Montreal Masters

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Started yesterday. Who's going to win it then?

Federer not playing. I voted for Djokovic.

Order of play here. Kyrgios v Verdasco looks interesting.

http://www.couperogers.com/en/schedules-and-results/order-of-play/

Shame that Kei has picked up another injury but the gap between these two is a chasm. This could have easily been a double bagel the dominance Murray has had over the Nishikori serve.

Kei has only held once in his seven service games.

Injury or no injury to Nishikori, Murray's been superb the last couple of matches

He now must take this to Novak

Even Andy's harshest critics, must admire the way he's turned himself around since Wimby last year.

Then, fans like myself and CC doubted whether we'd see him back in the top four, never mind the top 2

Personally, given the fact the Roger's played less tournies - I think Fed's the true No.2, but it's great to see Andy playing like he has this year

Murray is number 2 this year by a distance. Bar the freakish Wimbledon SF, only Novak has beaten him at Masters level or above. That needs to change tomorrow.

Born Slippy wrote:Murray is number 2 this year by a distance. Bar the freakish Wimbledon SF, only Novak has beaten him at Masters level or above. That needs to change tomorrow.

Love to agree with you, but Andy's only meeting with Roger this year ended in a defeat. That's tells me he's really No.3

In fairness I get your point - I'm pretty confident that he'd beat Roger, right now

I wouldn't want to call a Fed v Murray match but, given Fed has lost big matches this year to Seppi, Kyrgios, Monfils and Stan, I would say its hard to call him the real number 2.

Born Slippy wrote:I wouldn't want to call a Fed v Murray match but, given Fed has lost big matches this year to Seppi, Kyrgios, Monfils and Stan, I would say its hard to call him the real number 2.

Is Murray losing to #51 Gabashvili @Washington in the same category?

I watched last night and Murray just had the edge in the first set whilst the second set was a non-event considering Nishikori was so hindered by injury.

The final later will be won by Novak if Andy cannot find that necessary aggressive and attacking style in significant enough quantity and quality.

Your glass is half empty CC

I have a feeling Andy is gonna nail this one

Nishikori confirmed in his press conference "there was no injury but he was suffering from fatigue", Andy did make him do a lot of running in the first set.

Good result  for Andy and a repeat against Novak would be nice!

Haddie-nuff wrote:Your glass is half empty CC

I have a feeling Andy is gonna nail this one

Glass half empty comes from waiting for so long for Andy to beat Novak. He is on an eight match losing run against him so surely it is only understandable the glass is half-empty?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Your glass is half empty CC

I have a feeling Andy is gonna nail this one

Glass half empty comes from waiting for so long for Andy to beat Novak. He is on an eight match losing run against him so surely it is only understandable the glass is half-empty?

Ok ok my failed attempt to keep you optimistic ... my mistake

I tend to be the sort that optimism comes from wins by Andy against the absolute best players. Now he has improved a heck of a lot from the dark days of last year but so far this year he has proven he is the best of the rest but in the absolute crunch matches he has come up short V Djokovic and Federer. Until he wins one of these crunch matches against one of those players then I'll always have him as the underdog.

Ill tell you what a this moment in time Id swap places

Haddie-nuff wrote:Ill tell you what a this moment in time Id swap places

Oh of course but I think it is all a matter of scale. Just now Rafa fans have no optimism of him beating perhaps a top ten player whereas my lack of optimism with Murray is in him beating Djokovic or Federer. At present I'd be optimistic of him winning crunch matches (those two players aside).

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Ill tell you what a this moment in time Id swap places

Oh of course but I think it is all a matter of scale. Just now Rafa fans have no optimism of him beating perhaps a top ten player whereas my lack of optimism with Murray is in him beating Djokovic or Federer. At present I'd be optimistic of him winning crunch matches (those two players aside).

