Eng v Aus - Limited Overs Thread

[LondonTiger]

Fixtures:

31 Aug: T20, Cardiff, 15:00 BST

3 Sep: 1st ODI, Southampton, 14:00
5 Sep: 2nd ODI, Lord's, 10:30
8 Sep: 3rd ODI, Old Trafford, 14:00
11 Sep: 4th ODI, Headingley, 10:30
13 Sep: 5th ODI, Old Trafford, 10:30


Squads:

England T20:
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, capt), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Sam Billings (Kent), Jos Buttler (Lancashire, wk), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), Reece Topley (Essex), James Vince (Hampshire), David Willey (Northamptonshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire).


England ODI
Eoin Morgan (Middlesex, capt), Moeen Ali (Worcestershire), Sam Billings (Kent), Jos Buttler (Lancashire, wk), Steven Finn (Middlesex), Alex Hales (Nottinghamshire), Liam Plunkett (Yorkshire), Adil Rashid (Yorkshire), Jason Roy (Surrey), Ben Stokes (Durham), James Taylor (Nottinghamshire), David Willey Northamptonshire), Chris Woakes (Warwickshire), Mark Wood (Durham)




Australia
David Warner, Joe Burns, Steve Smith (capt), Shane Watson, George Bailey, Matthew Wade, Mitch Marsh, Marcus Stoinis, Glenn Maxwell, Ashton Agar, Nathan Coulter-Nile, Mitchell Starc, Pat Cummins, James Pattinson. Cameron Boyce (T20 only)

[LondonTiger]

Biggest news I guess is Joe Root being rested. Should give Messrs Vince and Taylor chances in T20 and ODI respectively.

Only 5 players from the test series make either of Englands ODI squads. After being MotM in England's last ODI, Bairstow may be a little disappointed - but omissions of the others not unexpected. Of course from a partisan point of view I am hoping root and Bairstow will be allowed to play for Yorkshire.

Australia stacking their bowling with pace - will England's batters cope?

[guildfordbat]

Surprised there's no place for Bairstow. Unlike Root, I wouldn't regard him as exhausted or established.

[JDizzle]

Hales, Ali, Taylor, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, Billings, Rashid, Willey, Wood, Finn. I would presume for the ODIs, unless they go proper gung ho and through Roy in for Taylor and bat Moeen at 3, but I can't see it.

[LondonTiger]

Surprised there's no place for Bairstow. Unlike Root, I wouldn't regard him as exhausted or established.

Well I guess they see Bairstow as reserve keeper - and they are better if he is playing rather than carrying drinks.

[LondonTiger]

Hales, Ali, Taylor, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, Billings, Rashid, Willey, Wood, Finn. I would presume for the ODIs, unless they go proper gung ho and through Roy in for Taylor and bat Moeen at 3, but I can't see it.

I agree with that as most likely line-up. We need to see more from Billings in this series. Chances for Hales, Taylor and Rashid to nail down touring spots in this series.

[Gooseberry]

It is big news that Roots out but makes a lot of sense. This does seem a bit like a limited interest rathe rthan a limited over series. It perhaps shouldnt be though, Englands ODI series against NZ was far better value, if a bit ridiculous, than the Ashes test series panned out to be for all the "glory" of 3 wins.
There was also a real buzz of positivity around the ODIs, it would be nice to see that kept up even if theres a 3 senior players missing. Always nice if we can rub it in on the Aussies by comepting in tehse games as well, its been incredibly rare for England to back up a good decnet test series with a decent ODI one or vice versa across the years.
The split squad idea should reduce the effects of any Ashes hangover or feeling its a phoney war for the players at least.
That theres a handfull of players with a real point to prove and a chance to press for a winter tour spot is good.

For Aus theres a hell of a lot more points to prove and reputations to enhance, as well as the need to restore some pride to the battered ego.
Burns Bailey and Wade all have a chance to press a case for future test inclussion.
Kawjahahahawwaja being left out seems an odd one to me, hed been scoring a lot of runs in limited overs, and theres been a noise coming out of Aus fans that he should get another chance in the test top 3. Is he injured?

[LondonTiger]

Kawjahahahawwaja being left out seems an odd one to me, hed been scoring a lot of runs in limited overs, and theres been a noise coming out of Aus fans that he should get another chance in the test top 3. Is he injured?

do not think so. Last played less than a fortnight ago against India A. A number of thet aussie team are in the squad and looks like his opening partner Burns got the batting spot.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/match/892973.html

[VTR]

England's batting looking very light without the run machine that is Joe Root in there. I expect a typical after the Lord mayor's show performance so will go 3-1 Australia with one game abandoned

[guildfordbat]

Surprised there's no place for Bairstow. Unlike Root, I wouldn't regard him as exhausted or established.

