Indy Ref

by **Notch** Wed 17 Sep 2014, 10:09 pm

First topic message reminder :

George Carlin wrote: v
Let me start this off, then. I have printed and read all literature which either side has published on this debate over the past 2 years (including the main policy papers from the SNP and from Better Together/UK Treasury and the Wee Blue Book).

If I had the chance, I would think hard about it, but ultimately I think that I would vote 'no'.

It seems to me, with my pea brain, that:

1. As a professional economist, Alex Salmond has had his entire political and professional life to make a waterproof financial case for an independent Scotland. Provided that there isn't something I've missed, I cannot see that he has done so. How can we still be fishing for answers to very fundemental questions so close to the actual voting date? Surely if it was the case that Scotland had a solid long term financial future, there would be a far greater volume of published consensus? If the financial case for independence cannot be clearly and verifiably made (without optimistic financial projects which strain credulity), then this is where this debate begins and ends for me. What do we tell our kids otherwise?

2. I entirely understand and appreciate that stepping into the unknown cannot in itself be a reason to say 'no'. You cannot have opportunity without risk. However, is anyone else disappointed with the quality of verifiable information that has been made available to us throughout this entire debate? Whilst I don't expect all answers to all questions, surely it is better to err on the side of caution until such time as policy can be firmly established.

If this was a trial, the verdict would be 'not proven'.

What I don't believe is if Scotland votes no, the chance to do so again would be lost forever. I think that we may see another vote on this topic within a generation (20 years) if a 'no' vote does not have a clear majority amongst Scottish people. I would be happy with that.

Discuss. For the love of feck, please be nice.

by Cyril Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:23 pm

Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:It's just annoying because James McCarthy and Aiden McGeady are really good. We have plenty of completely average players who I would be perfectly happy for them to discover an Irish soul!

Well maybe if you discovered a Scottish soul, they might have hung around

I got an Irish soul free with a pint of Guinness. Unfortunately the glass had a craic in it so I sent it back.

I'm not surprised. Guinness is now a British owned company. Its Irish soul is long gone.
Even the much-praised commercials were created by a Brit.

Praised by who? Carlsberg & Heineken do way better ads.

I swear you argue with yourself when everyone goes to bed Laugh

by Gibson Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:25 pm

Notch wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Notch wrote:Whats most interesting to me is this graphic;

https://twitter.com/HereInScotland/status/512915502076014592/photo/1

14% of SNP voters from 2011 voted NO. 5% of Tory voters from 2011 voted YES.

Fascinating to imagine their journey.

Amazing stats there....really shows Salmond's 16-17 year old stat to be what exactly it stood for.... nothing to do with democracy at all.

16-17 years

71% yes. 12% points more than the next best age group.

Says it all.

That just means they are as useful to YES as old people to the NO vote. I'm not gonna side with Innocence over Experience or vice versa. We need both.

Wise words from a youngfella. At all levels mo chara. At all levels.

<DressedOrange>

by Cyril Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:26 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cyril wrote:
SecretFly wrote:I was crucified earlier for isolating 'England' within the UK for special attention. It ain't just 'England' was the retort for me.
Yet the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland paused outside Number 10 in Downing Street, London to specifically highlight 'England' as a particular interest for him in the oncoming reorganisation of the United Kingdom.

????

Hmmm............. Scotland loses Independence and allows 'England' to gain it? Wouldn't an Independent Scotland have effected that solution quicker?
No, he's saying that Scotland, England, Wales and NI should be granted powers at the same pace.

Nope...he paused for 'England' alone. Special mention. The special baby that requires to be soothed more than possibly others as it was most disturbed by the potential exit of a spoiled blue child out of its pram.

Nope, Cyril, I'm afraid your explanation won't work. England was paused on as a special case in his mind. Which was Salmond's argument for Independence all along - too big of a Father figure lurking within the Union and having too much influence as Union overlord.

Guy on BBC now talking about England's "Independence"!!! You couldn't write some of this stuff if you were trying to write a good novel. Scotland might actually get its Independence by in fact England stepping away from the Union first!

Fly, your posting is starting to become vaguely unpleasant and just having a pop at England now.

