to stop now. Come on Scotland, get independence, sort out your own currency, and at long, long last England will be free of the torment of the Labour party.

And Cameron might not be Prime Minister any more!

I will be whistling Land of Hope and Glory all day if Salmond pulls it off.

You've always been a bit of a plonker though it seems to me .

I assure you, my dear, the feeling is returned in kind.

Play nicely ladies and gents, that's why the threads get closed in the first place.

Derbymanc wrote:Play nicely ladies and gents, that's why the threads get closed in the first place.

You are right, I should not sink to that level.

I apologise.

navyblueshorts wrote:

Brys wrote:I'm not even going to get into figures with you as its all a case of which bunch of numbers you chose to believe. As for the explain part well the SNP have put forward what they believe to be their idea of how to support these issues in an independent Scotland, its no more believable or unbelievable than any other party manifesto for a general election. This vote isn't solely about the SNP though its about Scotland's independence and if we as nation think we have what it takes to rule ourselves as the SNP aren't always gonna be in power, other parties will come in and change policies shifting priorities for spending around.

I'm voting Yes but not for a political party but as someone who feels that Scotland should be deciding its own future the good and the bad, maybe and hopefully what comes with such a vote is less apathy to the political scene in such an independent country (that last part might just be a pipe dream though).

Well said. Good luck to you if it's a 'yes', and I don't mean that in a sarcastic way. I think there are more likely than not going to be some very choppy waters ahead for quite a while in that case. I simply think we're all better as the current UK.

Thanks. I think there's choppy waters ahead regardless of how we vote

Scrumpy wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:How many Euros do you get to the £ these days?

As of 15.04 today, about €1.25 although that's not the rate given to us at the banks. Dropped a bit on Monday from where it'd been.

Cheers.

Does anyone else think it will be a pain in the bum to have to go through border control once Scotland votes yes?

Nah, there'll be a border agreement like people move round Europe.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/why-labour-doesnt-need-scotland/

This is an interesting read on Scotland's effect on general elections of the past especially for Labour.

Duty281 wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I think the momentum on the side of "yes" will be too great to stop now. Come on Scotland, get independence, sort out your own currency, and at long, long last England will be free of the torment of the Labour party.

And Cameron might not be Prime Minister any more!

I will be whistling Land of Hope and Glory all day if Salmond pulls it off.

You've always been a bit of a plonker though it seems to me .

I assure you, my dear, the feeling is returned in kind.

Thank-you lovey. I expected nothing less .

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:

navyblueshorts wrote:

Scrumpy wrote:How many Euros do you get to the £ these days?

As of 15.04 today, about €1.25 although that's not the rate given to us at the banks. Dropped a bit on Monday from where it'd been.

Cheers.

Does anyone else think it will be a pain in the bum to have to go through border control once Scotland votes yes?

Nah, there'll be a border agreement like people move round Europe.

Scotland want to relax immigration laws if they vote yes, they have been warned that it will not be an open border if they choose to do that, so no it won't be like the rest of Europe! (this divorce will get messy)

On the plus side it will create a few more jobs.

I think it's going to be a bumpy ride if the Yes votes go through as I can see most of the MOD posts going back down south and the shipyards being farmed out around England. (I can see that being a big point in the G.E, vote for Labour we guarantee Pompey and Plymouth will be staying open due to the downsizing of Faslane etc)

RBS will move, as will many other businesses.

Is it really worth it,Giving Salmond the power that he so desires when you can vote for more powers by voting 'No' and keep all the good stuff about 'OUR' Union without the worries of what might be?

Mortgage lending in Scotland could 'dry up'
11-09-2014 | 07:00 | Print
Experts warned that mortgage lending in Scotland would dry up if there is a vote for independence in next week's referendum.

Lenders are concerned about what currency an independent Scotland would use, and the outlook for house prices north of the border if there is a yes vote.

Guardian 1

Banks may leave Scotland
11-09-2014 | 07:00 | Print
Lloyds Bank and the Royal Bank of Scotland both said they would move their headquarters from Scotland to England if there is a vote for independence in next week’s referendum.