I think Rafa can and probably will... but his wins are spasmodic and inconsistent. To lose to Nish so comprehensively, who is not playing at his best, is an indicator of where he is (or isn't) His performance is strange and inexplicable imo

Haddie-nuff wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Ill tell you what a this moment in time Id swap places

Oh of course but I think it is all a matter of scale. Just now Rafa fans have no optimism of him beating perhaps a top ten player whereas my lack of optimism with Murray is in him beating Djokovic or Federer. At present I'd be optimistic of him winning crunch matches (those two players aside).

I think Rafa can and probably will... but his wins are spasmodic and inconsistent. To lose to Nish so comprehensively, who is not playing at his best, is an indicator of where he is (or isn't) His performance is strange and inexplicable imo

Well I have my own theories for which I have been criticised. Rafa, to me, has always been about supreme belief and fitness (and the talent of course) but take away the belief and fitness and you bring him down a few levels. That is where he is at just now. His fitness has been torpedoed by injuries and his operation but his belief has been eroded away as well. That must leave him with serious self-doubt issues about whether he still has it and when you get to that stage it is a long way back. Yes Murray was there last year but I believe that was more about fitness as Murray's self-belief was never an unwaivering strength of his - if you see what I mean. For him once he had his fitness back he never had the self-doubt to the degree I think Rafa has now.

The more defeats Rafa suffers then the more he'll feel he no longer has it. Somehow he has to break out of this phase he is in - if that is possible.

Well you are not criticised for that belief by me, I think we are more or less, on the same page. His fitness problems are an issue certainly, he has had so many injuries, it must have plagued him with self doubt.  Im sticking my neck out here when I say also that he has been so indoctrinated by Toni, never to complain or ask for help, that he is responsible for the outcome of his own mistakes, that what he really needs now is some friendly encouragement and help from someone who can set him free from that 'little boy who has to please Uncle T' as though he has some obligation to please him above everything else.  He appears to look more and more to his camp when he does or does not do something right. I know that sounds somewhat dramatic but there just has to be some mental issue that he cannot get past. Physical problems he has always taken in his stride.. either that or he is burying his head in the sand and cannot accept his days are fast  approaching when he has to hang up his racquet. Either way CC it pains me to watch the dynamic player he once was turn into a journeyman satisfied with small wins for what?? he sure as hell does not need the money

It is also another possibility that (along with my other points) that he has naturally passed his peak so to rediscover what went before at a time when his self-belief is low and fitness is not as it was that it is now just a step too far? Players do rise and peak then fall at different ages.

Don't get to see many tennis tournaments live, but do try and see the men in Montreal and visit the US Open occasionally.
Went to Parc Jarry on Thursday and watched the Djokovich/Sock and Murray/Muller matches in their entirety. Had never seen Murray play singles live - most impressive.

Was shocked at how quickly Novak sussed out Sock (who seemed to run round his backhand at every opportunity) and how early it was that Sock decided to mail it in; pathetic for a youngster who would have learned a lot by just fighting for every point. Sock will get massive America media attention at the US Open, but seldom does anything to justify it. Bit like the one-dimensional Donald Young for the past eight or nine years.

Impressed with Chardy getting on top of Karlovic and eventually wearing him down. And great to see Gulbis playing well again.

One thing about Rafa, who I never seem to see live; he stayed after practice to sign autographs for about 10-15 minutes. Good for him.

My theory about the current Rafa:

He's not going all out to win for fear of reinjuring himself. I think he's trying to protect his back, he's not too sure whether the stem cell treatment really can solve his back issue, so he's not using his core strength all the time when hitting his shots, just when absolutely necessary (he did hit some good shots with pace and depth nearing the end of second set, evident that he's capable of doing so). I feel that may explain why he's hitting some powder puff shots, when he's using his arm and shoulder strength instead. Perhaps his shoulder issue arises from that.

He has stated that he wish to have a no injury full season, so hes setting humble target of getting to WTF, not about winning slam. I think he's trying not to have injury and the subsequent stop start and the rebuilding of stamina and fitness all over again.