I've leave it there and go back to the rugby

by **Notch** Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:29 pm

Gibson wrote:
Notch wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Notch wrote:Whats most interesting to me is this graphic;

https://twitter.com/HereInScotland/status/512915502076014592/photo/1

14% of SNP voters from 2011 voted NO. 5% of Tory voters from 2011 voted YES.

Fascinating to imagine their journey.

Amazing stats there....really shows Salmond's 16-17 year old stat to be what exactly it stood for.... nothing to do with democracy at all.

16-17 years

71% yes. 12% points more than the next best age group.

Says it all.

That just means they are as useful to YES as old people to the NO vote. I'm not gonna side with Innocence over Experience or vice versa. We need both.

Wise words from a youngfella. At all levels mo chara. At all levels.

<DressedOrange>

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:34 pm

Cyril wrote:Fly, your posting is starting to become vaguely unpleasant and just having a pop at England now.

I've leave it there and go back to the rugby

Nope. You just know I told the truth - about images on TV that can't be denied. I was accused of elaborating on a word earlier - I'm simply regaining a moral highground by saying so do others. I'm not dumb.
Yep, we'll leave it there.

by aucklandlaurie Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:41 pm

A new day dawns, today us Kiwis go to the polls, could someone in Scotland remind Sean Maitland he has to do it again.

by Sin é Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:44 pm

Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:It's just annoying because James McCarthy and Aiden McGeady are really good. We have plenty of completely average players who I would be perfectly happy for them to discover an Irish soul!

Well maybe if you discovered a Scottish soul, they might have hung around

I got an Irish soul free with a pint of Guinness. Unfortunately the glass had a craic in it so I sent it back.

I'm not surprised. Guinness is now a British owned company. Its Irish soul is long gone.
Even the much-praised commercials were created by a Brit.

Praised by who? Carlsberg & Heineken do way better ads.

I swear you argue with yourself when everyone goes to bed

The reality of the situation is that Guinness is losing market share in Ireland. Sponsoring the Pro 12 (and not some creative British advertising) is an effort to combat that.

by Cyril Fri 19 Sep 2014, 7:50 pm

Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:It's just annoying because James McCarthy and Aiden McGeady are really good. We have plenty of completely average players who I would be perfectly happy for them to discover an Irish soul!

Well maybe if you discovered a Scottish soul, they might have hung around

I got an Irish soul free with a pint of Guinness. Unfortunately the glass had a craic in it so I sent it back.

I'm not surprised. Guinness is now a British owned company. Its Irish soul is long gone.
Even the much-praised commercials were created by a Brit.

Praised by who? Carlsberg & Heineken do way better ads.

I swear you argue with yourself when everyone goes to bed

The reality of the situation is that Guinness is losing market share in Ireland. Sponsoring the Pro 12 (and not some creative British advertising) is an effort to combat that.

I might not like the drink but Guinness knew how to create pieces of art (or get advertising companies to do the job). Heineken and Carlsburg are 'laddish' and just based on puns/broad humour. I guess it depends what you like.

by **Notch** Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:23 pm

aucklandlaurie wrote:
A new day dawns, today us Kiwis go to the polls, could someone in Scotland remind Sean Maitland he has to do it again.

by Sin é Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:35 pm

Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:
Sin é wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:It's just annoying because James McCarthy and Aiden McGeady are really good. We have plenty of completely average players who I would be perfectly happy for them to discover an Irish soul!

Well maybe if you discovered a Scottish soul, they might have hung around

I got an Irish soul free with a pint of Guinness. Unfortunately the glass had a craic in it so I sent it back.

I'm not surprised. Guinness is now a British owned company. Its Irish soul is long gone.
Even the much-praised commercials were created by a Brit.

Praised by who? Carlsberg & Heineken do way better ads.

I swear you argue with yourself when everyone goes to bed

The reality of the situation is that Guinness is losing market share in Ireland. Sponsoring the Pro 12 (and not some creative British advertising) is an effort to combat that.

I might not like the drink but Guinness knew how to create pieces of art (or get advertising companies to do the job). Heineken and Carlsburg are 'laddish' and just based on puns/broad humour. I guess it depends what you like.

