This should make for some interesting erm debates....

Why only FOUR England players would get into Warren Gatland's Wales XV.... Andy Howell's World Cup verdict.

What do you all reckon ? Is Andy Howell correct, or is he blowing hot air again, you've go to give it to the man though, is optimism has no limits.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/only-four-england-players-would-9926332

To save people having to giving clicks to that rag, here is the composite team versus their counterparts:

15 Leigh Halfpenny (Wales) > Mike Brown

14 Anthony Watson (England) > Alex Cuthbert

13 Jonathan Joseph (England) > Scott Williams

12 Jamie Roberts (Wales) > Brad Barritt

11 George North (Wales) > Jack Nowell

10 Dan Biggar (Wales) > George Ford

9 Rhys Webb (Wales) > Ben Youngs

1 Gethin Jenkins (Wales) > Joe Marler

2 Scott Baldwin (Wales) > Tom Youngs

3 David Wilson (England) > Samson Lee

4 Joe Launchbury (England) > Luke Charteris

5 Alun Wyn Jones (Wales) > Courtney Lawes

6 Dan Lydiate (Wales) > Tom Wood

7 Sam Warburton (Wales) > Chris Robshaw

8 Taulupe Faletau (Wales) > Billy Vunipola

It's one more than before the 6N when England won so looks promising for the World Cup

Meh, I can see his point. That team COULD be argued as being the best, but you could also argue a team with the number of players the other way round. Interesting that he went for Wilson ahead of Cole and Launchbury ahead of Lawes. In fact it's also interesting he went for North and not Williams.

Personally I don't think Biggar is better than Ford or Farrell.

It could be argues that the following is also a good team. Wouldn't sell many papers in Wales though...

15. Brown
14. Watson
13. Joseph
12. Roberts
11. Williams
10. Farrell
9. Youngs
1. Jenkins
2. Baldwin
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola

Only 5 Wales players (shock!)

What all this really shows is that apart from at hooker (England's aren't very good), prop (England have a 3 and Wales a 1), inside centre (Roberts) and lock (one each), the Wales and England first 15 are fairly well matched and you could take anyone. I think if you did a full 23 it would probably be about 50-50.

Oh wait, sorry, I was meant to respond "LOL no way, England FTW, Wales are crap!" wasn't I?

I don't think this is worth a sensible response, but there is a general tendency in a publication such as this to measure the Welsh side by their performances at their absolute peak of form and the opposition at their worst.

It is a team game though and England have had 2 comfortable wins home and away vs Wales in their last two meetings. Right now England have had two indifferent performances vs France and a Welsh 2nd team had a tough time in their first game also. We'll get a better idea of where the teams are at after the games this weekend and next.

Posted this on one of the England threads, the one that I found most amusing was Jenkins over Marler, based on Gethin having been on more Lions tours

Too much national pride in his assertions.

Gethin is a past great. He's been mauled in the scrum for the last 2 years giving away penalty after penalty. Even though they don't face each other Marler is far superior now.

Hooker, to be fair I think its a race to the bottom in both sides... who can be worse.

The lineout isn't a good balance. Its either Launchbury or Jones not combined. It would be Lawes vs. Charteris and I'd probably nudge towards Lawes albeit Charteris improves Wales no end.

Backrow - They were pretty much annihilated by England in the 6N, Faletau yes. Warburton vs. Robshaw... its debatable but I'd rather have Robshaw than Lydiate thats for sure.

10s.... who turns up on the day but Ford is a superior footballer but has his own problems. I'd take Farrell over Biggar mind.

Halfpenny, Watson, Joseph, Roberts, North (although is he fit), Farrell, Webb, Faletau, Warburton, Robshaw, Lawes, Launchbury, Cole, anyone's guess, Marler.

So 6 Welsh for me, 8 English and 1 who knows.

Marshes wrote:To save people having to giving clicks to that rag, here is the composite team versus their counterparts:

15 Leigh Halfpenny (Wales) > Mike Brown

14 Anthony Watson (England) > Alex Cuthbert

13 Jonathan Joseph (England) > Scott Williams

12 Jamie Roberts (Wales) > Brad Barritt

11 George North (Wales) > Jack Nowell

10 Dan Biggar (Wales) > George Ford

9 Rhys Webb (Wales) > Ben Youngs

1 Gethin Jenkins (Wales) > Joe Marler

2 Scott Baldwin (Wales) >  Tom Youngs

3 David Wilson (England) > Samson Lee

4 Joe Launchbury (England) > Luke Charteris

5 Alun Wyn Jones (Wales) > Courtney Lawes

6 Dan Lydiate (Wales) > Tom Wood

7 Sam Warburton (Wales) > Chris Robshaw

8 Taulupe Faletau (Wales) > Billy Vunipola

My bold selections are where I feel the upper hand should be reversed. George Ford is probably one of the best stand off's in the NH right now.

I also think Welsh people need to let go of Gethin Jenkins being as good as he was. Just let go.

He's not.

I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Don't understand why James continues to be his understudy... Gethin looks like Phil Taylor these days.

