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Who should play at Centre for the Boks?

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Post by kingraf Sun 19 Oct 2014, 3:51 pm

As many of you would already know, I don't rate Jan Serfontein. At all. In fact I rate him less than I rate Jannie du Pressie, who despite being a surgeon seems to have never met a stupid penalty he wouldn't give away.

In any case, I don't think anyone here can doubt or does doubt that we need a more penetrative 13. This year is the year where the options are at least usable. Personally I'd go with Sbu Sithole, he's been head and shoulders above anyone else locally. Strong, direct, good in the tackle. Like a chocolate Jaque Fourie. Other options include, you know, Serfontein, he of the metre gain a carry. Even Lionel Mapoe had a boss Currie Cup. Didn't watch the WP this Currie Cup, but de Jongh always seems quality when I watch him.

Anyway, just a thought. Do we really want to play Serfontein in a world cup? We even have his friend, that Engelbrecht guy. Secondary question, do you play De Villiers at 12?
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Post by Bullsbok Sun 19 Oct 2014, 6:44 pm

If Fourie Du Preez was playing i'd start Serfotein next to Pollard and Engelbrecht . Big young guys and they've played for years together. However for the EOYT leave the centers as they are , they play to the coaches gameplan and its working
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Post by Biltong Sun 19 Oct 2014, 6:46 pm

Remember John Smit?

PDV kept selecting him in favour of Bismarck du PLessis who was rated the best hooker in world rugby.

You are rating Jan Serfontein on a position he is not specialised in, yet on an AUstralian website he was selected as the 13 of the RC.

Your problem isn't with Jan Serfontein, your problem is with Jean de Villiers, before you get to hard on Jan Serfontein you have to go rewatch the RC matches and realise that often in defence Jean de Villiers would defend on the outside of Jan Serfontein.

The reason being that Jean supposedly organise our defence better, yet he broke the line so many times in defence and were responsible for two tries conceded, one against the Wallabies and one against the All Blacks.

There is plenty of depth at centre in SA, but with Meyer insistent that Jean de Villiers being in the team, he has not given enough players the opportunity to prove themselves.

You just need to look at what happened to Damien de Allende who played at centre partnership with Jean de Villiers at 12 the whole season and then Meyer puts him at 13.

Same issue with Jan who partnered JJ Engelbrcht at 12 and yet is played at 13 by Meyer.

The problem here is simple, Jean de Villiers.

We have plenty of centres, Jan Serfontein, Damien de Allende, Paul Jordaan, Subaru Sithole, Juan du Jongh, JP Pietersen, William Small Smith, ANdre Esterhuize, JJ Engelbrecht.

ANd they are being being dealt with unfairly because of Jean de Villiers. Even Lionel Mapoe who has been having a brilliant Currie Cup is not getting a shot, and he is a 13.
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Post by Biltong Sun 19 Oct 2014, 6:49 pm

Bullsbok wrote:If Fourie Du Preez was playing i'd start Serfotein next to Pollard and Engelbrecht . Big young guys and they've played for years together. However for the EOYT leave the centers as they are , they play to the coaches gameplan and its working

If you want a great exciting backline then this is it. In fact this is what I would like to see in November.

9. Francois Hougaard
10. Handre Pollard.
11. Damien de ALlende
12. Jan Serfontein
13. JJ Engelbrecht
14. Cornal Hendricks
15. Willie le Roux.

Bench
20. Cobus Reinach
21. Patrick Lambie
22. Juan du Jongh/Lionel Mapoe
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Post by kingraf Sun 19 Oct 2014, 7:11 pm

13 of the RC? Can't see it myself. Defensively maybe. But overall impact? In the antipodean tour he made 15m from as many carries. Don't think he was much better in the home leg either. Maybe I am being unfair on him, but I honestly rate we have four or five better 13s.

As for JdV. I'm undecided really. If you asked me in 2011, I'd have laughed and said 2015 isn't just kinda far, it's not even in his range. But to his credit, he's been passable, and I think adds an attacking zeal which we won't have long as Serfontein is our 13. Read in the paper this morning about Lambie playing 10, and Pollard moving to 12. It's not the worst idea for me. I think they're about equal as 10s, and Meyer seems to believe Pollard can play 12.
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Post by Biltong Sun 19 Oct 2014, 7:19 pm

Meyer is going to make a mistake by putting Pollard at 12, I don't know what he is thinking.