Well I guess they see Bairstow as reserve keeper - and they are better if he is playing rather than carrying drinks.

Although I'm not Bairstow's greatest supporter, I thought he would have a claim to be in the mix purely as a batsman. Probably a stronger claim than Billings.

[Duty281]

I think England will get thrashed in this series, save for one game where one England batsman carves out a spellbinding century on a flat deck in perfect, glorious sunshine.

I suppose the real question is - who cares?

[JDizzle]

Surprised there's no place for Bairstow. Unlike Root, I wouldn't regard him as exhausted or established.

Well I guess they see Bairstow as reserve keeper - and they are better if he is playing rather than carrying drinks.

Although I'm not Bairstow's greatest supporter, I thought he would have a claim to be in the mix purely as a batsman. Probably a stronger claim than Billings.

Presumably they see Bairstow as competing for the numbers 4/5/6 slots in the batting order, rather than the pure finisher at 7 which is what Billings is in to do. I would agree that Billings needs a score or two this series to keep his place though. Otherwise promoting Rashid to 7 and Willey to 8 and playing another bowler becomes a realistic option.

Ross Whiteley a dark horse for the 'finisher' position in the future? Good in the field and smacks it absolutely miles.

[LondonTiger]

My understanding is that Yorkshire plan to use Willey in the finisher role in 50 over cricket next season (open in T20 of course). Mind Dilly had some useful late over innings in the last series.

[Gooseberry]

I think England will get thrashed in this series, save for one game where one England batsman carves out a spellbinding century on a flat deck in perfect, glorious sunshine.

I suppose the real question is - who cares?

We should though, because it will show if the New Zelaand series was just a lucky dip lottery win or if the limited overs side has genuinely turne da corner. It may be a whiole till the next major trophy but England have a young side and a new approach which the internet kept demanding. This will be a test as to whether or not it was right and a big signal to the future for English cricket.
The moral change that came across the whole English camp from the manner in which they went about winning the ODI series against NZ
For the players iots a big deal too. Most of these guys arent on the test side, this is their international cricket. Theres a few who maybe are pressing a claim to spots on the winter tour too. Hales has a chance to prove he can hack opening in 50 overs which puts him a step closer to being able to pretend hes a potentential test opener.
The Aussies sure as heckins will care, if just so Shane Warne has something to troll Sky viewers with other than pitch conditions.

The viewing figures and attendances will hopefully be pretty decent, given the buzz the NZ ones created and that England have been succesful so far against Aus. Sure it wont get the attention thet the Ashes did and maybe isnt quite seen as a competition in its own right like they are but its not as dull and pointless (ECB bank acccount disagrees with that) a series as these normally are.

Then again the way things are at the minute theres a chance the entire thing will be wiped out by biblical floods anyway.

[Jetty]

I can't see why there is no Tredwell in ODIs. 27.76 econ 4.75 s/r 35.0.
Rashid 46.36 econ 6.21 econ 44.7.
Rashid is better in 20/20s.

[LondonTiger]

I can't see why there is no Tredwell in ODIs.

Three main reasons:

1) Because the management believe bowlers need to take wickets in ODIs and they feel Rashid is the more likely
2) Tredwell's performances have seemed to be declining (his 9 ODIs in the last year have seen his economy hardly change but strike rate and average worsen significantly) and as he will be 37 come the next world cup there is every reason to believe that may continue.
3) He is an off-spinner. Moeen will be bowling plenty of overs, with Root available as backup.

[Gooseberry]

Rashid can bat, England are all about attacking and not containing now. Although purely on figures Tredwell has the better strike rate Rashid is generaly seen as more of a wicket taking bowler.

Rashids figures also arguably suffered from the games he has played.

Thats said its another of the odd things England do. Both he and Woakes built their reputations on first class performances, whilst being only decent in domestic limited overs games. Yet only ever get picked for limited overs games, and gradually pigeonhold as specialists in those formats.

With Rashid it may also be the case that they want to have him in the squad to carry drinks if they just go with Moeen to see how much they can really annoy Yorkshire.

[LondonTiger]

With Rashid it may also be the case that they want to have him in the squad to carry drinks if they just go with Moeen to see how much they can really annoy Yorkshire.

I assumed that was a given.

[guildfordbat]

With Rashid it may also be the case that they want to have him in the squad to carry drinks if they just go with Moeen to see how much they can really annoy Yorkshire.

