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if Manny beats Money...

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Derbymanc
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Post by theanimal316 Sun 12 Apr 2015, 8:38 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hey fellas

Simple question that I wanted your to hear your opinions on. Should Manny win in 3 weeks,would you place him above Mayweather on your ATG list? Do many of you have Manny above Floyd already?

Cheers!

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Post by hazharrison Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:25 pm

Marlonz wrote:So what are your thoughts on Ariza then Truss?

He wouldn't care less if Mayweather posted a video of himself shooting up on Instagram. His heroes include Lance Armstrong and a bunch of steroid monkey body builders!!

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Post by Derbymanc Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:25 pm

It's a good question to ask Marlon but it's the same as when noone was questoning Manny about Roach's comments 'he used to be given special shakes'

IMO noone wants to ask the question directly for fear of being barred from access for the best boxers of our generation and being shouted down by the major fanboys.

Plus there's enough fans that will bring it up constantly whilst also rubbing in a fair amount of bullcrap to try and push the agenda.

Personally would like to see anyone involved in cheating (all forms) not allowed anywhere near the sport.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:26 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Marlonz wrote:So what are your thoughts on Ariza then Truss?

He wouldn't care less if Mayweather posted a video of himself shooting up on Instagram. His heroes include Lance Armstrong and a bunch of steroid monkey body builders!!

I don't need a journalist to tell me whether to like Armstrong or Mayweather though !!!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:28 pm

Marlon I think Manny's team should make an issue of Ariza !!

I also think Ben Johnson should write an article bemoaning the state of illegal substances in athletics !!

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Post by hazharrison Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:29 pm

Derbymanc wrote:It's a good question to ask Marlon but it's the same as when noone was questoning Manny about Roach's comments 'he used to be given special shakes'

IMO noone wants to ask the question directly for fear of being barred from access for the best boxers of our generation and being shouted down by the major fanboys.

Plus there's enough fans that will bring it up constantly whilst also rubbing in a fair amount of bullcrap to try and push the agenda.

Personally would like to see anyone involved in cheating (all forms) not allowed anywhere near the sport.

Here here.

Stuffing HGH and EPO into yourself in order to run faster than someone is distinctly different to someone illegally building speed, power and endurance that can be used to almost decapitate someone (who may then, theoretically, retire, become depressed, pick up a drugs habit and end up on the scrapheap...ahem).

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Post by Marlonz Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:30 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:
Marlonz wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:Don't think anyone is denying that Mosley had seen better days, Haz, but I don't see how you can deny that, as a performance, Mayweather's showing against Shane clearly outshone Pacquiao's.

The scorecards might have indicated that there was nowt in it (can't remember the specifics on that front without checking) but Mayweather showed the full array of his skills whereas nobody thinks back to the Mosley fight when they talk about top performances by Manny or fights which showcased him at his best. Pacquiao clearly wasn't in the same kind of ruthless mood as he was against Cotto, for instance - Miguel got very defensive and back-foot happy after Pacquiao had beaten the hell out of him for a few rounds but Manny still retained his cutting edge and walked him down. Likewise Mosley lost heart against Mayweather but Floyd still gave him a chasing. Pacquiao just did enough. Mosley-Pacquiao was a dreadful fight and neither guy put on a show.

I found it pretty ridiculous in 2012 when some Mayweather fanatcis were trying to argue that his win over Cotto was shomehow better than Manny's, but similarly it seems odd to me that anyone could watch Floyd-Mosley and Manny-Mosley and argue that Pacquiao's performance or win was superior. Again, leaving out how you felt about Mosley's condition at the time, do you really think Pacquiao looked anything like a great fighter in that fight? Mayweather on the other hand did, in my opinion.

It depends how you look at it though Chris. You could say that Manny, in 2nd gear almost KO'D Shane and had him terrified for the remainder of the fight, whilst still not having to get out of 2nd gear. I agree with you that it was an underwhelming performance from Manny, but it could be interpreted as him not needing to be anything but that in order to get the win.

Don't know if I'm reading too much into it but apparently he was involved in a minor car accident the morning of the fight and was said to be a little shaken up just 6 or 7 hours before the fight. I'm sure there was a news video released the day of the fight reporting this. Still, I agree with you that regardless of that incident, it did seem to mark the start of some mildly disappointing performances from Manny.

