Regional A teams

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It looks like the superclubs have now hijacked the B&I Cup for themselves now that the LV is over.

Richard Holland is about as slimy as you get. Look at the email he sent. What a tool.

I thought they did move there (the Crusaders to Rodney Parade). That was an assumption on my part after attending that game and assuming they would make it their home. But they didn't, they went up north didn't they? Either way Steffan it seems you were wrong in stating they never played a game there. I attended the Crusaders game, and never again.

Stating Blues should change their kit/name, etc is fair enough. But as pointed out the directors board are adamant all that will be staying. But if they were to do that I can't see it making a huge difference. What they're doing now (investing in premiership feeder clubs) is probably the thing that will make a difference in the long-run. If Pontypridd don't want to support Blues then fair enough, stop taking the academy players and money and then writing ridiculous blogs.

GavinDragon wrote:surely it is not beyong the realms of possibility. Yes there is some World Rugby regulation that PhillBB bangs on about but surely if the RFU were willing, Ponty paid their way and obviously started at an appropriate level why not?

I'd be happy to start at the bottom of the English pyramid and hopefully work our way up possibly to the English Championship

Steffan wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:I honestly think Ponty should try and join the English pyramid, it is the only way they will realise their potential

I would love that to happen. Now you're talking

Good luck with that without your Blues academy players . You're good enough to win the premiership on your own, that's a fair call I think. And well done, you could probably do that again without the Blues players. But if you think you can join the English league, say their championship then you're living in dreamland. You can't even win the swalec cup but think you'd be on a level playing field in a top flight league? Dream on.

The Saint wrote:I thought they did move there (the Crusaders to Rodney Parade). That was an assumption on my part after attending that game and assuming they would make it their home

A wrong assumption similar to mine but not to worry

The Saint wrote:Stating Blues should change their kit/name, etc is fair enough

I actually couldn't care less about Cardiff Blues kit and name. The damage is done as far as I am concerned

The Saint wrote:If Pontypridd don't want to support Blues then fair enough, stop taking the academy players and money and then writing ridiculous blogs

The blogs can be a bit annoying I understand that but as far as I am aware Ponty have to accept Blues contracted players and money as part of the deal of being in the Premiership so it's not really Ponty's decision to say 'No Blues players here sorry'

Well shut up and get with the programme then. All of you will likely be a lot happier.

GavinDragon wrote:and unfortunately the ones with the money will dictate that there will always be cardiff in the name and always play in cardiff colours

The Blues haven't played in proper Cardiff club colours for years mun ie no black. 2007-ish was the last time IIRC.

Steffan wrote:Cardiff is a footballing city anyway. The joke attendances at the Cardiff City Stadium compared to Cardiff City football team says it all

The thinking was that your lot would attend CCS. In the hundreds and thousands.
Therefore it's your fault that attendances were rubbish.

Old article, but relevant I spose....

"Welsh Rugby Partnership Strengthens As Premiership Clubs Join Pro Rugby Wales

.....Chris Clarke said: “The Premiership Clubs were unanimous in their support of closer links with Pro Rugby Wales and feel this opportunity acknowledges the contribution the Premiership brings to the development of past, present and future professional rugby players.

“We look forward to contributing to the discussion on the continual changing game of Professional rugby in Wales.”

PRO RUGBY IN WALES; key facts

4 Professional Rugby Sides in top two levels of European Competition
4 Semi Professional Sides in Domestic League and B&I Cup"

http://prorugbywales.com/welsh-rugby-partnership-strengthens-premiership-clubs-join-pro-rugby-wales/

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:Cardiff is a footballing city anyway. The joke attendances at the Cardiff City Stadium compared to Cardiff City football team says it all

The thinking was that your lot would attend CCS. In the hundreds and thousands.  
Therefore it's your fault that attendances were rubbish.  

