A disgrace to football

First topic message reminder :

http://www.theguardian.com/football/video/2015/feb/17/chelsea-fans-prevent-black-man-boarding-paris-metro-video

Identify them and ban them for life

Of course an experience completely contrary will show up just as I post never mind,

super_realist wrote:

westisbest wrote:

super_realist wrote:I'm not pinning it on football, I'm sure they'd be racist anyway, but they are representing football fans whether we like it or not.

Sport, and football in particular is utterly appalling at dealing with racist issues. The fines and bans are derisory, and it is clear it does almost nothing to counteract it.

These guys, because of the situation are seen as football fans who are racist, I'm not sure how you can attempt to take football out of it. They are representing football, and football needs to deal with people like that far more strongly than they do.
It's no use saying "no real football fans would do that", because it's clear they do.

A real football fan to me is someone that goes to watch their team play, with friends/family.

Have a good time, enjoy it. then go and enjoy the rest of the weekend.





Not to go for trouble and be racist.

As I've already said, that's the no true Scotsman fallacy. Is a kiddie fiddling priest not a Catholic?

We may not like what they do, but it doesn't mean they're not football fans. Football needs to stop trying to distance themselves from it, and do something about it. I've no idea how they would, but for a start, punishments from UEFA/FIFA need to amount to a lot more than a niggardly 30k fine.

Well to me there not real football fans for the reason i said.
Bit hung up on this religion lark aren't you.
My word.

No, it doesn't matter whether you consider them football fans, they are football fans by definition, otherwise, they could simply step out their front door to do racist acts.
There's racists in every walk of life, are we going to pretend that they aren't "real" whatever they are just so people feel better about it?

Football doesn't have any more of a problem than any other interest, but it's perhaps more visible by it's nature, but let's not try and differentiate, they are football fans, the only difference is they are racist in addition.

They are English football fans. This cannot be denied

I think the point people are making, as you rightly know, is that their behaviour shows them not to be fans of football if they think this is correct. It's not about the literal interpretation of whether they enjoy taking in the football, it's about showing that their antics are not what football is about. It is a condemnation of their behaviour.

No one is saying these people weren't there to watch football or attempting to distance themselves from the group so as to avoid responsibility, it's condemning them

Seems a bit of a copout to claim they aren't "real" football fans. If we go down that route, we can claim someone doesn't belong to a particular group simply because they do something that people disagree with.

Are speeding drivers not "real" drivers? Could go on and on.

It's obvious that racism should not be part of football (or anything), however there are football fans who also happen to be racist, just as there are football fans who are fat, thin, stupid, intelligent etc etc.
To deny football fans can't be racist is pretty naive.

Steffan wrote:

Stella wrote:Yes, a disgrace. I know these are Chelsea fans, but I hope the club doesn't get fined for this.

The club has an endless pot of money so a fine is nothing. Ban Chelsea from Europe for a couple of seasons maybe? That will get the message across

If you banned Chelsea from Europe for this then there would be no football. I see these type of fans at most games I've been to. It is more of a social problem than a football problem.

If you ban Chelsea for this, then you have to ban Italy from Euro 2016 for Arrigo Sacchi's comments too and that would just be the tip of the iceberg.

I've never seen racism at football and I go to watch football at a club where the area has been completely changed in ethnic make up and cultural diversity, in what would be regarded as a poor, working class area.

Again, SR, you are missing the point. I would start to think you're being contrary for the sake of it. People are not saying "these are just people, they shouldn't be connected to football" they are saying they are not real "fans" because they are not supporting the club or the sport. There is no literal definition, but it is based on common parlance and assumed knowledge. By saying these peopl are not real football fans they are shaming them.

And Steffan, I find your quite constant English bashing really disappointing and on the brink of offensive.

They may be Chelsea fans.

They don't represent Chelsea football club or its fans.

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:And Steffan, I find your quite constant English bashing really disappointing and on the brink of offensive

Why disappointing?

As well as the disgusting abuse the poor fellow was getting, I find it equally deplorable that no right-minded person actually confronts the abusers or gives the victim any sort of help.

Indeed, upon witnessing the incident, one idiot thinks it is more vital to film it on their phone rather than give any assistance.

And they are clearly not Chelsea fans, as the link suggests: how they can support a team with so many dark-skinned players, if they are "racist and that's the way we like it"?

Identify, banning orders, take passports etc.

Personally I think the guy who physically stopped him getting on the train should be done for a racial assault

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:And Steffan, I find your quite constant English bashing really disappointing and on the brink of offensive.