Clydesdale Bank also said it would move south in the event of a yes vote.

Times 1
Daily Telegraph 1

It amazes me that people don't think Scotland can govern themselves.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:You seem a bit bitter....Secret....

Elaborate?

Because I put the question to others who put the question to the Scottish? Because I ask "Why?" That's bitter? No that's discussion. That's argument.

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:It amazes me that people don't think Scotland can govern themselves.

But they already do and are promised even more powers if they stay in the Union.

This is nothing more than a power trip for Salmond, this is all about him, don't be fooled!

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:It amazes me that people don't think Scotland can govern themselves.

Nobody has said they lack the ability to govern themselves.

People have simply questioned a) How?; and b) How will they finance it?

As the SNP have failed to provide a definitive answer to either question so far.

Osbourne has ruled out them having the pound hasn't he ?? Just in case scotland causes a run on it down the line..

Salmond's whole policy base is on having the pound..

Yes - A mess..

navyblueshorts wrote:

SecretFly wrote:"Why do you want Independence?" seems to be the cry of some.  As in "You know nothing will work without us - not the Health service, not Education, not Security, not your Oil Industry...nothing will work without us being there to control and regulate it, Salmond is talking crap, you know he's talking crap...and yet you lot still want to vote for Independence??"

I'd ask a question of the questioners.  And seek a Genuine Answer:  "Why do you lot want us(Scottish)?  You don't need us, you run things better, you laugh at us, you have all the money, all the people, all the brains, all the UK kudos (ie, foreigners identifying the UK as somehow something that happens to mostly English people in England )  Why the hell do you lot want us?  What's in it for you?  And please - no emotion - no 'because we love yous' "  That's what I'd ask if I was Scottish.

Ooo! That would be clever - pity no-one has come up with that one yet. Who knows? In no particular order: oil, tourism, whisky, engineering, current and historical contribution to what's generally considered an excellent armed forces, advantages to all from economies of scale, diversities of opinion etc.

So the English want what's best for them in the equation of Union with Scotland?  
Grand.  There's the truth.  
Everyone is looking out for Numero Uno.  Just as it should be.  But that's the only true story in town.  
The English (some of them) are saying "We want you (Scottish) because it helps us and serves our interests"  
The Scottish (some of them) are saying "Correct.  We Scots benefit from being linked together with England"  
The Scottish (some of them) are saying:  "We want to help ourselves, thanks.  Happy to be firends and all, and trade and all - but controlling our own destiny will serve our interests better" (ie, actually quite a similar argument to the Conservatives as they use it in relation to the EU; an irony many Cionservatives don't seem to notice)
The English (some of them) are saying "We don't give a shyte and are prepared to accept that Scotland might go its own way and we'll all adapt to the change."

Anyway - that's it.  Self interest is the only game in town.  I guess, apart from all the often heated discussion, the only thing that means anything now is the vote and the decision.

Scrumpy wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:It amazes me that people don't think Scotland can govern themselves.

But they already do and are promised even more powers if they stay in the Union.

This is nothing more than a power trip for Salmond, this is all about him, don't be fooled!

But if they Governed themselves they'd already be an Independent country. Who is 'promising' them more 'powers'?

Aren't you interested in the finer detail Secret fly ??

One thing having independence...........Another to not have a clue What you're going to do once you get it.......

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Aren't you interested in the finer detail Secret fly ??

One thing having independence...........Another to not have a clue What you're going to do once you get it.......

Well this is typical of the argument against Nations that seek independence from imperial rule.

How about aiding and helping newly independent Nations. Why not work together instead of division?

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:It amazes me that people don't think Scotland can govern themselves.

Nobody has said they lack the ability to govern themselves.

People have simply questioned a) How?; and b) How will they finance it?

As the SNP have failed to provide a definitive answer to either question so far.