I went to one game at CCS it was a free ticket for a New Years Eve clash against Neath/Swansea so you can't blame me

I cheered on the Ospreys just to annoy the 'Kaaaaaaaaaaidiff' lot but overall it was a pretty sombre affair despite being a "major Welsh derby"

GavinDragon wrote:While I wont be quite so vociferous as Grif, what I will say is that I can see and understand that you probably were invested as a fan in Cardiff RFC way before regionalism, further more Cardiff paid their way to be a standalone entity and so feel that they should exist as a club only,

but not every fan of the regions feels the same way as you do. I doubt I will ever convince you to change your mind and vice versa

I understand that. I also understand why some, like Steff don't support "their region" since he knows the Blues are Cardiff firsts in drag. That's the truth i'm afraid. Cardiff run the show whether anyone likes it or not. BTW I also understand why some supporters of Cardiff have walked away too.
All I keep banging on about mostly is let's have honesty for once or the confusion and bickering will go on forever.

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:Cardiff is a footballing city anyway. The joke attendances at the Cardiff City Stadium compared to Cardiff City football team says it all

The thinking was that your lot would attend CCS. In the hundreds and thousands.  
Therefore it's your fault that attendances were rubbish.  

I went to one game at CCS it was a free ticket for a New Years Eve clash against Neath/Swansea so you can't blame me  

I cheered on the Ospreys just to annoy the 'Kaaaaaaaaaaidiff' lot but overall it was a pretty sombre affair despite being a "major Welsh derby"

No freebies ever at CCS mun. You must be mistaken.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:Cardiff is a footballing city anyway. The joke attendances at the Cardiff City Stadium compared to Cardiff City football team says it all

The thinking was that your lot would attend CCS. In the hundreds and thousands.  
Therefore it's your fault that attendances were rubbish.  

I went to one game at CCS it was a free ticket for a New Years Eve clash against Neath/Swansea so you can't blame me  

I cheered on the Ospreys just to annoy the 'Kaaaaaaaaaaidiff' lot but overall it was a pretty sombre affair despite being a "major Welsh derby"

No freebies ever at CCS mun. You must be mistaken.

Think I knew more people who went on freebies when Cardiff Blues were playing at CCS than people who were actually paying to watch it be honest

Cardiff Dave wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:While I wont be quite so vociferous as Grif, what I will say is that I can see and understand that you probably were invested as a fan in Cardiff RFC way before regionalism, further more Cardiff paid their way to be a standalone entity and so feel that they should exist as a club only,

but not every fan of the regions feels the same way as you do. I doubt I will ever convince you to change your mind and vice versa

I understand that. I also understand why some, like Steff don't support "their region" since he knows the Blues are Cardiff firsts in drag. That's the truth i'm afraid. Cardiff run the show whether anyone likes it or not. BTW I also understand why some supporters of Cardiff have walked away too.
All I keep banging on about mostly is let's have honesty for once or the confusion and bickering will go on forever.

But Cardiff SHOULD be running the show. There should be no debating that. They are the nominated pro team in that geographical area, just as the Dragons are running the show in Gwent, etc. All other teams feed up to the nominated pro team. That's the regional rugby concept that the WRU pushed through. I think the big problem comes with Pontypridd not wanting accepting their place in the hierarchy. They want to be at the top table, not feeding up as a feeder club. An understanble grievance of course. And I do sympathise. But their beef should be with the WRU, not with the Blues who did not take their position by force. Rather, they were given it by the governing body (yes there was a payment, but in that regard Ponty could have paid more if they really wanted to).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:One of those teams has tried to build bridges with the other

As long as you still have fans who still see the Blues as Cardiff RFC then NO bridges will ever be built.

No, once the majority see it as the Blues then the bridges will be built.

Lloyd, Jeff and Beau?

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Steffan wrote:Cardiff is a footballing city anyway. The joke attendances at the Cardiff City Stadium compared to Cardiff City football team says it all

The thinking was that your lot would attend CCS. In the hundreds and thousands.  
Therefore it's your fault that attendances were rubbish.  

I went to one game at CCS it was a free ticket for a New Years Eve clash against Neath/Swansea so you can't blame me  

I cheered on the Ospreys just to annoy the 'Kaaaaaaaaaaidiff' lot but overall it was a pretty sombre affair despite being a "major Welsh derby"

No freebies ever at CCS mun. You must be mistaken.