By playing consistently throughout a full season, he'll not have any fitness or stamina issue, and by playing and reaching QFs and sometimes SFs and Fs, he may sustain a top eight ranking so that he can start the next season well.

This season is about rebuilding, not necessarily winning. We are being spoilt by his 2013 unbelivable comeback, that we expect to see a similar comeback this year, but Rafa has warned us not to have high expectations but be patient. I think he knows the seriousness of his back injury so he's not going to exert too much pressure too soon. I think we can look to Fed and Murray for their respective comebacks and see a better Rafa next year (than the current one).

Socal, is there any possibility that you're in Montreal and smoked a lot of cannabis just before you watched Djokovic's semi against Chardy ?

Just asking, cheers

Im not sold on the idea that this is purely physical with Rafa.Toni wrote an article once that Rafa has continued to play in pain throughout his career.
Ever since he was diagnosed with a genetic foot problem at the age of 15 yrs old which threatened to end his career. It spurred Rafa on to combat, foot, knee,, elbow, abdominal muscle tear, appendicitis.. Don't tell me that it is a back problem that is the issue here.  It is a mental one I am convinced and it may well be that the fear, as I have stated before, that his body will betray him again is what is on his mind.  In which case I would suggest that the time has come to rethink his career. Either change his coach, his game ...or ???!

Is anyone predicting a Murray win or even a close final? Djoko has won 11 of their last 12 meetings, including the last 8. That's more one-sided than Fed-Rafa ever was and eventually people complained that there was no entertainment value left in the latter match-up because it was a foregone conclusion. Is the same now true of Djoko-Murray?

Haddie-nuff wrote:Either change his coach, his game ...or ???!

I know this is the common held view. In fact for most of his career Rafa has been urged by some to change his game (hit hard and flat) and we have been told frequently that he is on the verge of ???! (because he ages at a different rate to other mortals... apparently). The first time I watched Rafa at Wimbledon in 2006 the commentators were informing me of both these things. The coach thing is new. Perhaps spurred on by other players switching and/or adding coaches? Or perhaps spurred on by people wanting someone else to tell him to change his game now that it looks like Toni won't?

But why should he do any of those things? His game is fine because we've seen it in patches. He is not 25 anymore but his rivals are 34 and 28. They have both been running about too much on tennis courts too. He knows how to play tennis so he hardly needs a new coach as such and he has a team that has been him through thick and thin. Some of the names mentioned as alternative coaches are the very ones who suggest that his game isn't good enough and that he is finished. If it's confidence he is short of he should keep well away from them.

After such a poor start Rafa is now number 6 in the race. Just a couple of hundred points behind Kei at 5 and 1,000 points behind Fed and Wawrinka at 4 and three. I'm not convinced that in level of play he's that far behind Murray either. I wouldn't even try to argue that point here though IMO he will keep on doing what he's always done. Also IMO he should keep on doing what he's always done. No one can see into the future so we will just have to wait and see what happens

JuliusHMarx wrote:Is anyone predicting a Murray win or even a close final? Djoko has won 11 of their last 12 meetings, including the last 8. That's more one-sided than Fed-Rafa ever was and eventually people complained that there was no entertainment value left in the latter match-up because it was a foregone conclusion. Is the same now true of Djoko-Murray?

Apparently Djokovic has an arm injury.

hawkeye wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Is anyone predicting a Murray win or even a close final? Djoko has won 11 of their last 12 meetings, including the last 8. That's more one-sided than Fed-Rafa ever was and eventually people complained that there was no entertainment value left in the latter match-up because it was a foregone conclusion. Is the same now true of Djoko-Murray?

Apparently Djokovic has an arm injury.

Djoko to win in three sets then?