"How" starts when it happens. Look at Israel. Surrounded by enemies on all sides and slap bang in the middle of a desert. After WW11 many people might have rightly asked "How?" under such unpromising circumstances. But "How" happens nonetheless. "How" is quite a resilient chap when he puts his mind to it.

SecretFly wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:It amazes me that people don't think Scotland can govern themselves.

Nobody has said they lack the ability to govern themselves.

People have simply questioned a) How?; and b) How will they finance it?

As the SNP have failed to provide a definitive answer to either question so far.

"How" starts when it happens.  Look at Israel.  Surrounded by enemies on all sides and slap bang in the middle of a desert.  After WW11 many people might have rightly asked "How?" under such unpromising circumstances.  But "How" happens nonetheless.  "How" is quite a resilient chap when he puts his mind to it.

What an argument...

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Aren't you interested in the finer detail Secret fly ??

One thing having independence...........Another to not have a clue What you're going to do once you get it.......

Well this is typical of the argument against Nations that seek independence from imperial rule.

How about aiding and helping newly independent Nations. Why not work together instead of division?

So a nation that doesn't want to work as part of a team with you for the vested interest..

Should get aid and help....

Britain should help itself...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Aren't you interested in the finer detail Secret fly ??

One thing having independence...........Another to not have a clue What you're going to do once you get it.......

The Finer Detail MUST come, if Scotland become Independent.  It MUST come.  Nobody can evade that truth WHEN and IF Scotland vote for Independence.  

But............... the referendum is not a treaty, not a group of treaties and not a blueprint for Governance...it is a plebicite on what Scottish people want - a continued Union with England, Wales and NI or to go it alone.  

The referendum isn't a treaty outlining how Scotland will operate.  All that detail comes after - not before - Scottish people actually decide what they want to do.  The detail work follows after the decision to go it alone not before that decision.

Don't you think people should see the detail first....

Bet you were the first to moan about Blair's lack of plan for post-Hussein when he invaded Iraq !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ONETWOFOREVER wrote:It amazes me that people don't think Scotland can govern themselves.

Nobody has said they lack the ability to govern themselves.

People have simply questioned a) How?; and b) How will they finance it?

As the SNP have failed to provide a definitive answer to either question so far.

"How" starts when it happens.  Look at Israel.  Surrounded by enemies on all sides and slap bang in the middle of a desert.  After WW11 many people might have rightly asked "How?" under such unpromising circumstances.  But "How" happens nonetheless.  "How" is quite a resilient chap when he puts his mind to it.

What an argument...

America sat down and had a long number of years discussion with the British on "How" they'd run things on their own, about "How" they'd exist, when they decided to go it alone, didn't they?

Nope, they just up and decided for themselves that enough is enough, time to run things on our own.... time to dump the British tax laws into Boston Harbour

It was a war and America has slightly more in the way of assets..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Don't you think people should see the detail first....Bet you were the first to moan about Blair's lack of plan for post-Hussein when he invaded Iraq !!  

What detail? Where could the detail come from? Only a newly Independent Nation has the authority to decide then how they advance themselves by discussion and treaties with other Independent Nations - one of them being the remains of the UK itself. Scotland can't have treaties and such discussions UNLESS it is first a Nation. The detail comes after - regardless of how you seem to think Scotland's relationship with the world around it should already be there in fine-print before Independence happens. Nope - Independence is a sequence of agreements and treaties and business relationships with other Independent Nations. That comes after.

You're just being silly........

Osbourne say's he's not having the pound..........Salmond hasn't got a plan B.........

William Wallace had more idea !!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:It was a war and America has slightly more in the way of assets..

You are again saying Scotland 'Can't' exist on its own without England. You are not even asking "How", you are declaring it Can't. America decided the emotional draw from Independence was a good start... that's the point. They hadn't their White House or their Foreign Policy...just a deep certainty that they no longer wanted to be part of the British Empire. I'll bet some wig in London was asking your very same questions; "But HOW? Where's the Detail?"

Latest survation poll....

Yes 47 % ...............No 53 %...........

Think as the Election draws near people are thinking with the head and not the heart perhaps..