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The Best Current All-rounder?

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Post by msp83 Wed 05 Nov 2014, 3:30 am

First topic message reminder :

Shakib Al Hasan, returning from a disciplinary ban, took a 6for in the first test against Zimbabwe, and followed it up with a stroke-filled hundred in the 2nd game that is ongoing. He has a fine record in all formats of the game as an all-rounder. Is Shakib the best all-rounder currently playing the game? Who else could be the contenders?
Shane Watson? Is Watson as good a bowler as Shakib is? Is he clearly better with the bat?
Ravichandran Ashwin is a bowling all-rounder who doesn't have the control with the ball that Shakib has in overseas conditions. Ravindra Jadeja is not as good as Shakib with bat or ball. Vernon Philander is a bowler who can bat, Angelo Mathews is a batsman who can bowl. Dwayne Bravo who hasn't been picked for test cricket for almost 4 years, isn't a bowler of Shakib's class, and even with the bat, I think Shakib is better as indicated by their figures as well.
Moeen Ali in his young test career, is the only other player along with Shakib who bats in the top 6 and is the lead spinner as well. But Ali's bowling needs to go a long long way to get close to Shakib's, and Moeen hasn't been much better with the bat either.
So lets debate.......

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Post by KO-KING Sun 16 Nov 2014, 12:37 am

KP_fan wrote:I was reading Imran's bio on CI...and it said in his last 10 years Imran averaged 51 with the bat and 19 with the ball...... Whistle
Imagine that
and he captained his side....a mediocre  side , full of personalities, factionalism and turned them into world beaters.....
and in an era when WI was super strong and Aus quite strong....
Imran was phenomenal

was it really a mediocre side...

Imran Khan belongs in the top 3 with Sobers and Kallis and that wont change - those guys are on a different level.

Then you got the bothams, flintoffs, devs, Shakibs of the world

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Post by guildfordbat Mon 17 Nov 2014, 3:44 am

Ko-King, I agree with you about Imran belonging in the top tier of all-rounders.

Although Miller was effectively before my time, from my readings and listening to others who did see him play, I would also place him there.

The one I actually have doubts about being at the top table is Kallis. I know I shouldn't and it says more about me than anything ... but ... well, yes, Kallis was hugely talented and reliable ... but ... for me, he just didn't have the flamboyance of the other three (Sobers, Imran Khan and Miller) to prompt a lifelong love of the game.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 19 Nov 2014, 12:02 am

KO-KING wrote:
KP_fan wrote:I was reading Imran's bio on CI...and it said in his last 10 years Imran averaged 51 with the bat and 19 with the ball...... Whistle
Imagine that
and he captained his side....a mediocre  side , full of personalities, factionalism and turned them into world beaters.....
and in an era when WI was super strong and Aus quite strong....
Imran was phenomenal

was it really a mediocre side...

Imran Khan belongs in the top 3 with Sobers and Kallis and that wont change - those guys are on a different level.

Then you got the bothams, flintoffs, devs, Shakibs of the world

Imran took over in mid-80s....and he had tahir nakkash, azeem hafeez, naveed anjum for his pace bowlers.........no one genuine fast bowler...until he found akram in 1988 who blossomed to full potential in early 190s and then he had waqar also.

there were two phases to Imran's captaincy....the team he took over in mid 80s was mediocre barring himself and Javed Miandad.
the side he had built up by early 90s was not a mediocre one anymore....
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Post by Stella Wed 19 Nov 2014, 3:44 am

KP_fan wrote:
KO-KING wrote:
KP_fan wrote:I was reading Imran's bio on CI...and it said in his last 10 years Imran averaged 51 with the bat and 19 with the ball...... Whistle
Imagine that
and he captained his side....a mediocre  side , full of personalities, factionalism and turned them into world beaters.....
and in an era when WI was super strong and Aus quite strong....
Imran was phenomenal

was it really a mediocre side...

Imran Khan belongs in the top 3 with Sobers and Kallis and that wont change - those guys are on a different level.

Then you got the bothams, flintoffs, devs, Shakibs of the world

Imran took over in mid-80s....and he had tahir nakkash, azeem hafeez, naveed anjum for his pace bowlers.........no one genuine fast bowler...until he found akram in 1988 who blossomed to full potential in early 190s and then he had waqar also.

there were two phases to Imran's captaincy....the team he took over in mid 80s was mediocre barring himself and Javed Miandad.
the side he had built up by early 90s was not a mediocre one anymore....

He did have the world's best spinner in his side during the mid eighties, plus a good batting line up.
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Post by KP_fan Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:28 pm

Qadir if you are alluding to as the best spinner.....was actually far from it.
his strike rate of 73 balls per wicket, and an average of 33 for a sub-continent spinner is not exceptional.

Having seen Qadir.....his problem was lack of consistency....a profligate leggie....who did not make much impression on the good spin players in India and Lanka...he averages 45ish against them.

