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Where now for George Groves?

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Post by mark_england Sun 13 Sep 2015, 1:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Can't really argue the decision last night, 116-111 perhaps slightly wide, but was nothing like a robbery, so where does he go now?

He comes across as having unbelievable confidence and self belief, but I am starting to think those defeats to Carl Froch might have taken something away from him mentally, 1 more defeat in a world title fight I'd be worried for him, especially if it was to be against Degale.

Would like to see him back with Adam Booth too, I think he would have won the first fight with Froch had Booth been in charge, and last night I think Booth would have changed things in the fight that PF just allowed to continue.

What way will his career go now, and do people think he's good enough to win a world title, because despite one contreversial attempt, he's of course had 3 world title fights and lost them all...

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Post by Rowley Mon 14 Sep 2015, 10:56 am

Suspect you are right DH, Groves does seem to have an opinion of himself somewhat in disproportion to his talents or acheivements.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Sep 2015, 12:20 pm

Still think a brutal knockout can change a fighter subconsciously If not consciously.....When I first came here I got sloshed on advocaat at a party and was ill for a couple of days....

Twenty years later just looking at a bottle of the stuff makes my body recoil...

Fact is I don't think whether Groves knows it or not...He's recovered mentally from that right hand..

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Post by wheelchair1991 Mon 14 Sep 2015, 12:35 pm

Groves says he won the fight against Jack "decisively".

Not the way I saw it

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Post by milkyboy Mon 14 Sep 2015, 12:45 pm

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Still think a brutal knockout can change a fighter subconsciously If not consciously.....When I first came here I got sloshed on advocaat at a party and was ill for a couple of days....

Twenty years later just looking at a bottle of the stuff makes my body recoil...

Fact is I don't think whether Groves knows it or not...He's recovered mentally from that right hand..

Were they all out of babysham?

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Sep 2015, 1:16 pm

It was a poshy washy party......and I've always liked custard anyway.

Seriously though It was like Zombie Holocaust for the next two days and I got very little sympathy...

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Post by milkyboy Mon 14 Sep 2015, 1:40 pm

I had a pint of whisky and ginger on my 21st birthday... Or so I'm told as I still have no recollection of the evening. I believe it to be true, as even a whiff of the stuff 20+ years on and my stomach still curdles. I'm sure if I got sparked by carl froch, I'd feel the same every time he pulled back his right hand in the future!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Sep 2015, 1:45 pm

Know the feeling well.

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Post by DuransHorse Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:00 pm

milkyboy wrote:I had a pint of whisky and ginger on my 21st birthday... Or so I'm told as I still have no recollection of the evening. I believe it to be true, as even a whiff of the stuff 20+ years on and my stomach still curdles. I'm sure if I got sparked by carl froch, I'd feel the same every time he pulled back his right hand in the future!

Whisky and ginger? Why would someone do that? We've already proven that ginger ruins beer, no further testing is required.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:03 pm

Milky had already tried Whiskey and red apparently..

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Post by milkyboy Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:09 pm

DuransHorse wrote:
milkyboy wrote:I had a pint of whisky and ginger on my 21st birthday... Or so I'm told as I still have no recollection of the evening. I believe it to be true, as even a whiff of the stuff 20+ years on and my stomach still curdles. I'm sure if I got sparked by carl froch, I'd feel the same every time he pulled back his right hand in the future!

Whisky and ginger? Why would someone do that? We've already proven that ginger ruins beer, no further testing is required.

I quite agree. If it was like any of my friends 21st's DH (like I say, I can't recall any of it), the lucky 'birthday boy' didn't have much say in the choice of beverage.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:25 pm

If you can remember the sixties or milkyboy's 21st you have never lived..

Which reminds me I remember about 20 yrs ago passing some nerdy kid a pint of something at a party and then leaving with his chick half an hour later..

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Post by DuransHorse Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:25 pm

milkyboy wrote:
DuransHorse wrote:
milkyboy wrote:I had a pint of whisky and ginger on my 21st birthday... Or so I'm told as I still have no recollection of the evening. I believe it to be true, as even a whiff of the stuff 20+ years on and my stomach still curdles. I'm sure if I got sparked by carl froch, I'd feel the same every time he pulled back his right hand in the future!

Whisky and ginger? Why would someone do that? We've already proven that ginger ruins beer, no further testing is required.

I quite agree. If it was like any of my friends 21st's DH (like I say, I can't recall any of it), the lucky 'birthday boy' didn't have much say in the choice of beverage.

I had a similar experience with JD's at the student union price of 50p a shot. I got so bad I missed my following mornings lectures and was trying (staggering) to get to the afternoons until I was stopped by my mates and told I was drunk and needed to go home to bed.

That alone put me off JD but the nail in the coffin was when I was working with a new group for a project over a year later. One of them said:

Them: "We can see if Jo has a group yet. You know big fat Jo-Jo don't you?".

