The worst team in Scotland V the worst team in England

by GLove39 Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:08 pm

Edinburgh Rugby v London Welsh
Sunday 7 December 2014, KO 14:00
BT Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Referee: Cedric Marchat

*****
As we enter the festive season it seems rather fitting that these 2 teams should play one another.

Since both really emphasise the true spirit of Christmas, a time of giving & being generous to your fellow man...

Edinburgh for instance are obsessed with giving.
Whether it's handing only the 2nd win of the season to a depleted Zebre side, or possession away by the bucket load thanks to the instructions of head elf Alan Solomons, or making the opposition team look like the All Blacks with their unique brand of tackling as often demonstrated by Tim 'tinsel is tougher than me' Visser.

Continuing the theme of giving, our opponents on Sunday, London Welsh are a side clearly struck by the nativity story, in particular the part about 3 wise men bearing gifts & have decided to multiply that by a factor of 5.
Whichever team takes to the field they simply love to give, and currently after 9 straight losses in the Aviva, plus 2, in Europe have a points difference of -372!

So what can we expect on Sunday, well given both sides kind hearted nature it's has the makings of a try fest!

Since a top 6 finish for Edinburgh now seems out of reach like an awkwardly placed bauble, one hopes they'll revert back to their 2012 mindset & really make a crack of things. And show their weary supporters that it is indeed the season to be jolly.

Now much like the wine they should sell on match days I'll leave this here for you to mull over.

Teams:

Exfoliators:
Nick McLennan, Dougie Fife, Matt Scott, Andries Strauss, Tim Visser, Tom Heathcote, Grayson Hart, Rory Sutherland, James Hiltebrand, Willem Nel, Ollie Atkins, Ben Toolis, Tomas Leonardi, Roddy Grant, Mike Coman (C).

Replacements: Neil Cochrane, Grant Shiells, John Andress, Anton Bresler, Stuart McInally, Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Greig Tonks, Sam Beard.

Sweaties:
Elliot Kear, Rhys Crane, Nic Reynolds, Alan Awcock, Chris Elder, Gordon Ross (C), Paul Rowley, Eddie Aholelei, Nathan Vella, Ben Cooper, Josh McNally, Matt Corker, Ben West, Carl Kirwan, Ben Pienaar.

Replacements: Nathan Morris, Shane Cahill, Jack Gilding, Daniel Browne, Lachlan McCaffrey, Rob Lewis, Nick Scott, Tom May.

by **RDW** Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:15 pm

Although to be fair to them both, 'worst rugby team' is probably a bit more accurate as, although Edinburgh are frustratingly inconsistent, they certainly aren't the worst sports team in Scotland just now!

Despite Edinburgh's lame loss to Zebre we really should be giving LW a complete horsing here. They have no chance progressing from the group so should care sweet FA about the game, and although we have been inconsistent we at least have shown that we can get some decent wins (two decent French teams in the competition so far).

If we don't get a 30 point + win here there really is something wrong.

Would be our first try BP of the season too...

by GLove39 Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:29 pm

Very true, but then I like to spend my time pretending that rugby is the only sport in the land!

Fingers crossed on that front. Might end up going to this game, and as we know that's a guaranteed win!

Also wow, I'd totally forgotten about the lack of TBP, that's grim.

by yappysnap Wed 03 Dec 2014, 12:59 pm

If you somehow lose to Welsh then that would be woeful.

by SecretFly Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:24 pm

Christmas would be come Easter!

Torture. Each side trying to give each other scoring chances and nobody taking them.... stalemate.

by EWT Spoons Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:42 pm

This has the making to be either one of the highest scoring game’s in history, or the worst game of rugby…..ever!

Nothing like a bit of exaggeration for a Wednesday lunchtime.

I fear this is going to be a turgid affair, with both teams doing their very best to lose… I might go.

by **RDW** Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:49 pm

I keep swaying between thinking these comments are harsh on Edinburgh then fully deserved. As has been pointed out elsewhere, this Edinburgh team has beaten Munster (A), Bordeaux-Begles (A), Lyon (H), Blues (H), Dragons (H) - so they are capable and I certainly wouldn't say we are anywhere near London Welsh's level just now, who are struggling to justify their status as a pro team never mind an AP team!