Let's not get into this whole second gear crap.............

Hamed wasn't focused against Barrera blah blah..............Duran was partying for Leonard 2 blah blah............

It's redundant garbage where all the fighters you hate are always 100% focussed and prime when they are crap..............and the ones you like have excuses when they are !!.............

Not making excuses for Manny and unlike Duran and Hamed, he did'nt lose. What I was insinuating was that Manny putting on a crappy performance was still enough to hurt, drop and have Mosley running scared for the rest of the fight. Where as Floyd, for all his mastery and "possible career best performance" (at that time) was hurt and almost KO'd himself and did'nt come close to dropping Shane. You might want to take the consideration that I am playing Devils advocate somewhat because I was impressed with Floyd's performance (for the most part) over Shane. Just pointing out the way performances vs common opponents can be interpreted.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:32 pm

hazharrison wrote:
Derbymanc wrote:It's a good question to ask Marlon but it's the same as when noone was questoning Manny about Roach's comments 'he used to be given special shakes'

IMO noone wants to ask the question directly for fear of being barred from access for the best boxers of our generation and being shouted down by the major fanboys.

Plus there's enough fans that will bring it up constantly whilst also rubbing in a fair amount of bullcrap to try and push the agenda.

Personally would like to see anyone involved in cheating (all forms) not allowed anywhere near the sport.

Here here.

Stuffing HGH and EPO into yourself in order to run faster than someone is distinctly different to someone illegally building speed, power and endurance that can be used to almost decapitate someone (who may then, theoretically, retire, become depressed, pick up a drugs habit and end up on the scrapheap...ahem).

Problem is only the fighters you dislike seem to be taking them !!.....

Should doubt that the steroid boom in the 80s would have affected morally-noble sorts like Duran.........

Have no doubts he got down from 190 with just diet and hard work...


Last edited by TRUSSMAN66 on Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:34 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : ..)

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Post by Dipper Brown Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:38 pm

Personally I think they should let them inject all the drugs under the sun. With the current state of boxing being what it is: promoters protecting their fighters 0s, fan boys justifying them by playing amateur promoters rather than fans....maybe a pharmaceutical arms race would be more entertaining.

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Post by Derbymanc Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:40 pm

I'd say it's probably rife in the sport Truss, to be honest the governing bodies don't do enough to really deter it and until there starts to be some really harsh punishments (records wiped, lifetime bans) then it will carry on.

It doesn't mean we should ignore though, especially as it probably happened years ago too. If that were the case the cheating scumbag Armstrong wouldn't have been caught as noone would have spoken out.

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Post by compelling and rich Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:41 pm

i generally just think everybody is juiced anyway these days with the drug testing being as poor as it is. id be suprised if both of these guys havent been on PEDs at some point

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:43 pm

Derbymanc wrote:I'd say it's probably rife in the sport Truss, to be honest the governing bodies don't do enough to really deter it and until there starts to be some really harsh punishments (records wiped, lifetime bans) then it will carry on.

It doesn't mean we should ignore though, especially as it probably happened years ago too. If that were the case the cheating scumbag Armstrong wouldn't have been caught as noone would have spoken out.

Armstrong competed in an era when everybody took them......................and I do admire him and here is why...

For a guy who had cancer all over his body and was given a 30% chance of survival................To come back.......get on a bike and win the biggest hardest race in the sport six times.......

I find amazing............

I don't admire some of us his other personal traits...............

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Post by Marlonz Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:43 pm

Haz, Derby, I take your points. The Heredia association is just taking the p1$$ too! On the other hand, I guess it should be noted that Ariza is currently suing Roach over those comments that he gave Manny a "special drink" so read into that what you will. One thing that is almost certain is that Floyd is using major psychological gamesmanship with the Ariza thing but still, it only serves to reveal his lack of integrity and honesty to me.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:44 pm

Manny has lots of integrity and honesty..............no doubt !!

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Post by Dipper Brown Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:44 pm

To answer the OP, I think the winner will be the best WW in the world and that's enough for me. Don't see enough of the no.1 and no.2 in the division facing each other. That makes this a big fight for me, even the cynics have to admit that.