Can you name some of the ad campaigns that you thought were great?

For the record, you do realise that Arthur's Day has been dropped.

by doctor_grey Fri 19 Sep 2014, 8:55 pm

Why is this thread named "INDY REF"?
I don't get the reference.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:06 pm

It was orignially Independent Referees...

which was a thread about Referees being allowed to continue to choose their own winners or whether they should be told who to let win by the Home side officals.

by doctor_grey Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:11 pm

Thanks - but what does that have to do with Scotland and the vote?

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:13 pm

What does Scotland and a vote have to do with rugby?

Some Scottish Referendum chatters just highjacked this one because it was a similar sounding title.....

by doctor_grey Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:18 pm

OK. The ultimate thread hijack: Referees to the fate of Scotland. Hmmm. Sounds close.....

I thought I saw a link sending me here after the other thread was locked (why was it locked?).

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:28 pm

Because three of us got into a knife fight...the passions you know of the debate and internet chat. And I was wounded in the knee. Complained to the mods and they closed the thread down....just in time too as I was getting mad and out for revenge.

by **Notch** Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:39 pm

He used to be a Yes, but then he took a knife in the knee.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:46 pm

A knife in the knee would change anyone's opinions! - especially on an Independent Scottish Health Service.
I changed to NO.

Beshocked was the knifer. And I'll admit I head-butted, fa0019. But that was only because I was explaining how a Glasgow YES chap might celebrate if he won.

by MrsP Fri 19 Sep 2014, 9:46 pm

I made the same mistake about the subject of this thread. But then I worked it out!

by Sin é Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:11 pm

Rioting in Glasgow. Amazing media are not reporting it.

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:12 pm

where are you hearing about it?

by Sin é Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:13 pm

SecretFly wrote:where are you hearing about it?

Munster fan living in Glasgow. Twitter has it as well.

edit: it seems to be the kind of rioting you get in NI - sectarian.

by MrsP Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:23 pm

Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:where are you hearing about it?

Munster fan living in Glasgow. Twitter has it as well.

edit: it seems to be the kind of rioting you get in NI - sectarian.

Is there a type of rioting in Cork between groups who agree with each other?

by Sin é Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:25 pm

MrsP wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:where are you hearing about it?

Munster fan living in Glasgow. Twitter has it as well.

edit: it seems to be the kind of rioting you get in NI - sectarian.

Is there a type of rioting in Cork between groups who agree with each other?

Cork isn't big into rioting - can't remember there ever being a riot there.

edit: the last riot in the ROI was the 'Love Ulster' stuff in Dublin.

by ME-109 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:31 pm

The only rioting in cork is because Tipp are in the all Ireland final. Otherwise we are quite content ...thanks mrsp

by SecretFly Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:33 pm

Whatever rioting there is - if it's serious enough then the networks seem to be again reneging on their duty to tell the story. Afterall, we DO see it if it's happening in the North. The narrative of this one seems to be that All have voted and All is well.

by ME-109 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:35 pm

MrsP wrote:
Sin é wrote:
SecretFly wrote:where are you hearing about it?

Munster fan living in Glasgow. Twitter has it as well.

edit: it seems to be the kind of rioting you get in NI - sectarian.

Is there a type of rioting in Cork between groups who agree with each other?

Stop press...northerner accuses southerners of rioting...discovers its a game of hurling. When asked about this says she thought its what hurleys were for....

by Sin é Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:43 pm

Daily Mail reporting it now.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762876/Union-flag-waving-demonstrators-make-Nazi-salute-Glasgow-victory-celebrations-Police-separate-rival-groups-tension-increases.html

by LeinsterFan4life Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:44 pm

Anyone else see the breakdown of the results? It seems like it was the people worried about their pensions that voted no.

by ME-109 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:47 pm

Ah sure ....as expected the Scots don't have the balls to go it alone

by MrsP Fri 19 Sep 2014, 10:58 pm

From that report it would appear that the ones who got their way are doing the rioting?

Imagine if they had lost!

by ME-109 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 11:00 pm

Just as a caveat on that last comment...all (or at least a big majority) of Irish people look at this and see a nation (in inverted commas) too afraid to look at self determination as a possible means of a future existence. The effing Luxembourgers' are independent for f...ks sake.

