Montreal Masters

First topic message reminder :

Started yesterday. Who's going to win it then?

Federer not playing. I voted for Djokovic.

Order of play here. Kyrgios v Verdasco looks interesting.

http://www.couperogers.com/en/schedules-and-results/order-of-play/

Yep not bad. At least some more match play on the HCs. I really hope Rafa learns something from the defeat today. He really needs to serve well and plays aggressive tennis from the get go and not wait till he's trailing to do so. He should know that power tennis is the way to go these days and he couldn't afford to start slow. He has to fight fire with fire, whether he likes to play power tennis or not. Of course Kei is more than just power tennis, taking the ball early and constructing the points well. It reminded me of young Rafa of 2003/2004 when Rafa was much more aggressive and hitting with power and depth and yet constructing points well. The current Rafa is more defensive, ever since his success on clay, with some exceptions in 2008/2010/2013.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Yep not bad.  At least some more match play on the HCs.  I really hope Rafa learns something from the defeat today.  He really needs to serve well and plays aggressive tennis from the get go and not wait till he's trailing to do so.  He should know that power tennis is the way to go these days and he couldn't afford to start slow.  He has to fight fire with fire, whether he likes to play power tennis or not. Of course Kei is more than just power tennis, taking the ball early and constructing the points well.  It reminded me of young Rafa of 2003/2004 when Rafa was much more aggressive and hitting with power and depth and yet constructing points well.  The current Rafa is more defensive, ever since his success on clay, with some exceptions in 2008/2010/2013.

I admire your optimism BLB but I think you are whistling down the wind. The only thing I feel about Rafa these days is that of enormous sadness. Im hearing that he now has a shoulder injury presumably why he is not serving well.
There seemingly is no end to his woes and I am not of the belief that they can be overcome with any degree of permanency .. its not about me being pessimistic Its about facing facts and I don't think the Rafa we knew will return.
I hope he does not continue to bury his head in the sand and be satisfied  to feed off the crumbs that the big boys leave on their plate.. he is worthy of more than that.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Yep not bad.  At least some more match play on the HCs.  I really hope Rafa learns something from the defeat today.  He really needs to serve well and plays aggressive tennis from the get go and not wait till he's trailing to do so.  He should know that power tennis is the way to go these days and he couldn't afford to start slow.  He has to fight fire with fire, whether he likes to play power tennis or not. Of course Kei is more than just power tennis, taking the ball early and constructing the points well.  It reminded me of young Rafa of 2003/2004 when Rafa was much more aggressive and hitting with power and depth and yet constructing points well.  The current Rafa is more defensive, ever since his success on clay, with some exceptions in 2008/2010/2013.

I admire your optimism BLB but I think you are whistling down the wind. The only thing I feel about Rafa these days is that of enormous sadness. Im hearing that he now has a shoulder injury presumably why he is not serving well.
There seemingly is no end to his woes and I am not of the belief that they can be overcome with any degree of permanency .. its not about me being pessimistic Its about facing facts and I don't think the Rafa we knew will return.
I hope he does not continue to bury his head in the sand and be satisfied  to feed off the crumbs that the big boys leave on their plate.. he is worthy of more than that.

Couldn't agree more. It was pathetically sad watching a once great all hustling / conquering great, struggle to throw a punch. Nishikori played well (I still laugh at those who mocked my good self when I stated he'd probably be the best of his peers ) but who decent player wouldn't when he's receiving those terribly feeble half court balls

The 'pep' has gone. I see no logic for it coming back. Anyone comparing to Murray last year, needs to remember that Andy wasn't getting creamed every time he played a top player who he normally beat

Nah, I'm not being optimistic. What I'm saying, I'm being realistic, and yes Rafa needs to be realistic too. Like I said he needs to fight fire with fire, something he's capable of doing yet unwilling to do.

