Kingspan Stadium to Host Pro12 Final

First topic message reminder :

New development for the League,


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/30980843

Final is going to be annoced in advance from now on,

TBH I don't like this idea at all.

All the hosts of the final so far have been able to sell it out before hand, it rewards the team that finishes higher in the league, and what happens is say the final is Ospreys V Glasgow are all these fans expected to travel to Belfast?

Better have the higher team in the League host it, other wise I can see the final being mostly played out in with mostly neutral crowds.

Don Alfonso wrote:Or the WRU voted for Belfast, is that it?

Good ol' WRU.

Of course they bloody did.

Played 5 Pro12 games against Welsh teams;

1 Irish ref
1 Welsh
1 Italian
2 Scottish

Fail to see the problem. And even in that question is built in an assumption that we get some sort of advantage from an Irish ref. Let me tell you, if we are playing a Welsh team I would rather have a Welsh ref than an Irish ref because when a referee is in a situation he can be accused of bias he will normally over-compensate in the opposite direction.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Chunky - go on Twitter. The Pro!2 have confirmed that all parties voted, and all voted unanimously for Belfast.

Can you post a link to the tweet? Thanks

https://twitter.com/PRO12rugby/with_replies


Sorry it's not more exact - but scroll down to under the picture of Tommy O'Donnell.

What is interesting is that it can be read that the Unions were invited to bid serparately from the clubs?.Am I mad or is that how it reads?

All I can see is:

PRO12RUGBY ‏@PRO12rugby Jan 26

@GavinWeston69 Office based in Dublin but run by 12 clubs and 4 unions, all of whom were invited to bid. Belfast won unanimously.
0 replies 2 retweets 0 favorites
#runfatboyrun ‏@Tircoeds Jan 26

@PRO12rugby @GavinWeston69 who voted ?
0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites
PRO12RUGBY ‏@PRO12rugby Jan 26

@Tircoeds @GavinWeston69 all voted
0 replies 1 retweet 0 favorites

That implies all "parties" voted. i.e. the Unions. Who would quite clearly vote for a big shiny Union owned stadium.

In the official pro12 release it says "all parties unanimously voted".

I can see nothing to suggest that any of the clubs voted.

Mark Davies, CEO of Regional Rugby Wales is a director of Celtic League Ltd so he would have had a vote.
Garrett Fitzgerald seems to represent the Irish Provinces (Eddie Wigglesworth used to I think).
Dominic McKay reps the Scots and the Italians also have reps.

Unions are represented by Roger Lewis, Philip Browne for example.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Or the WRU voted for Belfast, is that it?

Good ol' WRU.

Of course they bloody did.

So did Mark Davies, CEO of Regional Rugby Wales

Notch wrote:Played 5 Pro12 games against Welsh teams;

1 Irish
1 Welsh
1 Italian
2 Scottish

Fail to see the problem.

I do not count Nigel Patterson as Scottish, he was born in Northern Ireland, grew up in Northern Ireland, and speaks with a Northern Irish accent. If it were not for Nigel Owens running the line before christmas, Ospreys would not have beaten Ulster so convincingly. Never have I seen such awful decisions in favour of Ulster been put correct by a linesman.

Don Alfonso wrote:Or the WRU voted for Belfast, is that it?

Good ol' WRU.

Now you're getting it.

Can someone post a link to the letter from the Pro!2 to the OSC?

And Chunky, why do you read "parties" as excluding the clubs? The tweet outlines "!2 clubs and 4 unions" - why does "parties" pertain only to "unions"?

Why don't you tweet the Pro12 and ask for clarification?

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Played 5 Pro12 games against Welsh teams;

1 Irish
1 Welsh
1 Italian
2 Scottish

Fail to see the problem.

I do not count Nigel Patterson as Scottish, he was born in Northern Ireland, grew up in Northern Ireland, and speaks with a Northern Irish accent. If it were not for Nigel Owens running the line before christmas, Ospreys would not have beaten Ulster so convincingly. Never have I seen such awful decisions in favour of Ulster been put correct by a linesman.

He's incompetent. We have suffered many times at the hands of Patterson. If you had actually watched all the games he's reffed Ulster in you would understand how ridiculous you are being.

I have no idea how you could have watched that incident and come to the conclusion he was biased. He clearly missed the Ospreys knock-on which was the only reason to disallow the try. Once that was pointed out to him he reversed his decision.