IMO he will keep on doing what he's always done. Also IMO he should keep on doing what he's always done. No one can see into the future so we will just have to wait and see what happens Smile

Well if you are advocating he play the defensive game he has always done ??
10 ft behind the base line as he has always done ??
Exchanging 40 stroke rallies with the like of Novak as he has always done ??
Power shots down and across court as he has always done ??
Then I  think you are in for a disappointment HE
Cloud cuckoo land is not a place I choose to inhabit. Coz it just aint going to happen.. if it was there he would have found it by now

I thought I mentioned that Rafa 'fear of reinjuring himself'? Isnt that something that's mental?

hawkeye wrote:

Haddie-nuff wrote:Either change his coach, his game ...or ???!

His game is fine because we've seen it in patches

Did you actually see the Nishikori match?

Or is your definition of "fine" when talking about a multi-slam legend, based on beating players outside the Top 10?

Belovedluckyboy wrote:I thought I mentioned that Rafa 'fear of reinjuring himself'? Isnt that something that's mental?

Rafa has no "fear' IF that had been the case he would have given up years ago
There is something more that is the problem here.
IMO he has lost his way. There is something fundamentally wrong in why he has lost his self belief and his confidence
I do not believe it is physically related: His mental strength has been the core of his game.. it is that strength that has intimidated his opponents it has gone he does not have that "on court presence " anymore. When Rafa walked onto the court everyone held their breath.. what would he produce this time ??? its gone, he knows it has, and it shows

I honestly believe Murray is going to win this match based on current form. Murray I feel has been better and more consistent in this tournament plus Novak has a bit of an arm injury. I feel like Novak playing and making a deep run in doubles also breaks up his recovery and rest schedule this week. To me Djokovic has looked rusty this season.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Belovedluckyboy wrote:I thought I mentioned that Rafa 'fear of reinjuring himself'? Isnt that something that's mental?

I do not believe it is physically related: His mental strength has been the core of his game.. it is that strength that has intimidated his opponents it has gone he does not have that "on court presence " anymore. When Rafa walked onto the court everyone held their breath.. what would he produce this time ??? its gone, he knows it has, and it shows

There is a heck of a lot of truth in that. Remember a year or two ago much was made of Rafa's imperious head-to-head record against virtually every player on tour. Rafa would walk onto court with his opponents already doubting themselves throughout even the warm-up. Now the boot is on the other foot. His dip in form and run of losses against players of all rankings has eroded that aura of invincibility away greatly. Now Rafa's confidence is so low it is probably him going onto court doubting his ability to win the match before him. Psychologically, Rafa is a shell of what he was.

Rafa like Sampras had an aura. These guys weren't going to be beat. A driven mindset that they weren't going to lose. They struck fear into their opponents and had an edge over them. A winner's appetite. Once Sampras was de-throned at Wimbledon he lost his belief that was integral. Same has happened to Nadal. That mindset of a winner and he's lost that. How he gets that back, I don't know.

I remember reading an article about Rafa by his friends. They said they hated playing anything competitive against Rafa even backgammon which he is extremely good at, because he hates to lose  

The thing about Rafa is it is not his will to win.. but his will not to lose.
Federer once said of him that he will never give in, you never know you have beaten him until the last point is played.  HE WAS the hardest player to break..and he defended until the last.

His own mother once said she never recognised her son on court until he walked to the net taking of his bandana.
THAT Rafa is no more

Haddie I think you are being too harsh.

In 2009 Rafa lost in the quarters of Canada (to Del Potro ranked 6) and got to the semi's of the US

In 2010 Rafa lost in the semi's of Canada (to Murray ranked 4) and won the US

In 2011 Rafa lost in his first match in Canada (to Dodig ranked 41) and got to the final of the US

He didn't play in 2012

In 2013 he did the American hard court sweep. But even Rafa can't be expected to do that every year

He didn't play in 2014

In 2015 Rafa lost in the quarter finals of Canada (to Kei ranked 5)

It has been a very poor year for Nadal so to expect him to do better than he's done at the end of the year tournaments in years were he's come in at full form maybe a bit much. I know the mantra is to write him off but we should just wait and see.

