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Comparing size,power,weight and height of teams - AP,Top 14 and PRO12

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Biltong
whocares
doctor_grey
yappysnap
Bathman_in_London
Notch
Geordie
LondonTiger
Bathite
VinceWLB
propdavid_london
beshocked
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Comparing size,power,weight and height of teams - AP,Top 14 and PRO12 Empty Comparing size,power,weight and height of teams - AP,Top 14 and PRO12

Post by beshocked Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:42 pm

Obviously in rugby there is a thought process that bigger is better and that certain sides are simply bigger and stronger.

I am going to break down some of that in the AP. You're welcome to add your thoughts from other leagues like the Pro12 and Top 14.


We would probably think that the biggest (in terms of size) teams in the AP are Leicester,Saracens,Saints and Bath.

Going with first choice teams (though of course some options can make teams heavier).

Let's see.

1.Ayerza 17 1/2 st - 6,1
2.Youngs - 16st 1, 5,9
3.Cole - 18st 8 , 6,2
4.Parling - 17 st 13, 6,6
5.Slater - 18st 4, 6,6
6.Croft 16st 7 - 6,5
7.Salvi - 15st 10 - 6,1
8.Crane -17st 2, 6,3

138.7 - 17.3 average pack weight




9.Youngs
10.Burns
11.Goneva
12.Allen
13.Tuilagi
14.Benjamin
15.Tait


1.Corbsiero
2.Hartley
3.Ma afu
4.Lawes
5.Day
6.Clark
7.Wood
8.Dickinson

9.Dickson
10.Myler
11.North
12.Burrell
13.Pisi
14.Elliott
15.Foden


1.Mako
2.Brits
3.Johnston
4.Hargreaves
5.Kruis
6.Brown
7.Burger
8.Billy

9.Wigglesworth
10.Farrell
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Bosch
14.Ashton
15.Goode

1.James
2.Webber
3.Wilson
4.Attwood
5.Hooper
6.Garvey
7.Louw
8.Houston

9.Stringer
10.Ford
11.Rokodiguini
12.Eastmond
13.Joseph
14.Banahan
15.Watson


These are the current top 4 contenders in the AP - are they really that much bigger and stronger than the other sides?

I would say No. Sure there are some big men in all those teams but none have monsters throughout. These are supposedly the biggest sides in the AP yet they pale in comparison to the Top 14. Do you think there should be more emphasis on size and power or is the balance these teams have about right?


Last edited by beshocked on Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:29 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by propdavid_london Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:03 pm

Look at a tight 5 that Toulon could put together from the last 2 seasons -

Sheridan
Smit
Hayman
Shaw
Botha

Big chaps

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Post by VinceWLB Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:08 pm

Yeah but Shaw isn't the most powerful imagine now they have Gorgodze which is a scary prospect, admittedly they are now weaker at loosehead but it's only a matter of time before they sign someone like Mtawarira.

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Post by Bathite Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:13 pm

Be good to get the facts behind these beshocked

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Post by beshocked Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:19 pm

propdavid london interesting-

Looking at the current Toulon hookers I am surprised that they are not that big.


VinceWLB

- I never knew that Gorgodze was as big as 6,5 and almost 19st.


The French really do like that massive size and power.

Strange to look at the size stats and see that Juan Smith is much bigger and heavier than Steffon Armitage.

Bathite I might do that at some time - see who of the 4 has the biggest backs and forwards.

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Post by VinceWLB Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:22 pm

beshocked wrote:propdavid london interesting-

- I never knew that Gorgodze was as big as 6,5 and almost 19st.


There is a lot of power behind these stats, Gorgodze is one of those players who pushes well above his weight.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:27 pm

Croft would be in for Gibson.

Front row weight 327kg (14kg could be gained by picking Logo at LH)
Second row - Weight 231kg, avg height 6ft6
Back Row - weight 316kg avg height 6ft3

Half backs - weight 175kg
Centres - 201kg
Back 3 - 291kg

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Post by beshocked Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:31 pm

Yup Londontiger just realised I forgot Croft.