The other point you bring up about Owens running the line- not relevant to that game, but normally if they have to have a ref from the same nation as one of the teams they have Assisstant refs from the other nation.

Don Alfonso wrote:Can someone post a link to the letter from the Pro!2 to the OSC?

And Chunky, why do you read "parties" as excluding the clubs? The tweet outlines "!2 clubs and 4 unions" - why does "parties" pertain only to "unions"?

Why don't you tweet the Pro12 and ask for clarification?

I've told you where it is, why don't you go and do it yourself?

wayne wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Or the WRU voted for Belfast, is that it?

Good ol' WRU.

Now you're getting it.

In fariness, I'm only jesting. I see no reason at all to imagine that it wasn't the regions as well, except that it would undermine some people's high-handedness.

wayne wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Can someone post a link to the letter from the Pro!2 to the OSC?

And Chunky, why do you read "parties" as excluding the clubs? The tweet outlines "!2 clubs and 4 unions" - why does "parties" pertain only to "unions"?

Why don't you tweet the Pro12 and ask for clarification?

I've told you where it is, why don't you go and do it yourself?

Well, when someone asked me to post the Pro12 tweet, despite that fact that I'd already said where it was, I did. I expcted the same cvility. Never mind.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:Chunky - go on Twitter. The Pro!2 have confirmed that all parties voted, and all voted unanimously for Belfast.

Can you post a link to the tweet? Thanks

https://twitter.com/PRO12rugby/with_replies


Sorry it's not more exact - but scroll down to under the picture of Tommy O'Donnell.

What is interesting is that it can be read that the Unions were invited to bid serparately from the clubs?.Am I mad or is that how it reads?

All I can see is:

PRO12RUGBY ‏@PRO12rugby Jan 26

@GavinWeston69 Office based in Dublin but run by 12 clubs and 4 unions, all of whom were invited to bid. Belfast won unanimously.
0 replies 2 retweets 0 favorites
#runfatboyrun ‏@Tircoeds Jan 26

@PRO12rugby @GavinWeston69 who voted ?
0 replies 0 retweets 0 favorites
PRO12RUGBY ‏@PRO12rugby Jan 26

@Tircoeds @GavinWeston69 all voted
0 replies 1 retweet 0 favorites

That implies all "parties" voted. i.e. the Unions. Who would quite clearly vote for a big shiny Union owned stadium.

In the official pro12 release it says "all parties unanimously voted".

I can see nothing to suggest that any of the clubs voted.

Mark Davies, CEO of Regional Rugby Wales is a director of Celtic League Ltd so he would have had a vote.
Garrett Fitzgerald seems to represent the Irish Provinces (Eddie Wigglesworth used to I think).
Dominic McKay reps the Scots and the Italians also have reps.

Unions are represented by Roger Lewis, Philip Browne for example.

So now we've gone from the Ospreys voting to the PRW voting? What next?

I'm not counting it out that each region didn't vote, I'm just saying I have not seen 1 bit of evidence to say they do. The PRO12 official statements and tweets have not said this.

PRW by the way is not a signatory to the celtic accord.

Notch wrote:The other point you bring up about Owens running the line- not relevant to that game, but normally if they have to have a ref from the same nation as one of the teams they have Assisstant refs from the other nation.

How often do the assistant refs get ignored by the ref.

Also, during that game, which I was at, Nigel owens was constantly pointing his errors out to him, and putting right.

Don Alfonso wrote:
The tweet outlines "!2 clubs and 4 unions" - why does "parties" pertain only to "unions"?

No it doesn't. The tweet simply says:

"All voted"

All what voted?

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Played 5 Pro12 games against Welsh teams;

1 Irish
1 Welsh
1 Italian
2 Scottish

Fail to see the problem.

I do not count Nigel Patterson as Scottish, he was born in Northern Ireland, grew up in Northern Ireland, and speaks with a Northern Irish accent. If it were not for Nigel Owens running the line before christmas, Ospreys would not have beaten Ulster so convincingly. Never have I seen such awful decisions in favour of Ulster been put correct by a linesman.

From what I can see, the issue is that Ireland produces more refs. To solve the problem of getting fewer Irish reps the best thing to do would be for other Unions to produce more.

Whats your problems - Nigel was there for a reason. If he wasn't you would have something to whinge about or if Patterson ignored him.