Me: "No?"

Them: "Yeah you do. Big fat Jo-Jo. You and her got it on last year at the union. We had to put you in a taxi home from our flat".

Me: "Oh...my...god!"

Evil drink!!

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:27 pm

The name Jo Jo worries me..

But good to see others have followed me down Zombie Avenue..

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Post by milkyboy Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:44 pm

DuransHorse wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
DuransHorse wrote:
milkyboy wrote:I had a pint of whisky and ginger on my 21st birthday... Or so I'm told as I still have no recollection of the evening. I believe it to be true, as even a whiff of the stuff 20+ years on and my stomach still curdles. I'm sure if I got sparked by carl froch, I'd feel the same every time he pulled back his right hand in the future!

Whisky and ginger? Why would someone do that? We've already proven that ginger ruins beer, no further testing is required.

I quite agree. If it was like any of my friends 21st's DH (like I say, I can't recall any of it), the lucky 'birthday boy' didn't have much say in the choice of beverage.

I had a similar experience with JD's at the student union price of 50p a shot.  I got so bad I missed my following mornings lectures and was trying (staggering) to get to the afternoons until I was stopped by my mates and told I was drunk and needed to go home to bed.

That alone put me off JD but the nail in the coffin was when I was working with a new group for a project over a year later. One of them said:

Them:  "We can see if Jo has a group yet.  You know big fat Jo-Jo don't you?".

Me:  "No?"

Them:  "Yeah you do.  Big fat Jo-Jo.  You and her got it on last year at the union.  We had to put you in a taxi home from our flat".

Me:  "Oh...my...god!"

Evil drink!!

Man blames drink for sh*gging a porker. Admit it. You like a larger lady.

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Post by DuransHorse Mon 14 Sep 2015, 2:48 pm

milkyboy wrote:
DuransHorse wrote:
milkyboy wrote:
DuransHorse wrote:
milkyboy wrote:I had a pint of whisky and ginger on my 21st birthday... Or so I'm told as I still have no recollection of the evening. I believe it to be true, as even a whiff of the stuff 20+ years on and my stomach still curdles. I'm sure if I got sparked by carl froch, I'd feel the same every time he pulled back his right hand in the future!

Whisky and ginger? Why would someone do that? We've already proven that ginger ruins beer, no further testing is required.

I quite agree. If it was like any of my friends 21st's DH (like I say, I can't recall any of it), the lucky 'birthday boy' didn't have much say in the choice of beverage.

I had a similar experience with JD's at the student union price of 50p a shot.  I got so bad I missed my following mornings lectures and was trying (staggering) to get to the afternoons until I was stopped by my mates and told I was drunk and needed to go home to bed.

That alone put me off JD but the nail in the coffin was when I was working with a new group for a project over a year later. One of them said:

Them:  "We can see if Jo has a group yet.  You know big fat Jo-Jo don't you?".

Me:  "No?"

Them:  "Yeah you do.  Big fat Jo-Jo.  You and her got it on last year at the union.  We had to put you in a taxi home from our flat".

Me:  "Oh...my...god!"

Evil drink!!

Man blames drink for sh*gging a porker. Admit it. You like a larger lady.

Well, I guess I 'tolerate' my wife so that's kind of the same thing.

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Post by Seanusarrilius Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:24 pm

I see Groves cancelled his twitter. Seems he is taking this loss very badly. DeGale was reveling in his loss. Groves needs to take a long holiday and then look for a new trainer. Not blaming Paddy entirely, but Groves doesn't fight to his strengths any more. Maybe he just won't listen, in which case, he should train himself.

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Post by AdamT Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:34 pm

You would think Groves had Calzaghe type talent, the way some are posting.


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Post by Coxy001 Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:45 pm

For me Groves was just a good euro level fighter who met Froch when the Cobra was on his way out and got made to look better than he was, to a certain degree. The arrogant toss monkey is deserving of his recent failures in my eyes, used to like him (mainly when he beat Degale) but in recent times he's wound me (and others by the sounds of it) up the wrong way.


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Post by DuransHorse Tue 15 Sep 2015, 1:49 pm

AdamT wrote:You would think Groves had Calzaghe type talent, the way some are posting.


Saying he's not making the most of his talents is not the same as saying he would otherwise be the next Calzaghe.

However, he's got more to his game than throwing hundreds of wild bombs in the hope one pays off, all the while only having a 15% connection success rate. Now that was a waste of his talents.

Throwing his toys out of the pram over this loss is like walking out of an exam because you don't think the questions are fair. Rather than knuckle down and learn for next time he's decided to be ignorant and bury his head.

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Post by milkyboy Tue 15 Sep 2015, 2:13 pm

The defeat has only just happened, let's see what his reaction is like when he's had a cooling off period. 