Don't really go in for all the ATG stuff, personally.

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Post by Marlonz Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:46 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Manny has lots of integrity and honesty..............no doubt !!
But he isn't accusing people of deceit and then contradicting himself majorly with subsequent actions Truss. What Floyd has done with Ariza is wrong on so many levels, the association with Heredia even more so. Remember, this is a guy that wants to "clean up the sport of boxing"...


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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:47 pm

Dipper Brown wrote:To answer the OP, I think the winner will be the best WW in the world and that's enough for me. Don't see enough of the no.1 and no.2 in the division facing each other. That makes this a big fight for me, even the cynics have to admit that.

With all these titles about you aren't going to..

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:48 pm

Marlonz wrote:
TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Manny has lots of integrity and honesty..............no doubt !!
But he isn't accusing people of deceit and then contradicting himself Truss. What Floyd has done with Ariza is wrong on so many levels, the association with Heredia even more so. Remember, this is a guy that wants to "clean up the sport of boxing"...

Were you this concerned when Ariza was helping Manny ???

Mayweathher is full of S**t.................Most fighters are..

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Post by Dipper Brown Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:52 pm

Armstrong was a cheat in a sea of cheats. What he did to overcome cancer and dominate the sport is incredible, drugs or no drugs those cyclists demonstrate incredible feats of human endurance (even though the sport is mind numbingly boring).

Having said that, the absolute abuse of power in covering his tracks and intimidating his accusers to the point their careers were ruined is disgusting. The guy is clearly a sociopath and has shown nothing resembling remorse. The guy's a scumbag! The doping is forgivable, the abuse of power. No chance.

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Post by Marlonz Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:52 pm

No, because he only came to prominence when Roach appointed him for Manny back in '08. But you have to remember that Floyd was concerned when Ariza was helping Manny, yet then appoints him after that!!!?? That doesn't make sense Truss..

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Post by Derbymanc Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:53 pm

I wasn't knocking you for admiring Armstrong Truss, Whilst I don't agree I can understand it too and have no problems with it at all. Just glad he got caught and cycling seems to be cleaning itself up.

Boxing will take a lot of people and organisations to sit and agree on testing etc etc etc to get it done and I don't think it's possible at this time.

To the OP, I think a lot of people have Manny/May where they want in their lists and only a completely dominating performance will change that. Other than that the fanboys will be out in force with a list of excuses for their favourite fighter getting beat.

I've still not bought into the hype and think the fights happening far too late but I suppose, at least it's happening.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:55 pm

Dipper Brown wrote:Armstrong was a cheat in a sea of cheats. What he did to overcome cancer and dominate the sport is incredible, drugs or no drugs those cyclists demonstrate incredible feats of human endurance (even though the sport is mind numbingly boring).

Having said that, the absolute abuse of power in covering his tracks and intimidating his accusers to the point their careers were ruined is disgusting. The guy is clearly a sociopath and has shown nothing resembling remorse. The guy's a scumbag! The doping is forgivable, the abuse of power. No chance.

He took cheating to a new professional level............

If you're going to cheat..................Smart move is to make sure you don't get caught...............

Either cover up your tracks................Or spend plenty of time back home If you live in a third world Country like Zimbabwe or maybe somewhere like the Philippines ...

As for the bullying..............If I was caught screwing a chick in the back of my car and a colleague was on his way to tell my Wife..........I'd explain to him that it wouldn't be a good idea !!............


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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 13 Apr 2015, 3:57 pm

Knowing a murderer doesn't make you a murderer just like working with Ariza doesn't necessarily make you a drug cheat. Before he worked with Mayweather everyone gave Pacman the benefit of the doubt, now the tables have reversed in order to throw allegations at Mayweather.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 4:01 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Knowing a murderer doesn't make you a murderer just like working with Ariza doesn't necessarily make you a drug cheat. Before he worked with Mayweather everyone gave Pacman the benefit of the doubt, now the tables have reversed in order to throw allegations at Mayweather.

Perhaps If mayweather was fighting someone else...It would be more of an issue..