Sin é wrote:The solve the problem of getting Irish reps the best thing to do would be for other Unions to produce more.

Ireland has one more ref than Wales in the Pro12, so we produce the same amount.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/referees.php

Also, what were they voting for? Ravenhill versus Scotstoun?

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:The solve the problem of getting Irish reps the best thing to do would be for other Unions to produce more.

Ireland has one more ref than Wales in the Pro12, so we produce the same amount.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/referees.php

Goig by the ties I'd say IRFU have 7 to WRU 5.

The thing is, it used to be very strict- you had to have a neutral ref for games between teams from different nations. But then everyone complained and complained that the quality of reffing was extremely low (it was). There wasn't anywhere near enough good Scottish refs to do that. It was spoiling games because we had referees who weren't good enough for this level being pushed forward.

So they had to change it so that it was the best referees regardless of nationality. The standard of refereeing improved, still needs to go up, but things got better. Then you get the conspiracy theorists up in arms. Another no win scenario.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sin é wrote:The solve the problem of getting Irish reps the best thing to do would be for other Unions to produce more.

Ireland has one more ref than Wales in the Pro12, so we produce the same amount.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/referees.php

I said Unions, not just Wales. We need more Scottish & Italian refs.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Also, what were they voting for? Ravenhill versus Scotstoun?

I'd imagine that the other 3 regions outvoted the Os and Mark Davies was mandated to vote for the neutral venue & for Ravenhill as the representative to the Board of Celtic Rugby Ltd.

LordDowlais wrote: It's the same reason why the Welsh regions always have an Irish ref when playing the Irish provinces.

Not sure that statement really holds up. Based on matches so far this season between the Irish provinces and welsh regions the breakdown of referees in as below, showing there are actually fewer Irish associated refs in these games this season.

Leinster 2 Italian 1 Scottish 1 Welsh
Connacht 1Irish 1 Italian 1 Scottish 1 welsh
Munster 3 Italian 1 welsh
Ulster 1 Irish 1 Italian 2 Scottish 1 Welsh

Total 7 Italian 2 Irish 4 Scottish 4 Welsh

Stewie15 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: It's the same reason why the Welsh regions always have an Irish ref when playing the Irish provinces.

Not sure that statement really holds up. Based on matches so far this season between the Irish provinces and welsh regions the breakdown of referees in as below, showing there are actually fewer Irish associated refs in these games this season.

Leinster 2 Italian 1 Scottish 1 Welsh
Connacht 1Irish 1 Italian 1 Scottish 1 welsh
Munster 3 Italian 1 welsh
Ulster 1 Irish 1 Italian 2 Scottish 1 Welsh

Total 7 Italian 2 Irish 4 Scottish 4 Welsh

So Irish provinces have had Welsh referees more often then Irish referees? Clear evidence of corruption if you ask me. Its all a fix. The league is run by the Welsh for the Welsh. Sam Warburton was the second gunman on the grassy knoll. Etc. etc.

Stewie15 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: It's the same reason why the Welsh regions always have an Irish ref when playing the Irish provinces.

Not sure that statement really holds up. Based on matches so far this season between the Irish provinces and welsh regions the breakdown of referees in as below, showing there are actually fewer Irish associated refs in these games this season.

Leinster 2 Italian 1 Scottish 1 Welsh
Connacht 1Irish 1 Italian 1 Scottish 1 welsh
Munster 3 Italian 1 welsh
Ulster 1 Irish 1 Italian 2 Scottish 1 Welsh

Total 7 Italian 2 Irish 4 Scottish 4 Welsh

Take a look at Nigel Pattersons credentials and you will see he is NOT Scottish.

Pfff, facts. You can prove anything with facts!

Notch wrote:Pfff, facts. You can prove anything with facts!

I know what you are saying, but in this case the FACTS are true, the man is from Northern Ireland, he is about as much a scottsman as I am.

Sin é wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:Also, what were they voting for? Ravenhill versus Scotstoun?

I'd imagine that the other 3 regions outvoted the Os and Mark Davies was mandated to vote for the neutral venue & for Ravenhill as the representative to the Board of Celtic Rugby Ltd.

What my question was alluding to, is that the only suitable venue that was put forward was Ravenhill. I am not aware of any other eligible venue that put a bid in.