You want to be British then don't give us this crap about being in a union of nations..wgat the fu.. Makes you different from a Bavarian or a Frisian or a Catalan or a Basque.

Hence the question..why have different (let's pretend we are different sports teams) countries in sport. Go check your passport to see what it says

by LeinsterFan4life Fri 19 Sep 2014, 11:08 pm

ME-109 wrote:Just as a caveat on that last comment...all (or at least a big majority) of Irish people look at this and see a nation (in inverted commas) too afraid to look at self determination as a possible means of a future existence. The effing Luxembourgers' are independent for f...ks sake.

You want to be British then don't give us this crap about being in a union of nations..wgat the fu.. Makes you different from a Bavarian or a Frisian or a Catalan or a Basque.

Hence the question..why have different (let's pretend we are different sports teams) countries in sport. Go check your passport to see what it says

TBF if Catalonia was given the chance to get independence they would! The damn Spanish governemnet won't let the them as they are worth too much money.

by ME-109 Fri 19 Sep 2014, 11:22 pm

At least the Catalans would probably go for it. Instead of the mealy mouthed reasons the Scots gave for voting no

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 5:48 am

ME-109 wrote:Just as a caveat on that last comment...all (or at least a big majority) of Irish people look at this and see a nation (in inverted commas) too afraid to look at self determination as a possible means of a future existence. The effing Luxembourgers' are independent for f...ks sake.

You want to be British then don't give us this crap about being in a union of nations..wgat the fu.. Makes you different from a Bavarian or a Frisian or a Catalan or a Basque.

Hence the question..why have different (let's pretend we are different sports teams) countries in sport. Go check your passport to see what it says

Their passport says 'European Union' and 'United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. The second bit is loaded with several different identities already.

Scotland is a nation no matter what happens. They have their own legal system, education system, healthcare system, their own sports teams and a distinct political culture which is different to the rest of the UK- they already have many degrees of independence and no desire to give any of them back. They may well continue to drift away from the mainstream UK, but they never had any desire to integrate completely. They are too economically interdependent to leave, too different to stay.

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 5:50 am

MrsP wrote:From that report it would appear that the ones who got their way are doing the rioting?

Imagine if they had lost!

The same Unionist/Loyalist headbangers that do all the nonsense rioting over here. half expect to see Willie Frazer pop up in fancy dress Rolling Eyes

What we're dealing with here is the far right coming back out from under their rocks to police everyones national identity. Major a**holes

Let's just remember what unites us is more than what divides us. And the thing that unites us, of course, is a general frustration with Windows 8. It's terrible.

by 21st Century Schizoid Man Sat 20 Sep 2014, 8:55 am

Still mightily depressed but not surprised and now all the lies given by the Establishment come home to roost. Anyway thanks to all the English, Irish, Welsh, NZ Aus and French friends for supporting the vision of an independent Scotland. Also the people of Catalonia who were amazing throughout - people who have more backbone than the 28 local authority areas in Scotland. Unfortunately they didn't have a vote!

We lost because of the geriatric vote, rank cowardice by many and the lousy, rotten British Establishment uniting against Scottish interest. Big business always backs the right and opposes all self-determination viz. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco so no real surprise there. As for the media- well and truly got at by the Establishment.

Salmond and Sturgeon were superb throughout the campaign and Eck should stay but I can see what his thoughts are.

As a final feck you to a particularly ungrateful Edinburgh - move the Scottish Parliament through to Glasgow with immediate effect. They can have the Orange Order and Rangers. The Orange Order can march up and down at the Tattoo at Luvvie Castle as that is all that seems to happen once a year anyway. Rangers go to The Library (Murrayfield) and we get to use Ibrox for big games. Brotheltown can keep the rubbish parliament building - use it for poetry woklshops or whatever- and also keep their crappy overpriced tram system.

Well done Dundee, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dunbartonshire - the rest should hold their heads in shame.

Sorry for the rant Mods but its my last post on 606v2 you will be glad to know Been a blast over the last 4 years and I have made some good friends (one was even a no voter ffs) who I will keep in touch with.