He commented before, that he felt tennis is moving the direction of power tennis where big serving and hitting and winning points asap is the norm among the younger gen these days, so he already realizes the trend but it seems he's unwilling to adapt to the change. From what I've seen in his matches, he hasn't done anything to counter the power game, still playing the more defensive game from well behind the baseline. It's only when he takes things into his own hands and not allowing his opponent to dictate that he can have his successes but many times he's not doing that towards his more aggressive opponents.

He said his shoulder is fine now, maybe he's not going all out with his serve as he has to think about the coming USO. Also, he may serve poorly because he's wary of Kei's good ROS. I do feel he should move into the court more often and not rally too much, he's winning many points at the net and I noticed that these days, he has been losing more points in the longer rallies, that's more reasons for him to shorten points and plays more inside the court.

Of course Murray was creamed in 2014, by Dimi at Wimbledon, by Cilic at Rotterdam, and some others.

summerblues wrote:

TRuffin wrote:I'm still trying to figure out how six in the poll thought current nadal is capable of going through 3 top 5 players on a hard court to win the title (even if it's a hard court that suits him).  

Yeah, it was always going to be hard to beat Kei-Andy-Novak back-to-back-to-back.  Kei won quite easily, and the score could perhaps have been even more one-sided in the second set.

Sentiment, I voted for him but didnt think hes playing well enough to get past a top hc player. Its just boring to vote for Novak every time.

^ Also, thinking that Kei may be tired after winning Washington, Murray not playing well at Washington so who knows how he'll fare at Montreal? Novak? He's not playing well at USO series since 2012 so who knows? He almost lost to Gulbis of all people, who only managed five main tour wins this season.

Sadly me, the stalwart supporter of Rafa, cannot abide watching him play these days.. much like a Mother watching her toddler trying to take its first steps..he gets into a rhythm, staggers and falls. No consistency, seemingly satisfied with a win however minor.
This is not "'THE 'BEAST OF MANACOR'  "The Bull" he is more like a rabbit trying to cross a busy road.. sometimes he makes it to the other side
He owes it to himself to change his game and his coach  or quit in my view

GIVE AGASSI A CALL RAFA

Hes had that shoulder injury a while, the Kei result about right, his serve and bh not good enough right now to beat a quality hc player, good enough for the WTF though.

Come on Haddie, we have to adjust our expectations, just like Fed fans adjusting theirs after 2010. Its Novak's time now and if Rafa could 'steal' one more slam going forward, we should be happy. Rafa is going to be 30 next year and I wont be surprised he will quit after next year and gets married and settles down in 2017.

He's not going to win forever, and maybe he has now reached his limit. I wont be surprised that Novak may now move ahead of Fedal in his achievements, given that Fed is old and Rafa declining and no one else could provide a good enough rivalry vs Novak.

Novak's prize money is fast growing; Masters and WTF titles too. His week at no.1 looks like is going to continue well into the future. Whats left is the number of slam counts and with Fedal gone from troubling Novak at the slams, its more than likely hes going to win some more and may catch up with Fed.

Trouble is he gets over one injury then its followed by another
How tiresome is that for him, and how confidence sapping it must be.
He is not the bionic man and at some point he has to realise that.

I mean hes old I dont think hell ever be injury free anymore, people play down just how bad it is I think.

Agassis a good shout, hes gonna have to compensate for this by being more aggressive, almost recklessly so like Andre had to, he cant do that this season though, just needs to keep his ranking.

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Come on Haddie, we have to adjust our expectations, just like Fed fans adjusting theirs after 2010. Its Novak's time now and if Rafa could 'steal' one more slam going forward, we should be happy.  Rafa is going to be 30 next year and I wont be surprised he will quit after next year and gets married and settles down in 2017.

He's not going to win forever, and maybe he has now reached his limit. I wont be surprised that Novak may now move ahead of Fedal in his achievements, given that Fed is old and Rafa declining and no one else could provide a good enough rivalry vs Novak.

Novak's prize money is fast growing; Masters and WTF titles too.  His week at no.1 looks like is going to continue well into the future. Whats left is the number of slam counts and with Fedal gone from troubling Novak at the slams, its more than likely hes going to win some more and may catch up with Fed.