Which means that there was only one venue that could have been voted for no?

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Pfff, facts. You can prove anything with facts!

I know what you are saying, but in this case the FACTS are true, the man is from Northern Ireland, he is about as much a scottsman as I am.

So count him as Irish if you must. That still leaves- absolute worst case scenario- the same number of games between Irish and Welsh sides reffed by Welsh refs as by Irish refs and the majority handled by neutrals.

LordDowlais wrote:

Notch wrote:Pfff, facts. You can prove anything with facts!

I know what you are saying, but in this case the FACTS are true, the man is from Northern Ireland, he is about as much a scottsman as I am.

Correct. Of course he's from Northern Ireland. It's like the Steve Walsh being Australian thing.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stewie15 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: It's the same reason why the Welsh regions always have an Irish ref when playing the Irish provinces.

Not sure that statement really holds up. Based on matches so far this season between the Irish provinces and welsh regions the breakdown of referees in as below, showing there are actually fewer Irish associated refs in these games this season.

Leinster 2 Italian 1 Scottish 1 Welsh
Connacht 1Irish 1 Italian 1 Scottish 1 welsh
Munster 3 Italian 1 welsh
Ulster 1 Irish 1 Italian 2 Scottish 1 Welsh

Total 7 Italian 2 Irish 4 Scottish 4 Welsh

Take a look at Nigel Pattersons credentials and you will see he is NOT Scottish.

Can you link me to his background, all I can find is that he was born in Belfast. How long was he there?

If you really believe he's Irish (which I don't necessarily agree with), he was the 'Scottish' referee in question 3 times so that would make it 5 Irish to 4 welsh? Hardly damning statistics!

Neil John Stewart Paterson, but better known to friends as Paddy, born Belfast on 9 August 1975 and was educated in Belfast at Sullivan Upper Grammar School, a large coeducational, non-denominational grammar school in the original Holywood which is in Northern Ireland.

Then he stepped the short way across the water, to Dundee University where he qualified as a dentist in 1999.

Paterson first played club rugby for Malone, Northern Ireland and stayed with them even when in Dundee trekking back for matches. Later he played for Dundee High School Former Pupils.

Paddy the Scottish ref.

12% of Irish-Welsh games reffed by Irish refs.

Include Patterson (who as an SRU ref presumably doesn't get the secret internal IRFU e-mails regarding controlling the financial markets, overthrowing governments in Central America and keeping Welsh Rugby down) and that goes up to 29%.

Hardly shows that Welsh teams get an Irish ref 'every time'. And thats before we even debunk the myth regarding Irish refs influencing the result in any way.

So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

OSPREYS v Irish Provinces
27/09 - Munster v Ospreys - Referee: Neil Hennessy (WRU) – Ospreys Won
31/10 - Ospreys v Connacht – Refreee: John Lacey (IRFU) - Won
21/11 – Ulster v Ospreys - Referee: Neil Hennessy (WRU) - Lost
28/11 – Leinster v Ospreys – Marius Mitrea (FIR) - Lost
20/12 – Ospreys v Ulster – Neil Praterson (SRU) – Won

ULSTER v Welsh Regions
06/09 – Scarlets v Ulster - Referee: Peter Fitzgibbon (IRFU) – Draw
19/09 – Blues v Ulster  - Neil Praterson (SRU) – Ulster Won
01/11 – Ulster v Dragons – Matteo Liperini – (FIR) - Won
21/11 – Ulster v Ospreys - Referee: Neil Hennessy (WRU) - Won
20/12 – Ospreys v Ulster – Neil Praterson (SRU) – Lost

Now for a bit of SHOPPING !!

Notch wrote:When it comes right down to it, everything in rugby is an Irish conspiracy. We're like the Illuminati and the Freemasons rolled into one

Surely the O' Illuminati and the Fitzmasons?

Chunky Norwich wrote:So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

Why would you want anyone to confirm that? Just believe it.

According to Wales Online, they were "short-listed along with Glasgow".

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

Why would you want anyone to confirm that? Just believe it.

According to Wales Online, they were "short-listed along with Glasgow".

Who was in charge of the "short-listing" ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

Why would you want anyone to confirm that? Just believe it.

According to Wales Online, they were "short-listed along with Glasgow".

Who was in charge of the "short-listing" ?

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

Why would you want anyone to confirm that? Just believe it.