Think I knew more people who went on freebies when Cardiff Blues were playing at CCS than people who were actually paying to watch it be honest

Shush mun. Keep it to yourself.

Griff wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:While I wont be quite so vociferous as Grif, what I will say is that I can see and understand that you probably were invested as a fan in Cardiff RFC way before regionalism, further more Cardiff paid their way to be a standalone entity and so feel that they should exist as a club only,

but not every fan of the regions feels the same way as you do. I doubt I will ever convince you to change your mind and vice versa

I understand that. I also understand why some, like Steff don't support "their region" since he knows the Blues are Cardiff firsts in drag. That's the truth i'm afraid. Cardiff run the show whether anyone likes it or not. BTW I also understand why some supporters of Cardiff have walked away too.
All I keep banging on about mostly is let's have honesty for once or the confusion and bickering will go on forever.

But Cardiff SHOULD be running the show. There should be no debating that. They are the nominated pro team in that geographical area, just as the Dragons are running the show in Gwent, etc. All other teams feed up to the nominated pro team. That's the regional rugby concept that the WRU pushed through.  I think the big problem comes with Pontypridd not wanting accepting their place in the hierarchy. They want to be at the top table, not feeding up as a feeder club. An understanble grievance of course. And I do sympathise. But their beef should be with the WRU, not with the Blues who did not take their position by force. Rather, they were given it by the governing body (yes there was a payment, but in that regard Ponty could have paid more if they really wanted to).

Just saying, but maybe you should check up on that.

Just going on what I have read on here, which is not good form from me I appreciate. If there was no payment that that adds even more weight to my argument that Ponty grievances should not be at the Blues but should be towards the WRU. Ponty can't claim that they were out bid.

For me Cardiff is a no brainer for a regional team. Capital city - check; largest population area in wales by some margin - check; good transport links - check; existing stadia - check; someone willing to supplement/bank roll it - check; existing fan base - check. Why wouldn't you base a regional team there?!

Cardiff Dave wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:While I wont be quite so vociferous as Grif, what I will say is that I can see and understand that you probably were invested as a fan in Cardiff RFC way before regionalism, further more Cardiff paid their way to be a standalone entity and so feel that they should exist as a club only,

but not every fan of the regions feels the same way as you do. I doubt I will ever convince you to change your mind and vice versa

I understand that. I also understand why some, like Steff don't support "their region" since he knows the Blues are Cardiff firsts in drag. That's the truth i'm afraid. Cardiff run the show whether anyone likes it or not. BTW I also understand why some supporters of Cardiff have walked away too.
All I keep banging on about mostly is let's have honesty for once or the confusion and bickering will go on forever.

Yea fair enough there should be honesty and acceptance that Cardiff and Newport RFC's run the show in their regions and that there would be no pro rugby in these regions without those clubs providing the necessary cash and infrastructure.

But just because that should happen doesn't mean that fans of the regional concept should stop pushing both the Blues and Dragons to be more regional in their approach and to appeal to those fans beyond their traditional fan base (granted with the Blues it is difficult and tbh I now think Ponty are not worth the effort). This should continue while the regional concept is still in play.

However should this change and the WRU/PRW officially come out and say it is reverting to clubs then fair game for Cardiff/Newport to do whatever they like. But as I have said previously any change to such a system must by in conjunction with rolling franchises to give other clubs/regions/entities in Wales the opportunity to be at the top table.

GavinDragon wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:While I wont be quite so vociferous as Grif, what I will say is that I can see and understand that you probably were invested as a fan in Cardiff RFC way before regionalism, further more Cardiff paid their way to be a standalone entity and so feel that they should exist as a club only,

but not every fan of the regions feels the same way as you do. I doubt I will ever convince you to change your mind and vice versa

I understand that. I also understand why some, like Steff don't support "their region" since he knows the Blues are Cardiff firsts in drag. That's the truth i'm afraid. Cardiff run the show whether anyone likes it or not. BTW I also understand why some supporters of Cardiff have walked away too.
All I keep banging on about mostly is let's have honesty for once or the confusion and bickering will go on forever.