Thanks for your stats.

Vincewlb never realised that. I thought he was like another Steffon Armitage - short and stout with elusive power.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:38 pm

By contrast for Saints:

Front Row: 346kg
Second row - 228kg
Back row (gone with Manoa): 328kg
HBs: 181kg
Centres:203kg
Back 3: 289kg

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Post by beshocked Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:42 pm

So basically if Tigers pick Mulipola there's not much difference bar the backrow - interesting.

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Post by LondonTiger Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:47 pm

But for all Logo's power and size, Ayerza delivers much more. technigue can beat brawn at times.

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Post by Geordie Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:16 am

Well you said the top 4 so i thought i better put our stats in there.  Very Happy
Taken from the Falcons Website...but obviously accuracy is not guarenteed.

We're actually quite lightweight in some areas which has surprised me.

Its curious that many of our academy lads coming through are much bigger than many of the current 1st teamers.

Pack Average - 17st.6
Backs Average - 15st

1 Vickers - (5'10 / 17st)
2 Lawson - (5'8 / 16st) or McGuigan (6' / 16st.5)
3 Brookes - (6'2 / 19st.5)  or S.Wilson - (6'2 / 19st.2)
4 Barrow - (6'7 / 18st.7
5 Green - (6'3 / 18st.2)
6 Furno - (6'6 /17st.7)
7 Welch - (6'3 / 17st)
8 M.Wilson (6'3 / 16st.8) or Aly Hogg (6'3 / 16st.5)

9  Blair (6' / 13st.3)
10 Socino - (5'10 / 15.4)
11 Sinoti - (5'10 / 15st.9)
12 Powell - (5'10 / 15st.2)
13 Tiesi - (6' / 15st.2)
14 Cato - (6' / 15st.4) or Alex Tait (6' / 14st.8)
15 Hammersley (6'2 / 14st.6)

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Post by Notch Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:22 am

If I'm being honest, I just doubt the veracity of all the stats clubs put out there. I know there have been Irish players who have been listed as a certain height and then I've met them in the flesh and been surprised at the fact they seem to be an inch or two smaller than they are listed, maybe more.

I would not be surprised if there is similar massaging of the stats when it comes to weight. After all, weight must go up and down throughout the season. Some players get injured and come back with massive upper bodies because they can't work out their legs. Some props turn up for pre-season in very different shape to when they left and struggle to stay fit when they aren't playing! It's easy to imagine that certain stats in the public domain are not kept up to date and we don't have the same access to the real stats which are kept by S&C staff at the various clubs, unions and provinces.
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Post by Geordie Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:27 am

I agree Notch, but it was just an interesting thing to play along with.

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Post by Notch Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:30 am

Yeah it is, I mean they're not a million miles away. I've met Paul Marshall and Devin Toner and Devin is definitely bigger! Whistle
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Post by Bathman_in_London Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:43 am

I am never convinced by club stats, but for what its worth, here they are for the probable first choice pack for Bath:

James (6'1/18st 2)
Webber (6'/18st 4)
Wilson (6'1/19st 10)
Hooper (6'4/17st 11)
Attwood (6'7/18st 10)
Garvey (6'6/19st 10)
Louw (6'3/17st 2)
Houston (6'2/17st 13) or Carl Fearns (6'3/19st 5)

That is a pretty beefy pack, especially in the back row. But arguably that is balanced out in terms of average across the team by a very small combo of Ford at Eastmond at 10/12.

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Post by yappysnap Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:25 am

Quins:

Marler 6' 17.3
Buchanan 6' 16.0 Ward 5'9 15.7
Collier 6'2 17.6 Synckler 6' 18.9!!

So a fairly small and light front row for Quins, again the biggest lad is also the ropyest at the scrum

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Post by doctor_grey Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:40 am

Notch wrote:If I'm being honest, I just doubt the veracity of all the stats clubs put out there. I know there have been Irish players who have been listed as a certain height and then I've met them in the flesh and been surprised at the fact they seem to be an inch or two smaller than they are listed, maybe more.