According to Wales Online, they were "short-listed along with Glasgow".

Who was in charge of the "short-listing" ?

Only two interested in hosting it?

(Thomond Park wasn't available for instance so they didn't put themselves forward).

If you don't like that, you can blame the former CEO of Glasgow Rugby who is now Celtic Rugby Ltd Tournament Director

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

Why would you want anyone to confirm that? Just believe it.

According to Wales Online, they were "short-listed along with Glasgow".

So if the only choice was the Kingspan, then of course everybody voted for the Kingspan. Therefore this post is a little silly:

Dan Alfonso wrote:Why, then, did they actually vote? Why was that not hypocritical?

They've already freely admitted they couldn't afford to host it, so they wouldn't have bid even if they had agreed with the process. So givng up their right to bid hasn't made much practical difference.

But they don't disapprove of the idea so much that they were prepared to give up their right to help decide wher it should be. No, they're not going to make that meaningful sacrifice for principle.

"We're disgusted and don't want to play any part in thsi travesty of a farce!"

"So you're abstaining?"

"What? Er, no. Belfast - une point"

LordDowlais wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

Why would you want anyone to confirm that? Just believe it.

According to Wales Online, they were "short-listed along with Glasgow".

Who was in charge of the "short-listing" ?

They asked me. I'm from Belfast and have family from Glasgow. Didn't have to spend to long thinking about it, to be honest.

They did ask for a second opinion - some guy called Neil Paterson, I think.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:So can anybody confirm that the Kingspan was the only venue which could have been voted for?

Why would you want anyone to confirm that? Just believe it.

According to Wales Online, they were "short-listed along with Glasgow".

So if the only choice was the Kingspan, then of course everybody voted for the Kingspan. Therefore this post is a little silly:

Dan Alfonso wrote:Why, then, did they actually vote? Why was that not hypocritical?

They've already freely admitted they couldn't afford to host it, so they wouldn't have bid even if they had agreed with the process. So givng up their right to bid hasn't made much practical difference.

But they don't disapprove of the idea so much that they were prepared to give up their right to help decide wher it should be. No, they're not going to make that meaningful sacrifice for principle.

"We're disgusted and don't want to play any part in thsi travesty of a farce!"

"So you're abstaining?"

"What? Er, no. Belfast - une point"

Why could they not have voted for Scotstoun?

In other words.................roll up roll up and get your tenders in for the final.

[but we've only got one eligible bid in]

Roll up roll up and casts your vote for the final. But you can only vote for Ulster. Because they're the only ones eligible.

Ulster it is!!!!!

Don Alfonso wrote:

Why could they not have voted for Scotstoun?

Because it isn't eligible.

There is even doubt now whether the Liberty is eligible going by the "facilities required by the Pro12"

Joke.

Chunky Norwich wrote:In other words.................roll up roll up and get your tenders in for the final.

[but we've only got one eligible bid in]

Roll up roll up and casts your vote for the final. But you can only vote for Ulster. Because they're the only ones eligible.

Ulster it is!!!!!

If Ulster was the only eligible grounds, then why all the fuss?


Maybe the final will be held in Ulster every year

Munchkin wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:In other words.................roll up roll up and get your tenders in for the final.

[but we've only got one eligible bid in]

Roll up roll up and casts your vote for the final. But you can only vote for Ulster. Because they're the only ones eligible.

Ulster it is!!!!!

If Ulster was the only eligible grounds, then why all the fuss?


Maybe the final will be held in Ulster every year

Because people are saying that everybody voted for Ulster on merit based on it's outstanding bid - because Ulster are so amazing at everything therefore the pro12 is an amazing league. Probably the best in the world infact.

When infact we know that Ulster won a 1 horse race. Because the rest are presumably so disgusted with the league they lost the will to live.

The laws for the final venue choice, stipulate that there has to be two 5 star hotels - 1 for each finalist

This is getting better. I'm now laughing out loud at this joke of a competition.

But then maybe Ulster was awarded the final based on merit? If none of the eligible venues wanted the final, for whatever reasons, other than Ulster and Glasgow, then why the complaints?

I can understand people being unhappy with the change, I'm not happy , but to complain that the final has been awarded to Ulster is a bit silly.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Why could they not have voted for Scotstoun?

Because it isn't eligible.

So they shortlisted one that isn't eligible?