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Post by Marco_Marky - Stuffington Mon 13 Apr 2015, 4:10 pm

The size difference between Floyd and Manny is vast too. I hadn't appreciated just how much bigger Floyd is until I seen the square off.

He looks a totally different man since his SF days. Totally different.

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Post by TopHat24/7 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 4:20 pm

Who is Lance Armstrong? Wasn't sure so did a quick Google search and couldn't find any record of him winning anything.....? Headscratch


Re the OP: I don't have Manny ahead of Floyd either now or ATG and probably never will.  A win on May 2nd would close the gap though.

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Post by Marlonz Mon 13 Apr 2015, 4:32 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:Knowing a murderer doesn't make you a murderer just like working with Ariza doesn't necessarily make you a drug cheat. Before he worked with Mayweather everyone gave Pacman the benefit of the doubt, now the tables have reversed in order to throw allegations at Mayweather.

Yes, but it's the principle Hammersmith. If you strongly accuse someone of being dishonest and a cheat for the best part of 5 years, only to then say "Oh, now I want to work with you!", you deserve all the ridicule you get because you set yourself up for it. Floyd is trying to have it both ways and largely getting it.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 4:34 pm

Marlonz wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Knowing a murderer doesn't make you a murderer just like working with Ariza doesn't necessarily make you a drug cheat. Before he worked with Mayweather everyone gave Pacman the benefit of the doubt, now the tables have reversed in order to throw allegations at Mayweather.

Yes, but it's the principle Hammersmith.  If you strongly accuse someone of being dishonest and a cheat for the best part of 5 years, only to then say "Oh, now I want to work with you!", you deserve all the ridicule you get because you set yourself up for it. Floyd is trying to have it both ways and largely getting it.

Most people are hypocrites.............

You want Manny to win good luck to you...

I don't...

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Post by Marlonz Mon 13 Apr 2015, 5:18 pm

True, but there are levels of hypocrisy and to take the moral high ground as Mayweather does whilst practicing blatant hypocrisy warrants criticism in the same way as he feels free to criticize whoever he pleases, whenever he pleases.

I just want a convincing victory with no controversy. I'm glad you allow others the right to back a contrary fighter to the one you back Truss. That's the way it should be.

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Post by Hammersmith harrier Mon 13 Apr 2015, 7:20 pm

Marlonz wrote:
Hammersmith harrier wrote:Knowing a murderer doesn't make you a murderer just like working with Ariza doesn't necessarily make you a drug cheat. Before he worked with Mayweather everyone gave Pacman the benefit of the doubt, now the tables have reversed in order to throw allegations at Mayweather.

Yes, but it's the principle Hammersmith.  If you strongly accuse someone of being dishonest and a cheat for the best part of 5 years, only to then say "Oh, now I want to work with you!", you deserve all the ridicule you get because you set yourself up for it. Floyd is trying to have it both ways and largely getting it.

I don't tend to bother commenting on blind speculation which all of this and leave it to the amateur physiologists who seem to think reading an article or two on doping sport makes them an expert.

I have my own trepidation on the subject but when it's fuelled by circumstantial evidence, visual representations and no actual concrete proof what's the point commenting on it.

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Post by theanimal316 Mon 13 Apr 2015, 7:54 pm

Cheers for your opinions. I don't have half the historical knowledge that the posters here so its good to hear how you guys assess hoe this result can impact their respective legacies.

Regarding the fight,the closer I get I am favouring Manny to blast Floyd out. I find it fascinating that Floyd is letting Manny wear the punchers gloves- is he really confident his defense can remain water tight or does he not fear the power? Time will tell.

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Post by AdamT Mon 13 Apr 2015, 8:04 pm

Why has Manny looked much smaller and weaker, why does Floyd look bigger.

That old protein is some stuff. Pacquiao clearly not having enough

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Post by .aveyard2.0 Thu 16 Apr 2015, 9:49 pm

I think this fight is the completion of both fighters careers. They fought all the names of their generation and the biggest differentiator is Floyd didn't lose. Both had some close calls granted. I fully expect Floyd to win at least 8 of the rounds on a way to a decision but as the fight gets nearer I get more optimistic of an absolute masterclass. Either way both are truly great fighters and would hold their own with anyone in an around their weight throughout history
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