So although we are frustratingly inconsistent, this game should still be a good win for us.

by funnyExiledScot Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:52 pm

We're in the wrong business if we lose this game. I may go along as well, if only to see the great Nick McLennan in action.....

by lostinwales Wed 03 Dec 2014, 1:59 pm

London Welsh do seem to score a few tries though. Maybe only because the opposition have tired themselves out walking through threadbare defense for an hour but still.

by highland_scot Wed 03 Dec 2014, 4:15 pm

Maybe in this game we will finally see the razzle-dazzle that the likes of Mike "leadership" Coman, Andries "experience" Strauss and Nick "the anonymous" McLennan were signed for. Notable in their absences are Wicus Blauuw and Simon Berghan in the front row.

Might go along just for the spectacle of rugby greatness!

by tigertattie Wed 03 Dec 2014, 4:58 pm

Predictions for the game

Coman shows his leadership skills and rallies the troops
Strauss Scores a brace of tries in a game where his handling becomes the stuff of rugby lore
Tim visser is recored on the ESPN stats as "tackles made 2 - tackles missed 0"

I've seen on william hill that the odds of the above are 23,987,321 to 1

worth 10p I say!

by EWT Spoons Thu 04 Dec 2014, 9:01 am

Don’t know about anyone else, but I’m finding it really hard to get excited about this game. We’re going to play badly, I think that’s a given, but so are LW, so there is probably little prospect of either team putting on a show that’s going to keep the fans engrossed in what’s happening on the field. We’ll play a number of players who, so far, have shown nothing to justify them getting any game time, let alone starting, who in the main are NSQ.

It’s a disappointing situation to be in all told.

Sorry I’m being a miserable git this morning, but if you glance down the M8, our great unwashed countrymen have a winning team, full of Scots and play fast exciting rugby, with a good team ethos and have a coach who seems to know what he (the mystery tombola) are doing.

Then you look at Edinburgh, we play turgid ineffective rugby (if it was effective then that would be fine), with a few NSQ players who add nothing to the team, with quite a few more on the books (is Atiga still in the squad?), we don’t seem to have much of a team ethos, despite having god’s gift to leadership playing for us and a coach who seems to be baffled by things like weather.

Again sorry, but it just annoys me.

by **RDW** Thu 04 Dec 2014, 9:09 am

I'm with you on this Spoons. Glasgow fans don't know how good they've got it - imagine supporting Scotland, with all the dross we've had over the years, and not having the pick-me-up of knowing you're going to get some exciting, winning rugby when you go back to following your club? We're left with having to hang on to the coattails of Glasgow's success.

As for this game, the only thing that will get me excited is a positive team selection - i.e. Drop Strauss and McLennan. Maybe even Tonks at 10 (well that has become an overwhelming failure after so much anticipation - he's barely been selected there) to add a bit of variety to the game.

But we know that's not happening any time soon.

I'm still sure we're going to get a decent win here - scoring a few tries - but I've got to agree, I'm not overly enthused by the prospect of the game.

by **George Carlin** Thu 04 Dec 2014, 9:35 am

I agree - Strauss and MacLennan need to be left in the car park selling programmes for me to even be remotely interested in this game. I don't think that I've given Gilchrist enough credit in the past as the Edinburgh tight five seems to have turned to damp tissue paper without him there.

by funnyExiledScot Thu 04 Dec 2014, 9:48 am

George Carlin wrote:I agree - Strauss and MacLennan need to be left in the car park selling programmes for me to even be remotely interested in this game. I don't think that I've given Gilchrist enough credit in the past as the Edinburgh tight five seems to have turned to damp tissue paper without him there.

Bresler as well, just when we seemed to be getting somewhere with him. Hopefully Dickinson can come back into the fold and along with Ford replicate his Scotland form. That should give us something.

Overall I agree though with Spoons. I live 25 minutes from the ground on foot, have a ticket and I'm still wondering whether I'll go or not.

by **RDW** Thu 04 Dec 2014, 11:18 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:
George Carlin wrote:I agree - Strauss and MacLennan need to be left in the car park selling programmes for me to even be remotely interested in this game. I don't think that I've given Gilchrist enough credit in the past as the Edinburgh tight five seems to have turned to damp tissue paper without him there.

Bresler as well, just when we seemed to be getting somewhere with him. Hopefully Dickinson can come back into the fold and along with Ford replicate his Scotland form. That should give us something.

Overall I agree though with Spoons. I live 25 minutes from the ground on foot, have a ticket and I'm still wondering whether I'll go or not.

Ford is likely to be rested.

If baby FES doesn't give you an excuse to miss the game it probably would be a good game to go to - you'll at least see Edinburgh win surely! Given that's not going to happen much this season you need to get them while you can.

by RuggerRadge2611 Thu 04 Dec 2014, 12:03 pm

Edinburgh have fully turned me into an indifferent fan. I'm happier supporting Kirkcaldy Rugby Club to be honest. They provide a heck of a lot more and it's only a fiver for admission.