Haddie-nuff wrote:I remember reading an article about Rafa by his friends. They said they hated playing anything competitive against Rafa even backgammon which he is extremely good at, because he hates to lose  

The thing about Rafa is it is not his will to win.. but his will not to lose.
Federer once said of him that he will never give in, you never know you have beaten him until the last point is played.  HE WAS the hardest player to break..and he defended until the last.

His own mother once said she never recognised her son on court until he walked to the net taking of his bandana.
THAT Rafa is no more

Will power can only take you so far though. You also need the belief (very much lacking just now), the confidence (very much lacking just now) and to be playing at a consistently high level which Rafa isn't.

hawkeye wrote:Haddie I think you are being too harsh.

In 2009 Rafa lost in the quarters of Canada (to Del Potro ranked 6) and got to the semi's of the US

In 2010 Rafa lost in the semi's of Canada (to Murray ranked 4) and won the US

In 2011 Rafa lost in his first match in Canada (to Dodig ranked 41) and got to the final of the US

He didn't play in 2012

In 2013 he did the American hard court sweep. But even Rafa can't be expected to do that every year

He didn't play in 2014

In 2015 Rafa lost in the quarter finals of Canada (to Kei ranked 5)

It has been a very poor year for Nadal so to expect him to do better than he's done at the end of the year tournaments in years were he's come in at full form maybe a bit much. I know the mantra is to write him off but we should just wait and see.

How do you explain away his clay court disasters this season? That is without doubt by a million miles, his worst clay court season he has ever had.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/tennis/33951245

I reckon it was this guy Nole.....

https://youtu.be/WeYsTmIzjkw

Haddie-nuff wrote:I remember reading an article about Rafa by his friends. They said they hated playing anything competitive against Rafa even backgammon which he is extremely good at, because he hates to lose  

The thing about Rafa is it is not his will to win.. but his will not to lose.
Federer once said of him that he will never give in, you never know you have beaten him until the last point is played.  HE WAS the hardest player to break..and he defended until the last.

His own mother once said she never recognised her son on court until he walked to the net taking of his bandana.
THAT Rafa is no more

My feeling is that he loves to compete. It's not the winning or losing but being out there putting it all on the line. When Nadal beat Federer at the AO in 2009 there was a quote from him about feeling he'd got to the top of a mountain but feeling a little desolate about it. I reckon he loved the thrill of the chase for Federer but once he had got there the thrill had perhaps gone. He also has said that one of his favorite matches was the AO 2012 were he lost to Djokovic in that 6 hour match.

Has he always been the hardest player to break? I have memories of him regularly going down 0-3 in matches and then fighting back.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Haddie I think you are being too harsh.

In 2009 Rafa lost in the quarters of Canada (to Del Potro ranked 6) and got to the semi's of the US

In 2010 Rafa lost in the semi's of Canada (to Murray ranked 4) and won the US

In 2011 Rafa lost in his first match in Canada (to Dodig ranked 41) and got to the final of the US

He didn't play in 2012

In 2013 he did the American hard court sweep. But even Rafa can't be expected to do that every year

He didn't play in 2014

In 2015 Rafa lost in the quarter finals of Canada (to Kei ranked 5)

It has been a very poor year for Nadal so to expect him to do better than he's done at the end of the year tournaments in years were he's come in at full form maybe a bit much. I know the mantra is to write him off but we should just wait and see.

How do you explain away his clay court disasters this season? That is without doubt by a million miles, his worst clay court season he has ever had.

I can't explain them away they happened.

hawkeye wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

hawkeye wrote:Haddie I think you are being too harsh.