The Dream Will Never Die

Adios amigos

by sensisball Sat 20 Sep 2014, 9:29 am

Sorry to see you go Schiz you have posted many hilarious and often informative posts.
However, on your last post, as a no voter with two young kids and a future, based in the reality of financial uncertainty and an unstable world to think about i resent being called a coward. Just because YES lost, and lost big, doesnt give you the right to throw the toys out of the pram and slag off your fellow countrymen. I suppose cowardice is a more emotional tag to label someone with than simply being a realist who has a basic understanding of maths and knows bullshi££ when i smell it.
Politics 101: The bigger the promises made by a political party the bigger the lies and half truths they are spinning. For instance Salmond promised to fulfill his term as first minister and then promptly resigns.
One thing that has really worried me as a Scot is watching the rise of anti english sentiment in my place of work as the campaign has drawn to its close. I really hope with this issue done and dusted for the next 20 years or so, people can get back to the relationships they had before the referendum.
Sorry to have a pop Schiz but i couldnt let it lie.

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 10:03 am

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:Sorry for the rant Mods but its my last post on 606v2 you will be glad to know Been a blast over the last 4 years and I have made some good friends (one was even a no voter ffs) who I will keep in touch with.

The Dream Will Never Die

Adios amigos

No need to apologise Schiz. And I'm not glad to hear you say it. Sorry to see you go, always going to welcome you back.

Love ya Hug

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 10:20 am

What this has made me realise is how much I bloody love Scotland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1CB-D1TtXc

Like I love Scotland so much. It's the beating heart of these islands. Things needed shaking up. And by god, they have shaken things up. The conversation has changed. People are engaged. When all the dust settles things will look different.

by Cyril Sat 20 Sep 2014, 10:52 am

Branding Scots who voted No as 'cowards' is pretty low. Many are proud to be British as well as Scottish.

Both campaigns haven't covered themselves in glory on occasions, but alienating your own populace isn't a smart move.

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 10:53 am

Cyril wrote:Branding Scots who voted No as 'cowards' is pretty low. Many are proud to be British as well as Scottish.

Both campaigns haven't covered themselves in glory on occasions, but alienating your own populace isn't a smart move.

Thats going both ways mind you. We all must be mindful of falling into the narcissism of petty differences.

by Cyril Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:10 am

Notch wrote:
Cyril wrote:Branding Scots who voted No as 'cowards' is pretty low. Many are proud to be British as well as Scottish.

Both campaigns haven't covered themselves in glory on occasions, but alienating your own populace isn't a smart move.

Thats going both ways mind you. We all must be mindful of falling into the narcissism of petty differences.

Agreed. It does seem that it's always easier to just point out the negatives of the opposition's argument than the positives of your own. Just picking up on 21st's post which just seemed nasty and spiteful. I can understand he's disappointed with the result but perhaps attitudes like his are a good reason why I'm glad the decision went the way it did. In my mind, the way he considers opinions different to his own is no way to start independence.

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:17 am

Fair enough. I just think we'd be seeing the exact opposite reactions had the vote gone the other way. There's a hell of a lot of negative reactions from the NOs too. Things will calm down again. We need these moments to change the conversation and refocus minds.

I've seen scores of personal attacks from both sides, so there really is no moral high ground to be had. But this process has been peaceful. Some people have tried to steer it to violence, and anything this big will teeter on the edge of that, but they have been unsuccessful and will continue to be as long as people want them to.

The country that existed before this referendum is gone, the one that is coming will be different. And that excites people. And it disturbs people. And it's necessary and inevitable that it will happen every now and again and things will change.

by Sin é Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:39 am

Cyril wrote:Branding Scots who voted No as 'cowards' is pretty low. Many are proud to be British as well as Scottish.

Both campaigns haven't covered themselves in glory on occasions, but alienating your own populace isn't a smart move.

I wouldn't say they (55% who voted no) are cowards, I'd say they are the opposite of 'brave' - happy and content to be minded by England. Being Scottish & British are not mutually exclusive so there is no problem being proud to be both.