I assumed that was a given.

Yeah, but why not go for broke and have Bairstow alongside him?

[LondonTiger]

With Morgan joining Stokes the diversity quota has been used up. Gotta keep HR happy.

[Jetty]

I can't see why there is no Tredwell in ODIs.

Three main reasons:

1) Because the management believe bowlers need to take wickets in ODIs and they feel Rashid is the more likely
2) Tredwell's performances have seemed to be declining (his 9 ODIs in the last year have seen his economy hardly change but strike rate and average worsen significantly) and as he will be 37 come the next world cup there is every reason to believe that may continue.
3) He is an off-spinner. Moeen will be bowling plenty of overs, with Root available as backup.

You are right. In the last year he has played 9 ODIs - 8 wickets at 45.87. I didn't realise he had such bad figures.

[guildfordbat]

In an absolutely crazy RL 50 quarter-final, Tredders supplied some sanity and bowled really well for Kent against Surrey. Three wickets including Sangakkara (an absolute beauty of a ball, that one) and Roy. I would still trust him in England colours.

[Gooseberry]

Interesting warm up for the Aussies yesterday. Looks like a few of the ODI specialists need the match practise but a comofrtable win after a flying start. Good debut for Burns, pretty clear where the future lies for Aus although I still find it surprising that Kwhaja didnt even make the tour.

[LondonTiger]

In an absolutely crazy RL 50 quarter-final, Tredders supplied some sanity and bowled really well for Kent against Surrey. Three wickets including Sangakkara (an absolute beauty of a ball, that one) and Roy. I would still trust him in England colours.

Do you agree that there is some logic around their decision to exclude him?


If it had gone the other way and they said "We are not convinced by Rashid", I could see the logic in recalling Tredwell until they decide upon the next spinner they hope can take them through till the 2019 WC. Not sure a single, crazy series against NZ is enough to judge, so we will learn far more about Rashid in this series than we would about Tredwell who only his most ardent fans surely believe he will be good enough in 4 years time.


BTW after a shocking shot to be dismissed, Rashid bowled beautifully to stop what was an Essex cruise to victory when he came on.

[guildfordbat]

Tiger - certainly no claims by me that Trewell's exclusion was illogical. I wasn't even demanding his inclusion. Having gone this far with Rashid, albeit in a rather round the houses and half-hearted way, the selectors had to stick with him for this series.

I was more perhaps trying to point out that imo Tredders could still do a decent job for England - now anyway - and that he's been remarkably unlucky on the international front. Up against England's greatest ever spinner (arguably) for most of his career and when at last his main chance to take the spotlight appeared to have come he was deemed not young/exciting/attacking enough.

I take your point about Tredwell and the 2019 WC but feel we also need to consider the here and now. Remember that Riley - Tredwell's rival for a place in the Kent team -was the great hope of 2014 and was being touted for an international call up then but is hardly anywhere to be seen now.

[LondonTiger]

I am sure this point of view will get short shrift from the bulk of England followers on here who seen to be Surrey fans, but I really wish England had opened with Hales and Ali and selected Vince at 3 today.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

What a freaking batting line up we have

[jimbohammers]

Vince top runscorer in England. Still not selected. Ridiculous really.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Vince top runscorer in England. Still not selected. Ridiculous really.

He'll get a go at some point soon but the guys in the side have no need to be displaced

Cummins is properly sharp

[jimbohammers]

Disagree Olly. Madness not to select a guy with the most runs in the domestic comp. What else can he do to get selected?

[LondonTiger]

Thing is, Roy came int the squad earlier in the summer as Ali's stand in. Now that Ali is no longer rested and Root is would have been the last chance this summer to look at Vince.

Wonder whether Ali will be at 3 (thus no place for Taylor) or open in the 50 over games.

[Mat]

Probably going to jinx it now, but Moeen is great to watch.

[guildfordbat]

With a bit of re-jigging of the order, couldn't Vince replace Billings? I'm not convinced the latter has done or shown enough at this stage.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Probably going to jinx it now, but Moeen is great to watch.

Could watch him play the drive all day - beautiful

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Shane Watson is easily my favorite cricketer ever

[JDizzle]

Did Topley used to be quick? He's had a few injuries, and I'm sure he used to be more than 82mph...

[Gooseberry]

Decent win in the end. Watsons career is not ending well.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Really gotta like this ODI/T20 side - huge potential, and a bunch of exciting players in the team and on the periphery. 