We have our two flyhalves now, why play one of them out of position?
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Post by kingraf Sun 19 Oct 2014, 7:24 pm

No clue mate. Think he rates Lambie a better 10 (as do I), but he thinks Pollard has too much X-factor to be left out (as do I ). Lambie is also traditionally the better kicker. Which does take a greater importance in a world cup year.
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Post by Biltong Sun 19 Oct 2014, 7:31 pm

As much as I like Lambie (he is my favourite 10 in SA) Pollard softens the opposition with his physicality more so than Lambie can, Lambie on the bench provides us a back up for 10, 12, and 15, and he is very good as an impact player, much like Barrett is for NZ.
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Post by Bullsbok Sun 19 Oct 2014, 7:35 pm

kingraf wrote:13 of the RC? Can't see it myself. Defensively maybe. But overall impact? In the antipodean tour he made 15m from as many carries. Don't think he was much better in the home leg either. Maybe I am being unfair on him, but I honestly rate we have four or five better 13s.

As for JdV. I'm undecided really. If you asked me in 2011, I'd have laughed and said 2015 isn't just kinda far, it's not even in his range. But to his credit, he's been passable, and I think adds an attacking zeal which we won't have long as Serfontein is our 13. Read in the paper this morning about Lambie playing 10, and Pollard moving to 12. It's not the worst idea for me. I think they're about equal as 10s, and Meyer seems to believe Pollard can play 12.

If you watched the JWC you'd know Serfontein is more than a bashbot. But just like JDV and Morne Steyn under Meyer , he's being coached to take route 1 at first phase with Willie spreading it wide to JDV and Hendricks when they have quick ball. JDV now is the real problem like Biltong said . He flies out of the line too much causing those gaps
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Post by Bullsbok Sun 19 Oct 2014, 7:36 pm

Biltong wrote:As much as I like Lambie (he is my favourite 10 in SA) Pollard softens the opposition with his physicality more so than Lambie can, Lambie on the bench provides us a back up for 10, 12, and 15, and he is very good as an impact player, much like Barrett is for NZ.

I heavily dislike Bad News Barrett. He;s  just the worst person you want to see on the field in the last 20 . Devastating player running at tired defenders mad
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Post by Biltong Sun 19 Oct 2014, 7:41 pm

Bullsbok wrote:
Biltong wrote:As much as I like Lambie (he is my favourite 10 in SA) Pollard softens the opposition with his physicality more so than Lambie can, Lambie on the bench provides us a back up for 10, 12, and 15, and he is very good as an impact player, much like Barrett is for NZ.

I heavily dislike Bad News Barrett. He;s  just the worst person you want to see on the field in the last 20 . Devastating player running at tired defenders mad

Yeah, he is devastating in the last quarter, and I believe Lambie can fulfil the same role for us. Especially with Reinach who is just a nightmare when he is on song.

It will change the way we finish games from now on.
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Post by Taylorman Sun 19 Oct 2014, 9:01 pm

Biltong wrote:
Bullsbok wrote:
Biltong wrote:As much as I like Lambie (he is my favourite 10 in SA) Pollard softens the opposition with his physicality more so than Lambie can, Lambie on the bench provides us a back up for 10, 12, and 15, and he is very good as an impact player, much like Barrett is for NZ.

I heavily dislike Bad News Barrett. He;s  just the worst person you want to see on the field in the last 20 . Devastating player running at tired defenders mad

Yeah, he is devastating in the last quarter, and I believe Lambie can fulfil the same role for us. Especially with Reinach who is just a nightmare when he is on song.

It will change the way we finish games from now on.

yes that's a good point. The last twenty is going to be more critical in the NH WCup, and why Barrett must be that sub. He's average at 10 and with 3 other specialist 10's I think the experiment is over. I actually think Slade is going to be very prominent next year.

Lambie does look similar in that respect and with Pollard able to fire when the heats on at the beginning, the two complement each other.

I don't think its so much who plays at 13 for the Boks as much as how they get to play.

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Post by Biltong Sun 19 Oct 2014, 9:49 pm

Taylorman wrote:
Biltong wrote:
Bullsbok wrote:
Biltong wrote:As much as I like Lambie (he is my favourite 10 in SA) Pollard softens the opposition with his physicality more so than Lambie can, Lambie on the bench provides us a back up for 10, 12, and 15, and he is very good as an impact player, much like Barrett is for NZ.

I heavily dislike Bad News Barrett. He;s  just the worst person you want to see on the field in the last 20 . Devastating player running at tired defenders mad

Yeah, he is devastating in the last quarter, and I believe Lambie can fulfil the same role for us. Especially with Reinach who is just a nightmare when he is on song.

It will change the way we finish games from now on.

yes that's a good point. The last twenty is going to be more critical in the NH WCup, and why Barrett must be that sub. He's average at 10 and with 3 other specialist 10's I think the experiment is over. I actually think Slade is going to be very prominent next year.

Lambie does look similar in that respect and with Pollard able to fire when the heats on at the beginning, the two complement each other.

I don't think its so much who plays at 13 for the Boks as much as how they get to play.