Yea fair enough there should be honesty and acceptance that Cardiff and Newport RFC's run the show in their regions and that there would be no pro rugby in these regions without those clubs providing the necessary cash and infrastructure.

But just because that should happen doesn't mean that fans of the regional concept should stop pushing both the Blues and Dragons to be more regional in their approach and to appeal to those fans beyond their traditional fan base (granted with the Blues it is difficult and tbh I now think Ponty are not worth the effort). This should continue while the regional concept is still in play.

However should this change and the WRU/PRW officially come out and say it is reverting to clubs then fair game for Cardiff/Newport to do whatever they like. But as I have said previously any change to such a system must by in conjunction with rolling franchises to give other clubs/regions/entities in Wales the opportunity to be at the top table.

Pretending hasn't worked and it's led to constant bickering. Made up regional boundaries are a joke. Newport and Cardiff should be cashing in on their history and not denying the bleeding obvious.

leave cardiff aside for the moment but what history have Newport RFC got since the game went officially pro?

A couple of good seasons which culminated in a cup win with a large number of foreign imports paid for by Tony Brown

Yes I appreciate we beat the AB's in 63 and probably had good spells (and players) throughout history but in an amateur era when the need to pay players (officially) wasn't there did it really matter whether there were 2k at the stand or 20k?

It now needs to maximise its potential fan base and I dont see how snubbing thousands of rugby mad fans north of Cwmbran is going to help achieve that commercial aim

How exactly are the Dragons (not Newport) 'snubbing' these fans?

They aren't and I wasnt suggesting that, my point was made in reference to those who want to return to club branding.

Returning to just Newport as some suggest would certainly snub them.

And while the Dragons are not snubbing fans they could do more IMO, however I appreciate that it is difficult balance

We should have a generation of fans that have grown up just watching the regions, soon as the old rose tinted glory days lot are put out to pasture the better in my opinion, they make us all look like village idiots with their parochialism.

munkian wrote:We should have a generation of fans that have grown up just watching the regions, soon as the old rose tinted glory days lot are put out to pasture the better in my opinion, they make us all look like village idiots with their parochialism.

Munkian,

I have said many times before that its a generation issue with lots of old timers to set in their ways. The young kids will want to see the stars of today playing and for that they will have to go to a Region.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

munkian wrote:We should have a generation of fans that have grown up just watching the regions, soon as the old rose tinted glory days lot are put out to pasture the better in my opinion, they make us all look like village idiots with their parochialism.

Munkian,

I have said many times before that its a generation issue with lots of old timers to set in their ways.  The young kids will want to see the stars of today playing and for that they will have to go to a Region.

The other thing, that sometimes the older club generation don't remember, is that people used to support their nearest 'big team' town as that was how they used to see the star players. Well either that or glory support the 'best' team. Now the kids will support the region based nearest them, or the most successful one, for exactly the same reasons. Given time, that then becomes the norm that folks from Merthyr support the Blues, or kids from Monmouth support the Dragons etc, or the glory supporters follow the Scarlets (joke).

GavinDragon wrote:They aren't and I wasnt suggesting that, my point was made in reference to those who want to return to club branding.

Returning to just Newport as some suggest would certainly snub them.

And while the Dragons are not snubbing fans they could do more IMO, however I appreciate that it is difficult balance

Wrong end of the stick, sorry. I certainly wouldn't want to see the Dragons become just Newport. That's not who I support. I've never had a season ticket for Newport but next season will be my fifth as a season ticket holder for the Dragons.

I've said before, it's the Gwent in the name I'm proud of, not the Newport.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:They aren't and I wasnt suggesting that, my point was made in reference to those who want to return to club branding.

Returning to just Newport as some suggest would certainly snub them.

And while the Dragons are not snubbing fans they could do more IMO, however I appreciate that it is difficult balance

Wrong end of the stick, sorry. I certainly wouldn't want to see the Dragons become just Newport. That's not who I support. I've never had a season ticket for Newport but next season will be my fifth as a season ticket holder for the Dragons.