National anthem is very appropriate now:

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
O flower of Scotland
When will we see
Your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

by Cyril Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:46 am

Sin é wrote:
Cyril wrote:Branding Scots who voted No as 'cowards' is pretty low. Many are proud to be British as well as Scottish.

Both campaigns haven't covered themselves in glory on occasions, but alienating your own populace isn't a smart move.

I wouldn't say they (55% who voted no) are cowards, I'd say they are the opposite of 'brave' - happy and content to be minded by England. Being Scottish & British are not mutually exclusive so there is no problem being proud to be both.

That's an insulting generalisation. I wouldn't say that many are 'happy and content'. I would imagine most thought very hard about the decision and decided that (currently) the pro's outweighed the cons. Of course, it's not an ideal situation. Deciding not to vote for massive change (but still wanting change) does not make you 'the opposite of brave'.

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:48 am

The two sides have much in common. And thats made change inevitable.

by Sin é Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:51 am

All the debating has been about the economics of going it alone and being separated from England's much larger economy.

The reason Scotland has stayed in the Union is for economic reasons.

by SecretFly Sat 20 Sep 2014, 11:54 am

We are all different. We ARE different.

The idea of Difference being bad or 'divisive' or 'corrupting' needs challenging - needs serious challenging.

We are different. The propaganda of Governance, the world over, states the similarities rather than the differences; but that propaganda is dragging this world step by step back towards the brink of a very big combined World War.
There is a dangerous return of this idea that Empire is okay. The idea that we should all be the same - the same culture, the same languages, the same religions, the same laws, the same currencies - the same rulers. And the presumption that when we're all in a big Universal country under the same flag, eating the same chips and drinking the same tea, and all either speaking English or all speaking Mandarin, that somehow we'll have achieved perfection.

Perfection is impossible in the human condition and certainly the imposition of 'sameness' causes the kinds of friction that has lit up this world in the first decade of this century.
We all rubber stamp the 'sameness' of China, we do business with it, we buy its products, we forget that its people are stamped down on and coralled into a very sinister 'sameness' cult that in reality doesn't exist if those people all had a true voice in so big a Nation. But nope, Communism - once a bad word all over the world, is now a perfectly nice word to do a lot of business with. And of course the Chinese demand for that business is never to question them on the word Freedom in public. So the others don't. They stay quiet - business is business.
And of course the world is more 'peaceful' too, not having so many distinct people's within China looking for 'divisive' self governance or......Indpendence. So again, the 'Free' nations of the world have more personal reasons for turning a blind eye to the Sameness cult in China. A good Empire - whilst North Korea is a bad one simply because it has nothing to offer the Free nations.

You could go on. Russia - trying to force the idea of sameness on 'Russian speaking peoples' wherever they live. But Europe and the rest of the Free world is guilty of not calling a spade a spade sooner - as in calling Putin a dictator in all but name. But before the Ukrainian thing, Europe and the world were happy to pretend he was an okay leader they could do business with - to hell with the suppression/manipulation of his media. 'We don't mind him imposed Sameness agenda there - it don't affect us none. We want his Natural gas.'

The beauty of the world though is that we're all different - and our natural condition is to enjoy that diversity. Humanbeings in their natural state are inquisitive about difference, their minds grow with it. The dangerous thing is when that diversity is stamped down on in the name of this religion called Sameness and virtual Empire.

A sizeable section of Scotland simply wanted to celebrate the idea that they were unique, and that they didn't need to be defined by double political identities (they'd stay geographically 'British' BTW). That desire though wasn't anti-anything - but it was coloured so to make the Sameness people feel they had the moral highground. The people who wanted to stay in the Union are entitled to feel the Sameness but the Independence seekers are entitled to feel Different - and not to be charged with ideas of subversion, sedition, divisiveness or 'racism'.

This world could do with a lot more expression of difference - tolerated difference - accepted difference - peaceful difference - friendly difference - mutual genuine appreciation of difference. But no, it's on a charge to force sameness on all of us - and reap the raw resouces of such policies. Brand us and be done with it then. We're in the prison camps already waiting for the shout of Next!

by **Notch** Sat 20 Sep 2014, 12:15 pm

SecretFly

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