I know what you are saying BLB but if he is to survive, if not excel, he still has to make some changes.. the sport is moving on and he has not kept up. Federer has survived because he made some necessary changes, got a bloody good coach in Edberg, and he can put his current success down to that.. he moved on !!
Rafa, and here I say I am contradicting my own previous statement, needs to ditch Toni. This I know, knowing the Spaniards as well as I do, for him is out of the question being a member of the family .. unheard of. Agassi would be a good coach for Rafa Im sure of it

^Not going to happen. He'll quit if hes not winning anymore rather than changing his coach, I'll bet on that.

No use moaning over it, just hope that he can see it himself, that he needs to change or else out he goes. To me, he's unwilling to change something (his game) that has served him well all these years. Hes unwilling to let go and then embraces new things, partly due to his not confident self and rather timid character. I think he needs to work in an environment where he feels comfortable and safe, trusting those people around him.

All I can hope now is for him to realize that he needs to play like his 2013, attack at the net more abd forget about engaging in and hoping to win the longer rallies. The stats has shown that hes no longer beating his opponents at the longer rallies so he has to think of other ways to win points.

Yep I know he wont.But if Toni cared for his nephew he would step aside.. he has had a long run.. time for you to retire Toni

Nadal did actually try and play aggressively in the neutral rallies, the issue is when you're getting very few first serves in and up against a great returner like Nishikori, you are going to be on the back foot more often than not. Nadal's double faults also proved costly I feel, not only in that they cost in him a couple of service games, but also the confidence that takes away.
I don't think he should change his coach, I don't think it would help.

As for Nishikori, I'm not surprised he played a superb match. In fact I'm more surprised that he hasn't played like that more often this year, he's 25 so should be peaking. Great return of serve, 2nd best backhand in the game, and on his forehand he has great racket head acceleration. Real threat at the US Open this year.

I don't think he should change his coach, I don't think it would help.


]Why??? For all he has done for Rafa Toni should be commended but he has run out of ideas his methods are out run. Family loyalty too should be a commendation and something I know is held on to fiercely.by Rafa . but this is Rafa's career or what is left of it. I cannot see any light at the end of the tunnel should Rafa continue trying to recapture his past successes on the court playig the way he has always done.He does not have the speed or mobility he once had, his forehand is lacking power and very often accuracy.  His game is far too passive and defensive.. someone like Agassi could bring more aggression to his game.
Continue to play 10ft behind the baseline, when his returns are barely making mid court... is a recipe for disaster.

erictheblueuk wrote:I know it's bad but if Kyrgios didn't use an audible obscenity I'm struggling to see what rule he broke.

What I find more shocking is the amount of you guys that think Nadal has a better chance of winning this than Murray or Nishikori.

I still can't believe that people picked Nadal to win this, for whatever reason the guy just doesn't move and cover the court like he used to.

^Agree. Hes not serving well and DF'ing wont help. Im a bit disappointed with the way he served, its as if hes fearing Kei's returns more than anything else. He served better vs Youzhny.

He was playing aggressively and hitting hard but a bit too late in the second set. I do feel had he started off serving well and being aggressive, he could at least win a set if not winning the match.

erictheblueuk wrote:

erictheblueuk wrote:I know it's bad but if Kyrgios didn't use an audible obscenity I'm struggling to see what rule he broke.

What I find more shocking is the amount of you guys that think Nadal has a better chance of winning this than Murray or Nishikori.

I still can't believe that people picked Nadal to win this, for whatever reason the guy just doesn't move and cover the court like he used to.

Misplaced loyalty, heart ruling head, hope, wishful thinking, cloud cuckoo land... all of this applies to me eric

Belovedluckyboy wrote:^Agree.  Hes not serving well and DF'ing wont help. Im a bit disappointed with the way he served, its as if hes fearing Kei's returns more than anything else.  He served better vs Youzhny.