I would not be surprised if there is similar massaging of the stats when it comes to weight. After all, weight must go up and down throughout the season. Some players get injured and come back with massive upper bodies because they can't work out their legs. Some props turn up for pre-season in very different shape to when they left and struggle to stay fit when they aren't playing! It's easy to imagine that certain stats in the public domain are not kept up to date and we don't have the same access to the real stats which are kept by S&C staff at the various clubs, unions and provinces.
I agree that some stats are less than accurate. I am not sure if there are any regulations requiring accuracy or if this is self-policing (which means somewhere between accurate and fiction). Certainly seems normal that players are smaller than the numbers would indicate.

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Post by yappysnap Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:06 am

Do that's about 321kg for Quins front row, take off about 15kg if Ward starts though

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Post by whocares Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:13 am

Looks similar to racing and toulon front row then who are are around 330kg each (generally hooker is around 100, LH 110 while TH closer to 120). Big 2nd rows involving saffers tend to be at as much as 230-235kg while most backrowers tend to weight around 110kg for 1.90m. Steffon being the exception here with 90kg at 1.75m... Somehow largely compensated by RCT 9th forward number 1.3. Bastareaud who is his team heaviest player (close call with Hayman bith being above 120 I think).

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Post by Biltong Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:21 am

I think when a pack reaches 930kg they start losing mobility which on dry surfaces is a negative.

So too heavy isn't necessarily the best.
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Post by VinceWLB Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:54 pm

Not to mention being heavy doesn't mean you are an effective scrummager or a powerfull ball carrier.

At the end of the day it's all about strength and stats doesn't tell that, i have seen 125kg 2nd row who are softer than my grandma breasts and 105kg backrower who will never take a backward step.

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Post by fa0019 Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:14 pm

A full strength bok pack will be about 930-940kgs... this is mainly because their backrow first choice weighs in about 115kg a man though... which is rare.

Mobility is an issue but those hits will add up in the end. You can only take so many hits from 115kg chaps... saying that though I used to play with a 130kg chap and boy was he useless, had the tackling strength of an amateur era wing... its all about applied strength.

Vunipola is probably 10-15kgs heavier than Vermeulen but I know who I'd rather have tackling and taking the ball in.

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Post by Geordie Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:03 pm

I still think theres always some space for a some big ol bulk in the pack though.

A lightweight athletic pack is great but sometimes i still think the odd big lumps with dumb strength help in the tight.

Players like Big Norm Hadley the old Canadian lock...not particularly athletic but just a man mountain...huge strength etc.

Thats why i have always been a fan of Matt Garvey potentially for England. He's a monster and just wrestling against these big guys can drain you through a game...not to mention Garveys defence is top class.

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Post by Dubbelyew L Overate Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:09 pm

Chief

Front Row: Moon, Yeandle, Francis - 359kg
Second Row: Mumm, Welch - 229kg
Back Row: Ewers, Waldrom, White - 335kg

Total - 923kg

Some of Exeter's stats are up to a year out of date, but Tomas Francis' is new and contributes 135kg (over 20st) to the front row. He''s only just completed his second professional pre-season though after joining from London Scottish, so I guess his body shape and weight is changing.

Mumm (who isn't playing at the moment) is a pretty lightweight lock at 109kg (17st,1), so brings the average down.

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Post by HammerofThunor Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:41 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Not to mention being heavy doesn't mean you are an effective scrummager or a powerfull ball carrier.

At the end of the day it's all about strength and stats doesn't tell that, i have seen 125kg 2nd row who are softer than my grandma breasts and 105kg backrower who will never take a backward step.

How often do you check that? Shocked

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Post by SecretFly Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:31 pm

It ain't about biggest..............it's about transcription factor HIF-1-alpha, Ar and Xe Wink

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