Indy Ref

by **Notch** Wed 17 Sep 2014, 10:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

George Carlin wrote: v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).

If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.

It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:

1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?

2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.

If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.

What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.

Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

by ME-109 Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:03 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
ME-109 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Auck, IIRC the Union flag is made of the Cross of St George(English red cross on white), the Soltire(Scotland) & the Irish Soltire(N Ireland red diagonal cross on white). Wales doesnt have any input as considered part of England. The UK is The Union of Kingdoms of England, Scotland & Nortern Ireland.

Thanks broadland, I never appreciated that, even though I shouldnt have been so lazy and just googled it.

Correction. It is St Patricks Saltire. not the "Irish Saltire". The Northern Ireland flag is officially the Union Jack.

The St Patricks Saltire is the flag of the Order of St Patrick which was set up in 1783 by George 3rd and was incorporated into the the Union flag in 1800 after the act of union.

Wow you guys have so much history its amazing. back in those days Australia was full of convicts and New Zealand was full of escaped convicts.

A lot of them Irish who probably didnt like the idea of the St Patricks Saltire and the act of union... Whistle

by broadlandboy Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:05 pm

ME hence why I put IIRC & then added Wiki page.

by SecretFly Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:05 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Wow you guys have so much history its amazing. back in those days Australia was full of convicts and New Zealand was full of escaped convicts.

Oh that's the places where potato stealers from Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland were sent for their holdiays Wink

I hear many of them decided to stay and have made good for themselves...

by broadlandboy Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:08 pm

auck, NZ & Aus have as long history it is just that the indigenous people handed it down verbaly rather than written & mostly got lost when the Europeans arrived.

by aucklandlaurie Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
Wow you guys have so much history its amazing. back in those days Australia was full of convicts and New Zealand was full of escaped convicts.

Oh that's the places where potato stealers from Ireland, Wales, England and Scotland were sent for their holdiays I hear many of them decided to stay and have made good for themselves...

Too true Fly and Ive got the Irish surname to prove it.But we never stole any spuds, high class crims us, the great great great etc pinched a sheep.

by ME-109 Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:15 pm

The head of YouGov has said he is 99% certain of a "No" vote....based on a type of Exit Poll....seems fairly confident in this

by SecretFly Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:20 pm

NO has been the message for 99% of the entire campaign. The little blip a week or two ago was the only alternate view.

SO ----- it's certainly going to be a big shock if YES snatch it. I do think the NO people are and always have been quiety content that they have it. So - it's going to hit them hard if they're wrong. They acted panicked to keep the NO campaign going on fear but I'm not sure they really ever believed they'd lose.

by ME-109 Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:25 pm

I still think its going to be very close...

by Gibson Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:29 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA6cnXFiE6I

by HammerofThunor Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:35 pm

YouGov have asked 1800 people after voting and it's 54% NO. Guess that's done then

by SecretFly Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:36 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA6cnXFiE6I

..but a few of those guys voted NO and want to retain the Flower of God Save the Queen

by SecretFly Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:38 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:YouGov have asked 1800 people after voting and it's 54% NO. Guess that's done then

Would Salmond have told his Yes voters to say they voted No to pollsters to be mischevous??? Wink

Those crafty Scots wouldn't be beyond that.

by HammerofThunor Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:53 pm

Don't know if he would but I would

by broadlandboy Fri 19 Sep 2014, 12:05 am

One of the questions I would have like answered by the YES is the claim that they are going to have the greenest energy policy paid for by oil.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 12:08 am

broadlandboy wrote:One of the questions I would have like answered by the YES is the claim that they are going to have the greenest energy policy paid for by oil.

Oil paying for it's own funeral........... it's a simple equation when you think about it. Using oil revenues to invest in replacement technologies. The technologies need financing.

by broadlandboy Fri 19 Sep 2014, 12:14 am

Its the oxymoran of using oil(not green) to pay for the new utopia but claiming to have a green energy policy.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 12:22 am

broadlandboy wrote:Its the oxymoran of using oil(not green) to pay for the new utopia but claiming to have a green energy policy.

It may not please the ideals of Hippies and Tree Huggers (people I like BTW!) but it's still the truth of how that works...everywhere.
Everywhere that is experimenting and developing green energy and systems is using ancient old seabed microbes that have turned to oil to get there. Old fossil fuels are giving the energy and often the materials used to promote a Green future.

So, if the SNP are honest about how it works, so be it - don't shoot honesty simply because they don't produce a fantasy that at this point in green evolution, green energy provides the tools to produce green technologies - they don't...not yet. Indeed, I'm not so sure that purity of Greeness will ever be viable.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 12:45 am

This ridiculous bull that goes on about Andy Murray declaring he wanted a YES - brought up now on Scottish TV when they should be getting on with the detailed voting chat.