A sneaky dark horse for the T20 World Cup I'd say

[LondonTiger]

Did Topley used to be quick? He's had a few injuries, and I'm sure he used to be more than 82mph...

Never really seen him bowl any quicker than around the 80mph mark.

[wisden]

he's always been around 80-83 mph

[guildfordbat]

he's always been around 80-83 mph

When heading to the sick bay? Touch of the Tremletts about Topley!

[JDizzle]

Cheers chaps. I remembered him having a lot of injuries, so probably just assumed he has lost some pace! Showed some nice variations, and could be useful as a death bowler. But he needs to be spot as he doesn't have the pace/movement of a Starc at the death. Plus he doesn't really bat or field. Still, that sounds like I am very down him, but it was a good start!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Confirmed that Roy and Hales will open in the ODI Series, as England look set to continue with pretty much the same side that beat New Zealand (obviously Root out - and either Moeen or Taylor in, you would think Moeen just edges that)

[LondonTiger]

Moeen has two centuries in the last year opening in ODIs. He should be the first name on the team sheet.

Roy needs to take this chance, as so far his returns have been Lythesque.

[Gooseberry]

Moeens selection is a bit of a no brainer on his batting alone, certainly after another good innings in the T20. Factoring in the extra bowling option and Taylor being hated by the selecxtors I really cant see it as a choice.

Roy and Billings are certainly being given a fair crack to prove themselves. Its worth remembering that guys like Stokes took a fair bit of time and a few false starts to find their feet in interntaional cricket.
Hales too...theres a certain assumption about his place, but so far hes yet to really deliver in ODIS. So the opening partnership is still a real gamble. Having Ali at 3 does at least mean theres another player who can step staright in and do the job in that role. Obviously missing Root take a big chunk out of the threat in the middle order, but at least Morgan appears to be continuing where he left off at the end of the NZ series rather than the dog awful form hes shown at county level.
With Buttler struggling for form recently England do seem fragile despite having some good all rounder batting. Id prefer to see Taylor in for Billings, but its unlikley to happen and hardly a game changer.

Good to see Aus are likley to continue selecting Watson

[VTR]

Agreed, we need to give players a chance. Hales does not have a good record but has also never had the security of a run of games to find his feet.

Roy and Billings have played very few games and need a bit of backing as well so they can play without fear.

This series is an ideal chance to bed in some new players, the next ODI tournament is 2017, no-one will be that bothered if England lost this 4-1 or even 5-0 in a couple of months time

[Gooseberry]

The players who get ditched probably will.

*Id also add that Taylor is pretty much a new player still as well. Hes only had a run from last winter to spring in the side, during which he did very well up till the world cup when he caught the malaise that affected the entire squad.



That said he doenst really fit the bill for the new style England, and wont really ever be a T20 style basher so fair enough...at the moment they are trying out the players who can turn England into a 350+ or out for 100 side, rather than a "if we get to 270 we have a 51% chance of winning" side.

I feel he has been a bit hard done by but at least there is a clear vision and plan, and investement is being made in the long term interests of a few guys who England feel can make that happen...rather than a wholesale selection of every kid with a vaguely english background and a good T20 innings to their name, or just picking whichever players they think could make the test side in 2 years.

[LondonTiger]

Along with Ballance, Taylor got completely shafted at the WC. He had done well at 3 in SL and the warm up games, then come WC they suddenley brought in Ballance from nowhere and moved Taylor down to 6.

Taylor could do a similar job to Joe Root at 3, and has a better ListA record, and it would have been good to see him come in. Instead what we get is ali at 3 (probably) and the decision on the lineup deferred till Root is back in the team.

I am impressed by the approach we are taking to ODIs - but this smacks a little of selectorial cowardice.

[Gooseberry]

I trhink you could argue it smacks of bravery more than cowardice, rather than try and bed in a "safe" option in Taylor they gone for broke by giving more time to Roy and Billings, one of whome would be making way for him to be in the side now, and both when Root retruns.
Theres certainly no argument that Root is the first name on team sheet is there?

Id forgotten about Ballance as well, he really seems to have fallen out of favour quickly. Again spots are perhaps limited for out and out batsmen in the current ODI side ...but his fall from grace in all formats has been pretty rapid.

[king_carlos]

Moeen in for Billings at 7 and Taylor in for Root at 3. Woakes also returns.

1.Hales
2.Roy
3.Taylor
4.Morgan
5.Stokes
6.Buttler (wk)
7.Ali
8.Rashid
9.Woakes
10.Wood
11.Finn

I'm very happy with that side. A much deserved second chance for Taylor in his best batting position.

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