Solomons and the NSQ Journeyman that he plays week in week out have almost completely eroded my interest in the club.

by **RDW** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 11:52 am

15 Nick McLENNAN Headscratch

14 Dougie FIFE
13 Matt SCOTT
12 Andries STRAUSS picard

11 Tim VISSER
10 Tom HEATHCOTE
9 Grayson HART

1 Rory SUTHERLAND
2 James HILTERBRAND
3 Willem NEL
4 Ollie ATKINS
5 Ben TOOLIS
6 Tomas LEONARDI
7 Roddy GRANT
8 Mike COMAN (Captain)

Substitutes

16 Neil COCHRANE
17 Grant SHIELLS
18 John ANDRESS
19 Anton BRESLER

20 Stuart McINALLY Yahoo

21 Sam HIDALGO-CLYNE
22 Greig TONKS Rolling Eyes

23 Sam BEARD

by **BigGee** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 12:09 pm

Not a great beleiver in variety is our Alan Soloman's, no experimentation there, I guess he feels that this is a must win game. Win it and Edinburgh should be going through.

Good to see Hart get a run out, he played well at the back of last season so deserves his chance. Bresler back sooner than expected and McInally covering the back row! I suppose needs must.

by **RDW** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 12:22 pm

Why oh why Mclennan is picked over Tonks, Cuthbert and Brown I really don't know.

Maybe Tonks has said he only wants to be considered as a 10 - so needs to wait on the bench for now - but Cuthbert and Brown's omission over Mclennan is just baffling.

by des Fri 05 Dec 2014, 12:27 pm

I think Strauss is Solomons' spy. He seems to have so much faith in him that it must transcend ability.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 05 Dec 2014, 12:41 pm

Real shame about McInally - total waste of time, and he was never even given a chance. On the plus side it looks like Tonks is still an option at fly half looking at the bench, which is something I'd still like to see given a fair run. Behind Russell I still don't think we have a decent option.

Otherwise it's the team I expected to see. The log jam of Strauss at 12 continues, Coman's epic leadership will be to the fore and Nick McLennan will no doubt hark back to the days of Christian Cullen and team LW apart.

On the plus side, I'm pleased that Sutherland will continue to get a run at loosehead. Delighted as always to see young SQ talent given a chance.

by Nematode Fri 05 Dec 2014, 1:33 pm

You can't really complain about McInally - nobody has come out and said he's not being considered as a hooker. Just wait and see.

These 2 games are not only must win, but could determine whether Solomons has a job at the end of the season. In some ways, I can understand the changes/players left out.

McLennan - For reasons unknown, Cuthbert's been out of the game for a bit so he could be a bit rusty (perhaps seen in training?). Tonks is FH cover and is benching because Solomons wants someone who's had game time - Tonks relatively inexperienced and this is a big game.

Strauss - If you don't pick him, you play Beard (lack of games recently) or Brown (indirectly & lack of games).

McInally benching - Either him or Denton (who's having a shocker) has back row experience. Also, Vernon has occasionally been used in the lineout for Glasgow, but is a centre.

Personally I don't think these arguments have much substance. Only what I can think AS is thinking.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 05 Dec 2014, 1:40 pm

Wouldn't say Beard has had a lack of games. He's played a bunch this season, and think it was only the last game where he missed out.

by **RDW** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 1:54 pm

Nematode wrote:You can't really complain about McInally - nobody has come out and said he's not being considered as a hooker. Just wait and see.

These 2 games are not only must win, but could determine whether Solomons has a job at the end of the season. In some ways, I can understand the changes/players left out.

McLennan - For reasons unknown, Cuthbert's been out of the game for a bit so he could be a bit rusty (perhaps seen in training?). Tonks is FH cover and is benching because Solomons wants someone who's had game time - Tonks relatively inexperienced and this is a big game.

Strauss - If you don't pick him, you play Beard (lack of games recently) or Brown (indirectly & lack of games).

McInally benching - Either him or Denton (who's having a shocker) has back row experience. Also, Vernon has occasionally been used in the lineout for Glasgow, but is a centre.

Personally I don't think these arguments have much substance. Only what I can think AS is thinking.

Tonks has been a professional rugby player for longer than Heathcoat and Mclennan put together probably!

Well, maybe not quite but he's certainly more experienced than both of them. Plus this is London Welsh for feck sake...

As I said earlier, the only reason I think is that Tonks wants to be only considered as a 10, so has to settle for the bench just now.

And as FES said - Beard has plaid played games this season.