Will Walesonline do similar articles for all of their group opponents? (Can't wait to see them try to justify Halfpenny vs Folau- but I'm sure it will be for the same reasons as vs Brown - the kicking...)

If you had Halfpenny to kick the goals, Ford's goal kicking isn't an issue and he's the best fly half in open play of the three for me

I must admit I've never thought of AWJ as much more than the best of an average bunch for Wales, there have been far superior locks available for the Lions imo

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Would you keep him over POC?

fa0019 wrote:Too much national pride in his assertions.

Gethin is a past great. He's been mauled in the scrum for the last 2 years giving away penalty after penalty. Even though they don't face each other Marler is far superior now.

Hooker, to be fair I think its a race to the bottom in both sides... who can be worse.

The lineout isn't a good balance. Its either Launchbury or Jones not combined. It would be Lawes vs. Charteris and I'd probably nudge towards Lawes albeit Charteris improves Wales no end.

Backrow - They were pretty much annihilated by England in the 6N, Faletau yes. Warburton vs. Robshaw... its debatable but I'd rather have Robshaw than Lydiate thats for sure.

10s.... who turns up on the day but Ford is a superior footballer but has his own problems. I'd take Farrell over Biggar mind.

Halfpenny, Watson, Joseph, Roberts, North (although is he fit), Farrell, Webb, Faletau, Warburton, Robshaw, Lawes, Launchbury, Cole, anyone's guess, Marler.

So 6 Welsh for me, 8 English and 1 who knows.

This.

He has cost us the last two games against England

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Actually I did ponder that for a while. I suppose I'm looking long term as AWJ is pushing on....but in saying that, there are few guys in your team you could look to and depend on in the heat of battle, and Jones' is defo one of them.

Ok you've convinced me.....consider them swapped back

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Actually I did ponder that for a while. I suppose I'm looking long term as AWJ is pushing on....but in saying that, there are few guys in your team you could look to and depend on in the heat of battle, and Jones' is defo one of them.

Ok you've convinced me.....consider them swapped back

Jones is 29 (OK 30 in September). He could make the next RWC

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Actually I did ponder that for a while. I suppose I'm looking long term as AWJ is pushing on....but in saying that, there are few guys in your team you could look to and depend on in the heat of battle, and Jones' is defo one of them.

Ok you've convinced me.....consider them swapped back

Crying at the anthems is one thing...but in the big games AWJ does tend to go a little quiet IMO. At least givent he hype you expect more from him. The genuine great front man locks of the pro era i.e. POC, Bakkies, Johnson, Shaw, Retallick seem to up their game in most fierce situations. AWJ is simply not in that category.

Had Gatland not been Lions coach there is no way he would have had the captains armband, may not have even made the 23 (Gray).

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Would you keep him over POC?

Yes.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Would you keep him over POC?

Yes.

Is your name Andy Howell?

fair enough jokes aside.

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Retallick, Whitelock, Etzebeth, POC, ... none of them?

"anybody"

fa0019 wrote:Crying at the anthems is one thing...but in the big games AWJ does tend to go a little quiet IMO. At least givent he hype you expect more from him. The genuine great front man locks of the pro era i.e. POC, Bakkies, Johnson, Shaw, Retallick seem to up their game in most fierce situations. AWJ is simply not in that category.

Had Gatland not been Lions coach there is no way he would have had the captains armband, may not have even made the 23 (Gray).

I honestly believe that you have never paid that much attention to him then, if he is picked this weekend, just watch him. He will be in the middle of every maul, he will hit the rucks and clean out, our scrum goes up about 20% with him in the boiler house, and he is always communicating with the referees, the man is just everywhere. I think it was Shane Williams who called him a freak for the way he is so committed to the cause, and none of the Gray brothers would start in front of him, for any team.

Etzebeth is on par with AWJ for me... I'm not a fan, he's big and strong but can easily go missing in matches and concentrate on one on one battles which is a negative trait. Launchbury, Retallick, POC, are all better IMO. Etzebeth can supersede them but he's too much of a hot head, too lacking in the brains department.. not sure if he can fix that.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Crying at the anthems is one thing...but in the big games AWJ does tend to go a little quiet IMO. At least givent he hype you expect more from him. The genuine great front man locks of the pro era i.e. POC, Bakkies, Johnson, Shaw, Retallick seem to up their game in most fierce situations. AWJ is simply not in that category.

Had Gatland not been Lions coach there is no way he would have had the captains armband, may not have even made the 23 (Gray).

I honestly believe that you have never paid that much attention to him then, if he is picked this weekend, just watch him. He will be in the middle of every maul, he will hit the rucks and clean out, our scrum goes up about 20% with him in the boiler house, and he is always communicating with the referees, the man is just everywhere. I think it was Shane Williams who called him a freak for the way he is so committed to the cause, and none of the Gray brothers would start in front of him, for any team.

I've heard how every says he's 100% in training yes. But in big games... no. Personally I'd rather have Charteris who I rate highly. Scrum always improves when he's in it, Lineout is much more assured and in mauls he's like an Orangutan.