He seems to have committed sacriliege by giving his opinion and not staying quiet like the Queen. Even the Queen didn't stay quiet. Many celebrities and sports people have declared their decisions, what's so special about Murray that he was pressurised into holding his tongue. He had his aspirations and he admitted to them. His right.

by Sin é Fri 19 Sep 2014, 12:55 am

ME-109 wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote:
broadlandboy wrote:Auck, IIRC the Union flag is made of the Cross of St George(English red cross on white), the Soltire(Scotland) & the Irish Soltire(N Ireland red diagonal cross on white). Wales doesnt have any input as considered part of England. The UK is The Union of Kingdoms of England, Scotland & Nortern Ireland.

Thanks broadland, I never appreciated that, even though I shouldnt have been so lazy and just googled it.

Correction. It is St Patricks Saltire. not the "Irish Saltire". The Northern Ireland flag is officially the Union Jack.

The St Patricks Saltire is the flag of the Order of St Patrick which was set up in 1783 by George 3rd and was incorporated into the the Union flag in 1800 after the act of union.

It was initially the Coat of Arms of the FitzGeralds / Earls of Desmond / Geraldines - dates from 1300s.

Maurice FitzThomas FitzGerald, 1st Earl of Desmond (died 25 January 1356 in Dublin Castle, Dublin, Ireland[1]) was an Irish nobleman in the Peerage of Ireland, Captain of Desmond Castle in Kinsale, so-called ruler of Munster, and for a short time Lord Justice of Ireland. He led a rebellion against the Crown, and was suspected of aiming to make himself King of Ireland, but he was ultimately restored to favour.

http://www.houseofnames.com/Fitzgerald-coat-of-arms

by broadlandboy Fri 19 Sep 2014, 12:57 am

But that is the point, they haven't been honest. They say they are going to have a green energy policy with 100% renewable yet they say their socially equal utopia will be paid for by oil exports.

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 1:09 am

Apparently the YES guys are sad and NO guys are happy.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 1:14 am

broadlandboy wrote:But that is the point, they haven't been honest. They say they are going to have a green energy policy with 100% renewable yet they say their socially equal utopia will be paid for by oil exports.

broadband............ how come you only see dishonesty in promises you don't support. I'll repeat, the logic is correct when they say oil exports could pay for green policies. It's not dishonest, it's not a lie. It's a truth not disguised in gush language.

If they said they will have a green energy policy and finished the sentence there. What would people like you say then? You'd ask "How are you going to fund this? Come clean and tell us! It's oil, isn't it!

Yes, it would be oil so the SNP say it. It doesn't change the fact that oil is central - central - in both funding and in energy and materials, to the green industry. There's no getting away from it. You can't pretend a robust green policy (either in practice or projection plans) can exist if you claim oil isn't involved in the equation.

So if SNP are banned from using the link between oil and a robust green policy, then other states and other parties and parties you yourself perhaps support can't promote any of their 'Green' policies either. Because according to you, they would also be dishonest - all of them - because all nations either use oil, sell oil or purchase oil to fund and/or actually produce their green policies.

There is just no way around the truth of this relationship. So if SNP lie, so do parties you vote for and have voted for in the past.

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 1:16 am

I thought we had already established they all lie all the time.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 1:21 am

It seems only the SNP lie all the time. The others only tell truths that might not happen if there are negotiations that would make them liars, and so are not to blame if their truths turn out to be lies.
Blame negotiations for NO lies - blame SNP for YES lies.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 1:26 am

Uh oh!!! fire alarm in Dundee!

Hmmm....................... watch those boxes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Suspicious

by Gibson Fri 19 Sep 2014, 1:37 am

Its not looking good for us Celts. The English power over the Scots, and the Welsh, is still far too strong for them to resist it.

I'm so glad we fought and died for it.

But, I still believe in miracles. Fingers Crossed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFkmRp_G2uo

Word.

by GLove39 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 2:01 am

Very disappointing to see that 20% of Aberdeen and 25% of Glasgow didn't bother to vote. Biggest collective decision of our lives, can't fathom the logic behind that.

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 2:03 am

Gibson wrote:Its not looking good for us Celts. The English power over the Scots, and the Welsh, is still far too strong for them to resist it.

I'm so glad we fought and died for it.

But, I still believe in miracles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFkmRp_G2uo

Word.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 2:37 am

I'm wilting here............... bed beckons. 2.30 and still only two small counts..........................................

An Independent Scotland would I'm sure invent a quicker system - using green energy of course Wink

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 2:41 am

Electoral irregularities?! My eyelids have risen a bit again...................... not much though

by GLove39 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 3:26 am

"A haggis in every pot" our 1 UKIP MEP proving what an arse he is and embarrassing himself live on air.

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 3:32 am

And those guys may gain more power of time [shudder]

It all sounds like everyone thinks NO's won it.