I've said before, it's the Gwent in the name I'm proud of, not the Newport.

+1

Then why not drop Newport altogether and just call the team Gwent Dragons ?

Because as has been discussed/debated/argued at length there would be no NGD without the financial backing and assets of Newport RFC and its owners and while that is the case it will never change

GavinDragon wrote:Because as has been discussed/debated/argued at length there would be no NGD without the financial backing and assets of Newport RFC and its owners and while that is the case it will never change

well if that is the case, then how can they call themselves a region ? They might represent the whole of Gwent, but why would an Ebbw Vales supporter suddenly switch alliances from Ebbw to Newport ?

LordDowlais wrote:Then why not drop Newport altogether and just call the team Gwent DragonsSeople refuse to move on.

I'd be fine with us (Blues) dropping Cardiff. I understand it would create problems in terms of us and the Blues of Aukland. But some people refuse to let go. But in 10 years when they're no longer with us it might happen.
(Hate using mobile)

Look guys, I am just playing devils advocate in all this, I do actually go and pay money to watch the regions, I could not care less if they are called Cardiff or Newport, but what I am trying to point out is, that it should be a two way street, you cannot expect people to just switch alliances to another team, especially one they have been rivals with for years, if Newport and Cardiff want to be a region, then they should be the bigger man for a use of the phrase and drop the old club names from their title, but as has been said on here originally, do they honestly see themselves as anything other than Cardiff RFC and Newport RFC ? You must look at things from the non regional fans perspective as well as your own.

I completely agree with you LD

I completely agree with you LD

LordDowlais wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Because as has been discussed/debated/argued at length there would be no NGD without the financial backing and assets of Newport RFC and its owners and while that is the case it will never change

well if that is the case, then how can they call themselves a region ? They might represent the whole of Gwent, but why would an Ebbw Vales supporter suddenly switch alliances from Ebbw to Newport ?

They don't have to switch allegiances. It's perfectly possible to support your club and also your regional side. It's not either or. Also, the Dragons aren't Newport.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not either or.

That all depends on which side you look at it from. Also, most people do not have the time or money to go and watch two sides per week.

You can support a team without watching all their games. Plenty of people have a (football) Premiership team that they don't go and watch.

which is why i would like to see the WP moved to summer...seriously missing rugby at the moment!

LordDowlais wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Because as has been discussed/debated/argued at length there would be no NGD without the financial backing and assets of Newport RFC and its owners and while that is the case it will never change

well if that is the case, then how can they call themselves a region ? They might represent the whole of Gwent, but why would an Ebbw Vales supporter suddenly switch alliances from Ebbw to Newport ?

Why can't they support Ebbw AND the Dragons ? One is a premiership club, one is a Pro 12 club...

I haven't heard 'Newport' shouted by our fans for around 5 years.

And I agree with Luckless, I'm a Newport boy but have never supported Newport RFC - I support the Dragons

Dowlais - People's financial situations are hardly the concern of the Dragons - if they can only afford to go see Ebbw what are they supposed to do ? Surely then the fans could see Ebw at home one week then Dragons at home the next ?

LordDowlais wrote:Look guys, I am just playing devils advocate in all this, I do actually go and pay money to watch the regions, I could not care less if they are called Cardiff or Newport, but what I am trying to point out is, that it should be a two way street, you cannot expect people to just switch alliances to another team, especially one they have been rivals with for years, if Newport and Cardiff want to be a region, then they should be the bigger man for a use of the phrase and drop the old club names from their title, but as has been said on here originally, do they honestly see themselves as anything other than Cardiff RFC and Newport RFC ? You must look at things from the non regional fans perspective as well as your own.

Does it really matter what the board of directors and other suits see them as? If the players see themselves as representatives of a regional population, and the fans see them as that too then who cares what the money men think.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Look guys, I am just playing devils advocate in all this, I do actually go and pay money to watch the regions, I could not care less if they are called Cardiff or Newport, but what I am trying to point out is, that it should be a two way street, you cannot expect people to just switch alliances to another team, especially one they have been rivals with for years, if Newport and Cardiff want to be a region, then they should be the bigger man for a use of the phrase and drop the old club names from their title, but as has been said on here originally, do they honestly see themselves as anything other than Cardiff RFC and Newport RFC ? You must look at things from the non regional fans perspective as well as your own.