I find it quite sad that he uses this disgraceful act as a platform for his English-bashing.

Similar to the way Muslims distance themselves from the nutty bombers. I'm guessing some people are using this incident to have a go at the English. Irony.

Duty281 wrote:As well as the disgusting abuse the poor fellow was getting, I find it equally deplorable that no right-minded person actually confronts the abusers or gives the victim any sort of help.

Indeed, upon witnessing the incident, one idiot thinks it is more vital to film it on their phone rather than give any assistance.

And they are clearly not Chelsea fans, as the link suggests: how they can support a team with so many dark-skinned players, if they are "racist and that's the way we like it"?

Identify, banning orders, take passports etc.

Would you, if you were on your own? I wouldn't.

So you can't be a racist if you support a club with black players? Don't be daft, they support the club first and foremost. Look at fans in Russia who've been found guilty of racial abuse, their clubs had black players but it didn't stop them chucking bananas at oppositions players did it?

Steffan wrote:

Dolphin Ziggler wrote:And Steffan, I find your quite constant English bashing really disappointing and on the brink of offensive

Why disappointing?

I find all small minded behaviour disappointing

hampo171 wrote:So you can't be a racist if you support a club with black players? Don't be daft, they support the club first and foremost. Look at fans in Russia who've been found guilty of racial abuse, their clubs had black players but it didn't stop them chucking bananas at oppositions players did it?

Are you referring to me?

I did not say you cannot be a racist if you support a club with black players, I were saying you surely cannot support a team with dark-skinned players if you are a racist - i.e. this lot were not Chelsea supporters.

Duty281 wrote:this lot were not Chelsea supporters.

I am willing to bet any money that these people had been to the match supporting Chelsea

Again, why can't you support a team with black players if you're racist? These guys will have supported Chelsea long before these players arrived and will likely support them long after they leave, they support the club first and foremost.

What about the fans of Russian teams who racial abuse opposition players, despite having black players playing for their team? Do they not support their club either?

No, I get what you're saying but people are almost trying to brush them under the carpet by claiming they aren't real fans. almost pretending that football doesn't have a problem, because these aren't "real" fans.

Think your all getting really far away from the point. The people that did this were racist pr!cks who happened to be going to a football game. If they were going to a rugby game then they'd be racist pr!cks who happened to be going to a rugby game.
The same way that Steffan is using this as an excuse to have a go at the english, they used football as an exuse to go somewhere and be racist.

They'd probably do the same thing if they were all going on a stag do, or a night out. Chelsea should only be punished if they refuse to do anything about the fans otherwise what do you honestly expect them to have done.

Fifa/Uefa etc on the other hand need to get a grip on some of the crap that happens in the ground and stop fining people peanuts and giving excuses.

People travelling abroad to support their team are very much "real" fans

These idiots didn't exactly go there for the art did they...

Steffan wrote:People travelling abroad to support their team are very much "real" fans

These idiots didn't exactly go there for the art did they...

Probably went for trouble.

They are football fans, who are also racist idiots, one isn't exclusive to the other.

Derbymanc wrote:Think your all getting really far away from the point. The people that did this were racist pr!cks who happened to be going to a football game. If they were going to a rugby game then they'd be racist pr!cks who happened to be going to a rugby game.
The same way that Steffan is using this as an excuse to have a go at the english, they used football as an exuse to go somewhere and be racist.

They'd probably do the same thing if they were all going on a stag do, or a night out. Chelsea should only be punished if they refuse to do anything about the fans otherwise what do you honestly expect them to have done.

Fifa/Uefa etc on the other hand need to get a grip on some of the crap that happens in the ground and stop fining people peanuts and giving excuses.

Quite right on that last bit. FIFA/UEFA have done very little to induce people to keep their racist beliefs to themselves. There is virtually zero punishment for racist behaviour, on or off pitch.
I don't think there is a massive racism problem in football, but not doing anything when it does crop up is something to be more annoyed about. If the governing bodies don't see it as an issue, how on earth are you supposed to convince bone headed football shirt wearing supporters that it isn't right?

Completely agree, don't bother with games under closed doors, immediately ban them from competitions for repeated infractions. Some of these people (especially in eastern europe) see themselves as ultra fans and this would have more impact than anything else.

Should be an immediate life ban from all games for anyone found guilty

I've often wondered how a life ban would work, who's there to compare mugshots of people coming through the turnstile and eject them?

I believe the security office deal with it and report any signs of a banned fan to the police to eject them.