Also, this was a prime opportunity to see Chris Dean in action.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 05 Dec 2014, 1:58 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Also, this was a prime opportunity to see Chris Dean in action.

Amen to that. I'd be there in a flash to see him play at 13 outside Matt Scott.

by Nematode Fri 05 Dec 2014, 2:04 pm

Definitely agree re Chris Dean.

Was trying to think what might have made AS make these choices - maybe he thinks Tonks is inexperienced at 10 for this game?

by MacKnocked-on Fri 05 Dec 2014, 2:15 pm

To be fair Heathcote hasn't been playing badly, his goal kicking is excellent so Tonks maybe doesn't have reason to feel too aggrieved. I would have considered playing him at 12 alongside Heathcote if Scott is staying at 13, obviously the more SQ players getting game time the better.

by **RDW** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 2:22 pm

Agreed on Heathcoat, but if Tonks isn't going to start at 10 just now then he sure as hell should be in the squad over McLennan.

Both Tonks and Cuthbert offer a very good kicking game from the back - whenever Mclennan has kicked the ball it hasn't been overly inspiring. It's not as if he's a game breaker with ball in hand too.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 05 Dec 2014, 3:32 pm

I don't mind Heathcote at 10. He's pretty solid, won't let you down with ball in hand and his goal kicking is excellent. I'd love to see him with Scott at 12, because I can't help but feel having Strauss plodding along at 12 won't help the creative juices to flow. Strauss doesn't run good lines/angles and looks merely to shift the ball sideways (slowly and with little accuracy) or run into something (without the power to make yards). Strauss doesn't offer a kicking game or any form of game management either. His only strength is his tackling, although even in that department he's slipped off a couple recently.

A good 12 can make a 10 look much better, and Matt Scott is a good 12.

by **George Carlin** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 3:40 pm

Where did McLennan even come from?

He just appeared, like an unflushable beige poo in a lavatory basin. Very, very bad for Scottish rugby that he's taking game time from Tonks, who still has the potential to improve.

by **RDW** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 3:43 pm

The level below super rugby, and even the level below that. He is SQ at least!

by VinceWLB Fri 05 Dec 2014, 3:55 pm

Too much emphasis is made on players' numbers on their shirt, as has been pointed out already Scott is inside centre when Edinburgh are attacking so i don't have a problem with it, the problem is Strauss starting at all!

Will be disappointed with anything other than a bp win.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Fri 05 Dec 2014, 4:05 pm

VinceWLB wrote:Too much emphasis is made on players' numbers on their shirt, as has been pointed out already Scott is inside centre when Edinburgh are attacking so i don't have a problem with it, the problem is Strauss starting at all!

Will be disappointed with anything other than a bp win.

I do! 12 and 13 are very different positions, especially in defence. Scotland need Scott to be playing his rugby in his proper position and developing his game there, all the time, not switching between the 2

by VinceWLB Fri 05 Dec 2014, 4:15 pm

Yes surely isn't ideal for his development as the complete package but what can be done against Solomons' stubbornness!

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Fri 05 Dec 2014, 4:19 pm

Unfortunately thats our big issue, Mr Solomons seems to look at Strauss through some sort of special 'talented rugby player' tinted glasses! Hopefully Vern has a not too quiet word in his ear on this very topic very soon

by GLove39 Fri 05 Dec 2014, 5:08 pm

Just compare the Edinburgh XV to the one the great unwashed have put out for Toulouse Rolling Eyes

15 Nick McLENNAN - Hogg
14 Dougie FIFE - Maitland
13 Matt SCOTT - Dunbar
12 Andries STRAUSS - Horne
11 Tim VISSER - Seymour
10 Tom HEATHCOTE - Russell
9 Grayson HART - Pyrgos

1 Rory SUTHERLAND - Grant
2 James HILTERBRAND - McArthur
3 Willem NEL - Welsh
4 Ollie ATKINS - Ickle Gray
5 Ben TOOLIS - Nakawara
6 Tomas LEONARDI - Harley
7 Roddy GRANT - Fusaro
8 Mike COMAN (Captain) - Strauss (Captain)

by funnyExiledScot Fri 05 Dec 2014, 5:36 pm

The only two I'd potentially quibble GLove are Grant and Nel, who I do think would have a case against Fusaro and Welsh respectively.

You are right though, and sadly the gap between the players listed is vast in some cases.

by **George Carlin** Fri 05 Dec 2014, 7:11 pm

Comparing the two captains, in particular, made me want to reach for a valium and a double gin.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 05 Dec 2014, 7:55 pm

London Welsh: Elliot Kear, Rhys Crane, Nic Reynolds, Alan Awcock, Chris Elder, Gordon Ross (C), Paul Rowley, Eddie Aholelei, Nathan Vella, Ben Cooper, Josh McNally, Matt Corker, Ben West, Carl Kirwan, Ben Pienaar.