Does it really matter what the board of directors and other suits see them as?  If the players see themselves as representatives of a regional population, and the fans see them as that too then who cares what the money men think.

This.

So you lot do not think it should be a two way street then ?

Dragons still play in Newport, they are called Newport Gwent Dragons, they still play in the Newport RFC colours (Black and Gold) even though it is a different design, yet people from outside of Newport are supposed to see these as their region. It is the same with the Cardiff Blues, they still play in Cardiff, they still use the same colours as Cardiff RFC, but people are supposed to see them as their region.

Funny thing is, the two sides that are doing the least as regards to dropping town/city names, are the two worst Welsh sides in the league, funny that isn't it ?

If the "directors and other suits" want to see themselves as Cardiff RFC and Newport RFC then just come out and say it, it is obvious to everybody else that this is the case, so they should stop pretending.

LordDowlais wrote:So you lot do not think it should be a two way street then ?

Dragons still play in Newport, they are called Newport Gwent Dragons, they still play in the Newport RFC colours (Black and Gold) even though it is a different design, yet people from outside of Newport are supposed to see these as their region. It is the same with the Cardiff Blues, they still play in Cardiff, they still use the same colours as Cardiff RFC, but people are supposed to see them as their region.

Funny thing is, the two sides that are doing the least as regards to dropping town/city names, are the two worst Welsh sides in the league, funny that isn't it ?

If the "directors and other suits" want to see themselves as Cardiff RFC and Newport RFC then just come out and say it, it is obvious to everybody else that this is the case, so they should stop pretending.

they can't as now there are fans, many of whom comment on these boards, support the Dragons and not NRFC.

And of course the maj on here think it should be a two way street. I for one would love to see us called the Gwent Dragons or if we are compromising just Dragons, but as stated above it is not so simple

GavinDragon wrote:but as stated above it is not so simple

Yes, I know, and I appreciate how delicate the situation is, but at the same time, instead of bemoaning the disenfranchised fan, try and understand where they are coming from, I know some of them get tiresome, Pontypridd, cough, cough, but understanding is part of the solution, so I just wish that people who have a go for people moaning about the "super clubs" try and see where they are coming from first.

LD if you read any of my posts on here you would see that I completely empathise with all fans who lost the ability to watch professional rugby on their doorstep through no fault of there own.

In many public forums I constantly push the regional concept and my own region to do more to embrace it.

I think this thread shows how complicated the varying degrees of opinion on branding are within the dragons fan base:

http://draggedup.co.uk/chat/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6004

Brilliant. Calling ourselves just Dragons is the key to success. Have a day off mun.

Risca Rev wrote:Brilliant. Calling ourselves just Dragons is the key to success. Have a day off mun.

It's a start.

He's even said that rubbish before. LD surely you get tired of regurgitating the same drivel every day? Forget a day off, take a sabbatical.

The Saint wrote:He's even said that rubbish before. LD surely you get tired of regurgitating the same drivel every day? Forget a day off, take a sabbatical.

wayhay, the monkey has come to insult me as well now, I am enjoying you and your organ grinder on here, what a team the pair of you make, following me around threads and accusing me of saying things I have not said, you two are adorable.

LordDowlais wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:Because as has been discussed/debated/argued at length there would be no NGD without the financial backing and assets of Newport RFC and its owners and while that is the case it will never change

well if that is the case, then how can they call themselves a region ? They might represent the whole of Gwent, but why would an Ebbw Vales supporter suddenly switch alliances from Ebbw to Newport ?

Because they wouldn't be switching allegiances from Ebbw to Newport, they would be and a decent percentage now do support Ebbw as their club side and then the Dragons as their Region.

I wouldn't go to Dave to watch Newport RFC unless they were playing Ebbw but I do go to support my Region which I don't see as Newport.