In 2009 Rafa lost in the quarters of Canada (to Del Potro ranked 6) and got to the semi's of the US

In 2010 Rafa lost in the semi's of Canada (to Murray ranked 4) and won the US

In 2011 Rafa lost in his first match in Canada (to Dodig ranked 41) and got to the final of the US

He didn't play in 2012

In 2013 he did the American hard court sweep. But even Rafa can't be expected to do that every year

He didn't play in 2014

In 2015 Rafa lost in the quarter finals of Canada (to Kei ranked 5)

It has been a very poor year for Nadal so to expect him to do better than he's done at the end of the year tournaments in years were he's come in at full form maybe a bit much. I know the mantra is to write him off but we should just wait and see.

How do you explain away his clay court disasters this season? That is without doubt by a million miles, his worst clay court season he has ever had.

I can't explain them away they happened.

And they happened due to his standards having plunged to new depths which he has not recovered from. He is in a slump similar to Murray last year but remember Murray was recovering from back surgery whereas Rafa had appendicitis. So we can safely say it is not so much a fitness issue but a pyschological issue - a massive crisis in confidence and self-belief.

I have memories of him regularly y down 0-3 in matches and then fighting back.

Yes HE we all have those memories..but that is what they are MEMORIES
I remember him saving 5 match points against Nalbandian and going on to win.. Now I see his opponent getting a service break and my heart sinks to my stomach,

You carry on HE believe in fairies if it makes you feel better.
It pains me too much to see the man who WAS,  imo, the saviour of tennis after the Sampras years... I do not want to see him as a has been, the subject of ridicule or pity. Am I harsh?? possibly... am I realistic most probably.. if I am not then I will be the first one, and happy, to admit it

I am surprised at how much optimism there is in Andy's camp today.  I thought he played well last night but not spectacularly well.  The match was fairly close before Nishi ran out of steam, with both players initially breaking each other with relative ease.

Unless Andy improves substantially, I would expect him to lose - perhaps quite easily - to Novak.

I have to admit that I have not seen Novak play yet this week.  If he is significantly below par - for example because of the purported injury - then the match could be close, or Andy might even win.

I don't think many of Andys followers are seeing him win the match outright given their meetings this year.

All I hope for is an even contest at best!

I am not necessarily one of Andy's followers, but I get a gut feeling he could pull this one out of the bag.. I hope so.. another Novak win is sooooooooooooo boring

legendkillarV2 wrote:I don't think many of Andys followers are seeing him win the match outright given their meetings this year.

All I hope for is an even contest at best!

Precisely. I am not sure, summertimeblues, who you are saying in the Murray camp are confident?

Andy has to end the losing streak to Novak sooner or later, and I think tonight may be the night.

This prediction is, of course, undermined by my having made the same one for the previous 3 or 4 matches and being wrong each time!

But seriously, the gap between their respective best levels and current forms is not big enough for this streak to last indefinitely. Andy has to do it eventually and I think tonight he will.

I agree with Hawkeye. Rafa is competitive and he enjoys the competition more than the win. To him as long as he can compete well and plays a good match, even when he loses, he won't feel that disappointed.

I thought some people here were saying Rafa was doubting his own body, whether his body would hold up? Then why the surprise that he fear to re-injure himself?? We can't compare Rafa now to the younger Rafa where he 'used' to get injury but could comeback and reached top level almost immediately.

In fact in 2009, a much younger Rafa was also lacking in confidence after an injury comeback, and was losing to or almost lost to players he used to own. It took him one full year to finally win a title and its on clay at MC.

Rafa has being through many ups and downs in his career, in 2005, 2009, 2011 (where he kept losing to Novak and was suffering from burnout), 2012, 2014. Whether he can comeback successfully once again this time we have to wait and see. Rafa is not the only one losing to journeymen during his comeback, Fed and Murray too lost to them too during their own bad years and comebacks.

It's Rafa's career so he's the one to decide when to quit. If he's happy to stay in top 10 or top 8 and winning smaller events with occasional wins at the big ones, then let him be, why ask him to quit?? It's like what Fed is doing these days, not winning the big ones but still stays in the top four or top eight and enjoying the tennis and the adulations shown to him by fans, commentators, tournament directors etc and etc.