Replacements: Nathan Morris, Shane Cahill, Jack Gilding, Daniel Browne, Lachlan McCaffrey, Rob Lewis, Nick Scott, Tom May

Resting several players and rotating a few as well. Edinburgh should put LW away fairly easily.

by funnyExiledScot Fri 05 Dec 2014, 9:11 pm

Well we know all about Gordon Ross, or at least what he was like 10 years ago!!

If we lose it will be embarrassing.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 05 Dec 2014, 10:11 pm

Gordon Ross has a great tactical kicking game but not a lot else. He got them promoted by putting their pack in the right areas and then either forcing their way either with brute force or forcing the opposition to kick to a very good counter attacking back three. Deb Jewel was at the heart of a lot of that and he's clearly being rested ahead of the AP.

by funnyExiledScot Sat 06 Dec 2014, 7:37 am

Ross will have a lot of supporters on these boards with Scotland fans. Many of us, myself included, could never quite figure out why he was so swiftly discarded by Scotland for the Parks/Godman car crash. As you say, not a complete player, but for international rugby you need only be better than your competition.

Still, at 36 I can't see him pulling down trees, and if this hopeless Edinburgh side has any strengths then the two wingers with ball in hand is it, so if LW think a kicking game is the way forward then they'd better get it right.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 06 Dec 2014, 12:39 pm

It's been their major failing this season. Barkley et al just don't have the kicking game Ross has and so LW have no field position. Ross is excellent at dropping the ball into the corners but lacks range from the tee and you should be sending an big ball carriers you have down his channel.

Not sure he was ever international quality but Godman certainly never has been. He was certainly a real asset for LW over the years in the Championship and if he was five years younger I think a bigger team would be look to take him on as a back up.

by TJ Sat 06 Dec 2014, 7:39 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:Ross will have a lot of supporters on these boards with Scotland fans. Many of us, myself included, could never quite figure out why he was so swiftly discarded by Scotland for the Parks/Godman car crash.

Agreed. He did lose some form then spent time playing for a poor team dfown south. Seemed to put him right out of the reckoning. I saw him play a couple of times and he was solid if unspectactular

by Nematode Sun 07 Dec 2014, 12:13 pm

~~Carl Bezuidenhout (knee), Wicus Blaauw (knee)~~, Phil Burleigh (knee), Allan Dell (leg), David Denton (shoulder), Alasdair Dickinson (Achilles), Cornell Du Preez (leg), J~~amie Farndale (~~knee), Ross Ford (back), ~~Hugh Fraser~~ (knee), Grant Gilchrist (arm), ~~Brett Thompson (shoulder)~~ and Hamish Watson (jaw).

Once you amend the list for players that have hardly featured, this injury 'crisis' isn't a huge problem. No injury excuses against LW please AS.

Btw, anyone know what's happened to the likes of Tait/Walker/Audl/Dean/Hoyland - are they playing for clubs?

by **RDW** Sun 07 Dec 2014, 12:20 pm

Tait - injured
Walker - released apparently but still listed
Auld - London Scottish loan
Dean - not getting picked
Hoyland - 7s usually

To be fair that's still 8 first team players on the injury list, and one is our problems is lack of strength in depth!

by justified sinner Sun 07 Dec 2014, 12:26 pm

RDW_Scotland wrote:Tait - injured
Walker - released apparently but still listed
Auld - London Scottish loan
Dean - not getting picked
Hoyland - 7s usually - in Dubai this weekend helping them to runners up in the Plate

To be fair that's still 8 first team players on the injury list, and one is our problems is lack of strength in depth!

by justified sinner Sun 07 Dec 2014, 12:30 pm

Meanwhile back to today's game. On my way to the Roseburn, weather looks OK and hopefully the promised snow will stay away. Really need the win and BP after Bordeaux's BP win yesterday.

by **George Carlin** Sun 07 Dec 2014, 12:37 pm

I couldn't bring myself to read the piece in the Hootsmon with 'Mister Leadership' Coman where he actually had the stones to sit and say that he wasn't sure where it was all going wrong but that Edinburgh now had a great defence, so everything in the future was going to be as super as a partially clothed pillow fight with a Victoria's Secret model*.

* I am paraphasing, but I am also urined off with the team, so make your own judgement as to how accurately I am surmising this.

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