Tman, it is the defensive organisation that is mostly the issue here.
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Post by fa0019 Tue 21 Oct 2014, 10:27 am

Serfontein is the new brad barritt in my opinion.

He can defend and defend well. But 13s need gas. and that is something you can't train for... either you have it, or you don't.

I'd rather have Engelbrecht or De Jongh. At least if someone has broken play I'd rather we have a smaller chance of tackling the player rather than zero chance.

You only have a chance of tackling a player if you can reach them... if you can't reach them your tackle success rate is meaningless. Say you have 1 guy with a 90% tackle rate who is slow or an another guy with a 60% tackle rate who is fast. Who do you choose for 13?

Well the first guy will always be beaten due to pace but the second guy will only tackle 6/10. 6/10 is better than 0/10.

He can play 12 and will be JDV successor but at 13 he leaves a door wide wide open.

For me I reckon he should pile on the weight and become a Jamie Roberts/Frans Steyn type. At the moment he's in the middle like JDV himself... yet JDV had pace in his youth, wingers pace. If he gets a lot stronger he can be a decent option in the tight, has the tackling skill but will hardly have to chase down a sprinter.... he's not right for 13 mind.

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Post by westisbest Tue 21 Oct 2014, 11:48 am

Bilt.

Does Paul Jordaan get much of a look in with the Boks squad?
Didn't see any of the RC.

Remember seeing him some time ago playing for the Sharks and thinking, this guy looks sh1t hot.

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Post by Biltong Tue 21 Oct 2014, 1:06 pm

West, he has been very unlucky with injuries, he was out for most of the season last year, and again he has been injured.

Meyer will only look at him if he can complete a season without injury.

FA, Jan is not a 13, he must play 12 alongside JJ.
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Post by fa0019 Tue 21 Oct 2014, 1:13 pm

Biltong wrote:West, he has been very unlucky with injuries, he was out for most of the season last year, and again he has been injured.

Meyer will only look at him if he can complete a season without injury.

FA, Jan is not a 13, he must play 12 alongside JJ.

I agree.

But whilst Fourie is unproven at this level anymore who should we see in the 13 jersey come the RWC?

Candidates are

Serfontein. 12 pure and simple
Engelbrecht. Revolving door wasn't even considered at WP as a centre. Lots of Pace
De Jongh. A little small, sometimes a revolving door but bags of pace and for me the most natural 13 after Fourie.
De Allende. A bit predictable.
Jordaan... always seen him more of a 12 to be honest.

Always liked De Jongh. I think he's underrated and should be given another chance myself but Meyer will go Serfontein, Engelbrecht, De Allende, De Jongh, Jordaan.

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Post by Biltong Tue 21 Oct 2014, 1:25 pm

Our challenge lies at 13.

Like you say each of the known 13's have an inadequacy

But JJ did improve his defence, it was really just against NZ at Ellispark that he eally showed up badly in defence.

If you consider our defence last year conceded only a try per match, then JJ isn't that bad.

I like the pure pace he brings at 13, Juan du Jongh is like Lambie, not entirely physical enough, but can be a great impact player.

I also wonder why Meyer has not considered Mapoe, he has been really good at 13 the whole year.

Sithole and Jordaan is just to small to be midfielders, Sithole has oodles of pace and should play wing, I think Jordaan is a wing all day long, in 2012 before his injury crisis he was brilliant for the SHarks, he ran the Reds ragged in the semi final in Queensland.
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Post by fa0019 Tue 21 Oct 2014, 1:47 pm

Biltong wrote:Our challenge lies at 13.

Like you say each of the known 13's have an inadequacy

But JJ did improve his defence, it was really just against NZ at Ellispark that he eally showed up badly in defence.

If you consider our defence last year conceded only a try per match, then JJ isn't that bad.

I like the pure pace he brings at 13, Juan du Jongh is like Lambie, not entirely physical enough, but can be a great impact player.

I also wonder why Meyer has not considered Mapoe, he has been really good at 13 the whole year.

Sithole and Jordaan is just to small to be midfielders, Sithole has oodles of pace and should play wing, I think Jordaan is a wing all day long, in 2012 before his injury crisis he was brilliant for the SHarks, he ran the Reds ragged in the semi final in Queensland.

I agree, Sithole would be more suited to the wing. Mapoe.... always thought there are better players out there. De Jongh... a little lightweight but I still don't think its an issue.... he is a great player to have on the bench... can cover 11,12,13 & 14 very well.

JJ for me is > Serfontein and a better bet come 12 months if Fourie cannot hack it at test level anymore.

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Post by westisbest Tue 21 Oct 2014, 2:00 pm

Cheers Bilt.

Hope he gets back to full fitness soon.

An exciting prospect.

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