England must just play better as a team rather than relying on 'World Class' individuals throughout the Welsh side. I'm fine with that.

Should be enough to beat Wales (again).

Biggar might edge it because of his shouting. World class shouter. Rugby - not so much.

fa0019 wrote:Etzebeth is on par with AWJ for me... I'm not a fan, he's big and strong but can easily go missing in matches and concentrate on one on one battles which is a negative trait. Launchbury, Retallick, POC, are all better IMO. Etzebeth can supersede them but he's too much of a hot head, too lacking in the brains department.. not sure if he can fix that.

Ok, now I know you have not been watching him, AWJ is the exact opposite of a hot head. In fact, that might be his worst trait, he can be too passive, but he is always the first to any ruck, and he controls the line out well.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Etzebeth is on par with AWJ for me... I'm not a fan, he's big and strong but can easily go missing in matches and concentrate on one on one battles which is a negative trait. Launchbury, Retallick, POC, are all better IMO. Etzebeth can supersede them but he's too much of a hot head, too lacking in the brains department.. not sure if he can fix that.

Ok, now I know you have not been watching him, AWJ is the exact opposite of a hot head. In fact, that might be his worst trait, he can be too passive, but he is always the first to any ruck, and he controls the line out well.

I was talking about Etzebeth not AWJ. All I said was that Etzebeth is a notch down from the top tier where I would personally place AWJ.

fa0019 wrote:I was talking about Etzebeth not AWJ. All I said was that Etzebeth is a notch down from the top tier where I would personally place AWJ.

Sorry, I must have read your post wrong.

It is also worth pointing out that the importance of AWJ to Wales in all of the things he does for them does make him more valuable for them than the alternatives. Doesn't mean he is a better player necessarily, just more valuable as part of Wales' team.

lostinwales wrote:It is also worth pointing out that the importance of AWJ to Wales in all of the things he does for them does make him more valuable for them than the alternatives. Doesn't mean he is a better player necessarily, just more valuable as part of Wales' team.

I do not agree with you very often, but this I can agree with.

Wyn Jones does have a galvanising effect on the team when he is there. He hits his rucks and makes his tackles.

He also carries quite well, and has improved this area of his game. However, he is nowhere near Retallick, Whitelock or De Jaeger (whom I rate highly) when it comes to his impact with ball in hand which is why he is not better than any of them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3210650/Sir-Clive-Woodward-agony-wielding-World-Cup-axe-drop-final-said-Mike-Catt.html

I think this article is relevant. How many of either side can say they are in the top 3 in the world in their position? Not many in my view

As someone I know on another board recently pointed out - this boy Howell recently suggested that Justin Tipuric should switch to centre. Not really someone I'm going to be taking seriously.

Well if I was blending the two teams then I think this is the best team. There are some combo's from the Wales team I can't break up though because I think they're too darn good... I'm sure some England fans would swap them for their English combo's. And every good team needs two kickers .

Williams, Halfpenny, Joseph, Roberts, Watson, Biggar, Webb, Vunipola, Warburton, Robshaw, Charteris, AWJ, Wilson, Hartley, Marler. Yes I realise I've included Hartley.

fa0019 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I am with you on the Gethin Jenkins point, but I would not swap AWJ for anybody.

Would you keep him over POC?

Just pair them together. Them and some others would be considered before Gray though. You need to watch more rugby outside of SATV.

fa0019 wrote:Too much national pride in his assertions.

Gethin is a past great. He's been mauled in the scrum for the last 2 years giving away penalty after penalty. Even though they don't face each other Marler is far superior now.

Hooker, to be fair I think its a race to the bottom in both sides... who can be worse.

The lineout isn't a good balance. Its either Launchbury or Jones not combined. It would be Lawes vs. Charteris and I'd probably nudge towards Lawes albeit Charteris improves Wales no end.

Backrow - They were pretty much annihilated by England in the 6N, Faletau yes. Warburton vs. Robshaw... its debatable but I'd rather have Robshaw than Lydiate thats for sure.

10s.... who turns up on the day but Ford is a superior footballer but has his own problems. I'd take Farrell over Biggar mind.

Halfpenny, Watson, Joseph, Roberts, North (although is he fit), Farrell, Webb, Faletau, Warburton, Robshaw, Lawes, Launchbury, Cole, anyone's guess, Marler.

So 6 Welsh for me, 8 English and 1 who knows.

Again, not sure what you've been watching? Gethin has only struggled against England (though to be fair any Welsh team struggles with any French ref officiating). If it was just them you were referring to then you should have specified. James is third choice for me for being nothing more than a walking, haymaking, overhyped penalty machine.

I'd be the first to admit when our back-row was poor, but I don't ever remember them being annihilated - not by anyone. When we last played England they had the stone age tactics completely figured out by the end of the second half, that was the deciding factor. We didn't really improve until the third game of the tournament.

Can't see how Webb should've ranked over Young's and care. He's behind both and is on parr with wigglesworth.

Classic rhetoric from Howell. Altho suprised he chose Watson over his beloved Cuthbert. Remember him last autumn giving Cuthbert and Savea the same marks out of ten...