Good Batting......otehr than Miandad...the batting was just average...Mohsin, Mudassar, Malik, Ramiz were all high 30s low 40s averaging average batsmen.

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Post by Stella Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:34 pm

KP_fan wrote:Qadir if you are alluding to as the best spinner.....was actually far from it.
his strike rate of 73 balls per wicket, and an average of 33 for a sub-continent spinner is not exceptional.

Having seen Qadir.....his problem was lack of consistency....a profligate leggie....who did not make much impression on the good spin players in India and Lanka...he averages 45ish against them.

Good Batting......otehr than Miandad...the batting was just average...Mohsin, Mudassar, Malik, Ramiz were all high 30s low 40s averaging average batsmen.


Who was better than Qadir, during the mid 80's?

Mailk was a very good player. and Mudassar and Moshin were a decent partnership. Plus Imran at six.
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Post by KP_fan Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:48 pm

Stella wrote:
KP_fan wrote:Qadir if you are alluding to as the best spinner.....was actually far from it.
his strike rate of 73 balls per wicket, and an average of 33 for a sub-continent spinner is not exceptional.

Having seen Qadir.....his problem was lack of consistency....a profligate leggie....who did not make much impression on the good spin players in India and Lanka...he averages 45ish against them.

Good Batting......otehr than Miandad...the batting was just average...Mohsin, Mudassar, Malik, Ramiz were all high 30s low 40s averaging average batsmen.


Who was better than Qadir, during the mid 80's?

Mailk was a very good player. and Mudassar and Moshin were a decent partnership. Plus Imran at six.

Muddasar , Mohsin averaging 37 and Malik 42 and Ramiz 31...batting half their lives on the relatively flat pak pitches were just average test batsmen.

regarding who was the best spinner in mid-80s.....I think you've got a point.....there wasn't anyone better than Qadir inspite of his figures not looking great by all time standards.

India's spin quartet and Derek Underwood had retired.....Ind in mid 80s had mediocre Doshi, maninder, siva, shastri and Shivlal yadav...... and Eng had Emburey and Edmonds ......and Aus had Ray Bright, Matthews and some other hard to remember names..... Windies didn't need anyone beyond occasional spin of Richards and Larry Gomes......NZ had Bracewell, Lanka had Asoka D'Silva.....

So really Qadir was the best spinner in that patch of time.

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Post by KP_fan Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:55 pm

actually from 1983 onwards an until the arrival of Warne, Kumble, Murali and Saqlain in earl 1990s..the art of spin bowling was in it's lowest phase for nearly a decade
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Post by Stella Wed 19 Nov 2014, 10:59 pm

An average of 42 (Malik) was very good back then. He impressed me when he toured here. 37 wasn't too bad for an opener either. Damn, you scored 700 against us, at the Oval.

Yes, good spinners were at a low in the 80's. The Windies had Harper, who was ok.
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Post by KO-KING Sun 23 Nov 2014, 8:55 am

KP_fan wrote:actually from 1983 onwards an until the arrival of Warne, Kumble, Murali and Saqlain in earl 1990s..the art of spin bowling was in it's lowest phase for nearly a decade

Talking about spinners, whos left now as Ajmal is out with his action, Narine seems to be a short format specialist and also suspect action...


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Post by kingraf Sun 23 Nov 2014, 8:56 am

Herath has been nothing short of remarkable for the last 2-3 years. Zulfiqar seems the real deal as well.
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Post by KO-KING Sun 23 Nov 2014, 9:03 am

guildfordbat wrote:Ko-King, I agree with you about Imran belonging in the top tier of all-rounders.

Although Miller was effectively before my time, from my readings and listening to others who did see him play, I would also place him there.

The one I actually have doubts about being at the top table is Kallis. I know I shouldn't and it says more about me than anything ... but ...  well, yes, Kallis was hugely talented and reliable ... but ... for me, he just didn't have the flamboyance of the other three (Sobers, Imran Khan and Miller) to prompt a lifelong love of the game.

I forgot about Miller, I'll have him in the top tier also. Am pretty sure it was him, who someone talked about being very popular, putting into some words along the line of 'botham was like a TV star, Miller was a movie star'

But i'll also have kallis up there, although I didn't have him down as a All rounder for the past few years.

Shakib scored 100 and 4 wickets recently also, for me quite clearly has been the best All Rounder for the past few years

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Post by KO-KING Sun 23 Nov 2014, 9:03 am

kingraf wrote:Herath has been nothing short of remarkable for the last 2-3 years. Zulfiqar seems the real deal as well.

Forgot about him, but he's getting up there in age also now

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Post by KP_fan Sun 23 Nov 2014, 9:33 am

kingraf wrote:Herath has been nothing short of remarkable for the last 2-3 years. Zulfiqar seems the real deal as well.


Since all these mystery spinners have been ruled illegal....
Herath has been good....he did well in Eng also.....and stands out as the best for now.

Babaar and Shah can be judged only when they have played outside their home conditions. If home conditions were an indicator....Ashwin would be the king.


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