He was playing aggressively and hitting hard but a bit too late in the second set.  I do feel had he started off serving well and being aggressive, he could at least win a set if not winning the match.

I don't think his approach itself was wrong, but it's hard to play aggressively when you're hitting so many second serves against Nishikori who returns everything deep. Rafa's backhand was actually really good, forehand was letting him down sometimes but he seems to have found the radar on his forehand passing shots.

Yeah, I dont think Rafa was playing badly, its his serving that Im disappointed with. Like I said, had he served well and played aggressively he would have better result. His serve really failed him big time. Also he was playing from well behind the baseline, its only until he had no choice but to play aggressively then he moved forward and approached the net. Hes 7/7 at the net but i feel he needs to go there more, not only 7 times.

Thought Murray looked very sharp last night. Tsonga was playing well and in the end got beaten in routine fashion.

I have picked Kei to win this week but I was working on the basis Novak and Andy might both be a little rusty and go out early. I can't see Novak losing to Chardy so he will have to beat them back to back. Would be a great way to win his first Masters!

Yeah ive written off the Kei man mostly because of his injuries this year, and how hard it is to follow up a great season, but hes a much chance in this masters as Murray. I dont think either will beat Novak but its not a done deal by any means

Belovedluckyboy wrote:Of course Murray was creamed in 2014, by Dimi at Wimbledon, by Cilic at Rotterdam, and some others.

Yes. After quite serious back surgery. But by this time they'd already been an improvement and he would go on to reach the QF's of the US Open, taking a set off Novak and having two other tight sets

Other than the O2, when he was understandably knackered - there was no more 'creamings'

We have no signs of Nadal improving month by month. There was with Murray

I honestly don't see a way back for Nadal. There's far more gone than a bit of pop here or there, he's simply nothing like the power, super-fit player he once was. It's not just the serve - when he was young he used his serve to start a point - it's that there is just no threat left in his ground strokes. Even short hits from opponents result in forehands that players find handleable.

Something very fundamental has changed, there's no power anymore.

"Full natty bra."

Murray will go 2nd in the rankings if he wins today.

Looks like he would take it to the US open  

Rafa into the top 8 again which is big for him. 

Most important of all. Gulbis back in the top 70.

Rafa's loss of power probably due to his back issue I feel, resulting in him hitting using his arm and shoulder strength instead of his core strength.

He also looks like he's lumbering on the tennis court instead of his usual swift footwork. This I don't understand, how can his speed and footwork deteriorate so much within such.a short time?

While Nishi was playing excellent last night he also hit what may have been - and I do not think I am exaggerating much - the worst drop shot I have ever seen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6xG8FHgg0

I have to agree there is more wrong with Rafa than has thus far been disclosed. He is a cardboard cut out of the player he was. Either he has his head buried in the sand or he has been hoping for an improvement to the problem. Unconvincing every time he goes on court..the spark has gone.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I was watching a match when Rafa was playing in the deciding game of a match  they switched over for  a Canadian who was playing, mind you even that was more understandable than switching over for Ice Hockey !!!!

I used to live in Canada.  Ice hockey is huge there - of course they would switch from tennis to hockey.  They used to not care for tennis much when I was there.  I imagine it may have changed with Raonic (and Bouchard???), but I cannot imagine it is anywhere near as popular as hockey even now.

They do not give you a choice of matches anyway sb.. you get what your given.. and of course its the Canadian players who take preference even if Novak was playing Rafa and it was 2 sets all and BP they would switch to Raonic or Ice Hockey and then when you thumb through the channels they are broadcasting the same on about three channels. Drove me to drink.. not to mention the sickly adverts with Raonic and Bouchard. But Eugene is not playing much now she has made her fortune in modelling and owns a string of Restaurants... no need for tennis when you are a multi million heiress
Its not as popular you are right.. basically the players they do have are not "home grown" anyways and it is considered to be a girlie game according to my grown ice hockey loving grandsons I don't think they have ever watched a tennis match in their lives

Haddie-nuff wrote:it is considered to be a girlie game

Yeah, indeed. I would say somewhat arbitrarily though. Both tennis and soccer are considered "girlie" in certain quarters - sometimes the lack of physical contact being cited as a reason.