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 4:13 am

49% Yes 51% No after 9

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 4:22 am

Right, I'm going to bed. 47% Yes after 12

by GLove39 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 4:35 am

Well over 200 people so far have spoiled their votes by putting a cross in each box picard

by aucklandlaurie Fri 19 Sep 2014, 5:47 am

I dont know how much interest there is around the rest of the World, but here I am 10,000 miles away with two channels broadcasting it live (CNN & BBC).

by aucklandlaurie Fri 19 Sep 2014, 5:59 am

GLove39 wrote:Well over 200 people so far have spoiled their votes by putting a cross in each box

I love the way they give reasons for the spoilt/invalid votes.but you do have to wonder the reasons for ticking two boxes in a YES/NO referendum.

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:32 am

Because they wanted to vote but didn't know which way.

by Jimpy Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:45 am

Damn, it looks like we're stuck with you Jocks now :-)

by HammerofThunor Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:58 am

At least we have the fun over the three leaders sticking to their vague pledge.

by **Notch** Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:01 am

They say that governments should be afraid of their people. Last week or so, they were blydi terrified. Let's see what direction that fear pushes them in.

by LordDowlais Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:19 am

Oh well, it's done, back to talking about rugby now then, but heres a thought for some people, I called my cousin, who lives in Kilmarnock this morning, I asked him how the mood was up there, he said everything seems the same, BUT, it was very tense over thae past few days, the polls were close, but the talk up there is, that GORDON BROWN of all people swung the votes in favour of NO with a speach so passionate that even his voice was quavering at times, I have not seen this speach, I will have to look fir it, but I did not know Gordon Brown had any passion in him, let alone enough to divide a nation.

by **RDW** Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:26 am

Well thank God that is over - never been so nervous in my life.

55%/45% is a lot bigger margin than anyone imagined, and the fact that only 4 councils voted Yes is also a surprise. There are a lot of overwhelming No votes in a lot of councils as well.

I'm no political expert, but the fact that over 60% of Edinburgh (the financial hub of Scotland) and 60% of Aberdeen (the oil and gas hub of Scotland) voted No suggests that the most contentious part of the debate - the economy - just didn't win over the people involved in those industries. It is a bit of a generalising of the makeup of those cities, but you hopefully see my point.

Also surprised that the Highlands, Perth and Stirling were No (and comfortably so in the latter two) given the historical significant of those areas in all things independence related.

Gordon Brown is reasonably well thought of in Scotland, and I suspect he was a big reason Fife voted No (again, surprisingly).

by Jimpy Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:28 am

It's all been worth it to see the look on Toad Man's face this morning. Scotland has rejected divisive and nationalist politics in favour of unity. Common sense has prevailed.

by **RDW** Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:31 am

Also, did that Panelbase poll that suggested a Yes vote actually work against the Yes campaign? It prompted Westminster to up the anti and bring out the big guns. If the polls had ticked along with a regular No vote that might not have happened so much.

I don't think it would have affected the overall decision, but might have swayed more voters.

by Adam D Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:47 am

RDW_Scotland wrote:Also surprised that the Highlands, Perth and Stirling were No (and comfortably so in the latter two) given the historical significant of those areas in all things independence related.

I'm guessing that as Prudential is Stirlings largest employer, that might have had an effect on things?

by LordDowlais Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:28 am

I have just watched Gordon Brown's speach, and good God the boy did well, you could see he meant every word and his passion for the well being of Scotland runs through his very soul, by christ, I wish he was like that when he was in charge of all of us.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:31 am

Fantastic outcome - huge turnout with separation being rejected. A proud day for Scotland and the United Kingdom.

Now, what to do with Glasgow and Dundee. I'd suggest we just build a wall and hose them down twice daily.

by Jimpy Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:58 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Fantastic outcome - huge turnout with separation being rejected. A proud day for Scotland and the United Kingdom.

Now, what to do with Glasgow and Dundee. I'd suggest we just build a wall and hose them down twice daily.

It is a great result for the UK, but what of the aftermath?

Salmond still has two years in tenure, I suspect he will use that time to negotiate a fairer deal for Scotland. He ought to resign. Despite the outcome, he's suceeded in dividing the Scotish people, will those divisions ever be mended? Distasteful Nationalists like him thrive on the discord they create and he still has 1.6 million supporters (seemingly). The referendum may have some positive outcomes for both sides, a more federal UK would seem to make sense, devolving some control from Westminster. But surely, the single greatest outcome, apart from crushing the nationalists in Scotland will be that we are unlikely to be ruined by another Labour government for the foreseeable future, their support in Scotland has melted away. The economy is recovering, unemployment is falling, our influence in Europe is growing. It's time to carry on with the rebuilding and keep Salmond in his box, along with Milliband and Co.

by tigertattie Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:58 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:Fantastic outcome - huge turnout with separation being rejected. A proud day for Scotland and the United Kingdom.

Now, what to do with Glasgow and Dundee. I'd suggest we just build a wall and hose them down twice daily.

give em independence and tell them to leave the rest of us alone!

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