Chuck them in jail for a while I reckon

super_realist wrote:No, it doesn't matter whether you consider them football fans, they are football fans by definition, otherwise, they could simply step out their front door to do racist acts.
There's racists in every walk of life, are we going to pretend that they aren't "real" whatever they are just so people feel better about it?

Football doesn't have any more of a problem than any other interest, but it's perhaps more visible by it's nature, but let's not try and differentiate, they are football fans, the only difference is they are racist in addition.

For me they are not real football fans as in then they don't to to games for the right reason.

The right reason is not to be racist.

Of course, and you might get someone who thinks having prawn sandwiches at half time doesn't make you a real fan, or if you don't wear a football shirt you arne't a real fan, or if you haven't got a club tattoo you aren't a real fan.

Bottom line, these guys, by the loosest definition are football fans. Whether they fall into what we consider acceptable behaviour is something completely different.

Football, has done nothing to disuade people like this from acting this way. There is zero punishment. So what you really have to ask, is whether the governing bodies, FA/UEFA/FIFA are "real" fans of the game by your definition, as they routinely and repeatedly let this go on unpunished, or with only the lightest and most cursory of punishments.

super_realist wrote:Of course, and you might get someone who thinks having prawn sandwiches at half time doesn't make you a real fan, or if you don't wear a football shirt you arne't a real fan, or if you haven't got a club tattoo you aren't a real fan.

Bottom line, these guys, by the loosest definition are football fans. Whether they fall into what we consider acceptable behaviour is something completely different.

Football, has done nothing to disuade people like this from acting this way. There is zero punishment. So what you really have to ask, is whether the governing bodies, FA/UEFA/FIFA are "real" fans of the game by your definition, as they routinely and repeatedly let this go on unpunished, or with only the lightest and most cursory of punishments.

No they're not, look after their own individual interests rather than footballs as a whole. Could make a stand about many issue but don't and it's all about money rather than morals (See Qatar, Russia, laughable closed door games and the inability to deal wit the little things.)

super_realist wrote:I've often wondered how a life ban would work, who's there to compare mugshots of people coming through the turnstile and eject them?

I read a comedy book about a fan who's banned, then evades the local coppers by dressing in fancy dress every week. Funnier than it sounds.

TheSecondComing wrote:

super_realist wrote:I've often wondered how a life ban would work, who's there to compare mugshots of people coming through the turnstile and eject them?

I read a comedy book about a fan who's banned, then evades the local coppers by dressing in fancy dress every week. Funnier than it sounds.

What was he banned for?

These guys presumably go to the doctor on occasion. What has the NHS done to dissuade this behaviour?

These guys may have been football fans

They sure as hell don't represent them.

GSC wrote:These guys presumably go to the doctor on occasion. What has the NHS done to dissuade this behaviour?

These guys may have been football fans

They sure as hell don't represent them.

THey aren't running around a hospital being racist to people are they? What a rubbish simile.

Now, the point is that racism in football, on or off the pitch isn't punished by anything other than derisory fines by the governing bodies. It's turning a blind eye to racism effectively and letting individuals know there isn't any real punishment for them or for the club. It isn't condoning it, but it's doing nothing to point it out as unacceptable.

I fully expect Chelsea to act on identification of these people.

Chelsea won't do anything about it. That's the kind of club they are

What punishment would you give the club for an incident that happened at a metro station?

Should Derby County be punished if i'd decided yesterday to smash up some idiots car yesterday cause I was in my derby top and we played???

The police should be looking into this with the help of the club

These guys committed a crime

Steffan wrote:The police should be looking into this with the help of the club

These guys committed a crime

They did, though if they had pushed a white man, would it be a bigger crime?

Stella wrote:

Steffan wrote:The police should be looking into this with the help of the club

These guys committed a crime

They did, though if they had pushed a white man, would it be a bigger crime?

No because this is technically a race hate crime

Derbymanc wrote:What punishment would you give the club for an incident that happened at a metro station?

Should Derby County be punished if i'd decided yesterday to smash up some idiots car yesterday cause I was in my derby top and we played???

Well, for starters you should be punished for wearing a football shirt as an adult.

Why the hell would anyone want to be wearing a Derby County shirt for starters?

To win a bet?

They weren't running around a football pitch either...

Steffan wrote:Why the hell would anyone want to be wearing a Derby County shirt for starters?

Same reason the Africans get the SB Champion T Shirts made for the team that lost

Clearly these men are a disgrace to the French Train system

I for one demand to know what they plan to do about it