Yet I never had the feeling that the same critique would extend to golf, which is somehow viewed as far more properly masculine.

Go figure.

I cant. But according to them if there are no bones broken, or blood spilt you don't get your moneys worth so it isn't worth watching.
Friday night, beer, pop corn and THE MATCH....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

LuvSports! wrote:Murray will go 2nd in the rankings if he wins today.

Looks like he would take it to the US open  

Rafa into the top 8 again which is big for him. 

Most important of all. Gulbis back in the top 70.

Fed can get it back at Cinci. Tough draw for him but he certainly can excel on that court.

Now don't go all zzzzzzzzzzzzz on me.

I like ice hockey. When I was growing up it was my favorite sport - ahead of soccer even or tennis. I still quite enjoy it, but I can also see the funny side of more extreme devotion to it.

Born Slippy wrote:Worth noting that if Murray does reach the final he will be up to Number 2 with Fed defending the title in Cinci. If so, have to assume he will be second seed for the US Open.

I was thinking the same but now after reading Truffin's comment I double checked and it is not so clear cut. Fed's Cincy points will drop off this Monday (which makes it possible for Andy to overtake him) but he has no further points dropping off next week.

So Fed would still have a chance to keep #2 seeding for the USO if he does well in Cincy.

So if Murray wins and overtakes him. He needs only to match Feds cinch result is that right?

temporary21 wrote:So if Murray wins and overtakes him. He needs only to match Feds cinch result is that right?

The drop off date for Cincy is whats allowing Murray to overtake Fed, but Cincy will determine the actual ranking.

They are drawn in same half, so if they both make semis, winner of that match gets #2 for the US open.   I think that was one reason Fed felt okay to skip Montreal.  He can earn the #2 back.

Depending on Murray not winning here of course...

So prior to any Cincy points being added (and last year's already off as mentioned above), the possible gaps between Federer & Murray (and scenarios for second seed at US Open) are:

Murray loses in Montreal SF: Fed 45 ahead (RF 8065, AM 8020)
Fed stays no.2 by matching Murray or better; if Murray goes a round better (at any stage) he gets no.2.

Murray loses in Montreal F: Murray 195 ahead (RF 8065, AM 8260)
Murray keeps no.2 by matching Federer or better; if Federer beats Murray in SF, he regains no.2. Too tired to look at other scenarios of Fed bettering Murray (since it might be redundant in a few hours!)      

Murray wins Montreal: Murray 595 ahead (RF 8065, AM 8660)
Fed regains no.2 if he wins Cincy; all other scenarios Murray keeps no.2.

I think I have that right, but haven't checked my workings out!

Assuming the numbers are right, if Murray wins tonight, then Fed could also get back no.2 if he makes the Cinci SF and Murray falls before the quarters.

Murray does make Kei's serve look under 10 standard. Virtually returning the second serves from the service line.

Yes, Murray very aggressive on 2nd serve return. He is pressing Nishi far more than Rafa was yesterday. Nishi is playing quite well again today, but so far at least struggling horribly on the second serve.

Should really have been 6-0 or 6-1 this set. Kei having to red-line to even keep afloat. Murray had break point in every return game and gifted two breaks back.

Genius lob from Kei. Two-handed backhand topspin lob probably my favourite shot in tennis.

Just wondering if Kei has a slight injury. Doesn't look to be moving that well.

Murray breaks again. Devastating.

Nishikori is done and dusted.

Well, this looks far more one-sided than what I expected.  Can Murray (assuming he wins today) challenge Novak tomorrow?

I have not seen Novak at all this week, so do not know how he has been playing.  If he is plaing his best tomorrow, I do not think Andy will beat him, but if he is just slightly off, Murray may do it - he is looking quite good.