He wound froch and degale up, two of the biggest jerks in boxing. That was a good enough reason for me to like him. It's all relative though, I'm not sure I do actually like him.

His fights are normally exciting though and he gives it a go, I hope he dusts himself off, has a long hard look in the mirror and comes back a better fighter.

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Post by AdamT Tue 15 Sep 2015, 2:18 pm

I think he is done at the top level. Truth is I could care less about him.

He was a decent fighter, but damaged goods. Degale would beat him no problem now. I scored the first fight to De Gale as well.

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Post by Nico the gman Tue 15 Sep 2015, 2:23 pm

Seanusarrilius wrote:I see Groves cancelled his twitter. Seems he is taking this loss very badly. DeGale was reveling in his loss. Groves needs to take a long holiday and then look for a new trainer. Not blaming Paddy entirely, but Groves doesn't fight to his strengths any more. Maybe he just won't listen, in which case, he should train himself.
There's a shock personality of the year Degale revelling in Groves loss, you never know if Degale keeps winning he may acquire some fans and become likeable, or even half fill a stadium, I wont hold my breath though.

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Post by Nico the gman Tue 15 Sep 2015, 2:37 pm

I personally think you will see Groves and Fitzpatrick part way's in the coming weeks.

Plenty of good coaches and trainers who would be willing to take a chance on Groves, he just needs to go back to what he was doing when he was successfully winning fights comfortably.

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Post by Seanusarrilius Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:03 pm

Groves is wasting his talent. he's not the best talent in the division but I think he should have had enough to beat jack. number one issue for me is that he doesn't set up his punches any more, which negates his power.

I do think he is childish to close his twitter. He is probably taking some flack, but rather than delete it he should just turn it off for a while, IMO. He has 200k followers. Doesn't look very good. Groves has managed his career himself these last two years. He was part of the biggest British fight in decades, but he also seems on the brink of obscurity now.


Where to now? Personally I would target AA, who is utterly shot and someone he can beat. Then he can come to the table with DeGale and make that rematch, which he will lose

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Post by 88Chris05 Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:49 pm

'Tis a strange twist of fate, but in some ways I think it's now Groves' turn to learn the lessons he forced Degale to learn when he beat him a few years back.

Much like Degale in 2011, the perception of Groves now seems to be that he's talking a good game but not really following it up, annoying people with his delusions. Like Degale back then, Groves needs to wind his neck in a bit - and that's just for starters.

After the Groves-Degale fight Degale was telling anyone who'd listen that he'd won the fight and that he felt he'd put on a top performance, rather than acknowledging that he'd made mistakes and that he maybe needed to work on more things than he previously believed. Interestingly, Booth and Groves (more Booth, in fairness, but not solely him) made the point in the aftermath that it was precisely that kind of stubborn, can't-be-told attitude that contributed to Degale losing the fight in the first place, and that it'd cause him more problems in the future if he didn't shed it.

The shoe is on the other foot now. You generally expect a fighter who has lost any relatively close decision to hint that they thought they won it, but surely Groves can't believe that he won the fight "decisively" as he says, if indeed he really believes he won it at all? Storming out of the ring immediately afterwards without giving a post-fight interview also doesn't suggest a guy willing to face the music properly, albeit you can give him a pass on that, I guess, as a fighter's adrenaline and emotions are all over the shop straight after battle and they're unlikely to be thinking as clearly as they normally would, particularly if the result has been a disappointing one.

Maybe it's all front (he's got more of it than Blackpool, after all), but if Groves really is trying to delude himself in to thinking he's been the victim of an injustice he's not giving himself the best chance to avoid more disappointment further down the line.

The other point which has relevance to the Groves-Degale fight is the debate around Fiztpatrick's role. There's a belief growing that he's really just a glorified strength and conditioning guy who can't keep an ego-driven, rush-of-blood kind of person like Groves in check, and who is too much of a yes man; again, exactly the kind of thing being said about Jim McDonnell a while back. There were calls for Degale to ditch Jim - he didn't, and Degale's recent success vindicates that.

If Groves genuinely believes that Paddy is the right man for him, he should look at the rewards Degale has reaped by staying loyal to McDonnell and find a way to make it work. I think it's hard to judge Fitzpatrick right now as he doesn't have any other high-profile charges to compare with, and as others have said he's been chucked in at the deep end somewhat, with Groves jumping from Euro-level fighters and / or journeymen to Froch and the subsequent setbacks.

Groves shouldn't be panicking just yet, but it's time for him to exercise a bit of humility now, like Degale eventually did. No more 'I'm nobody's lady of loose morals and all the promoter's want me, let's try to create a mind game here where there isn't one, Froch was too scared to fight me again because he knows he got lucky twice, blah blah blah' stuff. He's not the name on everyone's lips anymore and he's fallen back in the pecking order at 168 - but at just 27, and with so many mandatory positions for different belts only a couple of wins away, there's no reason why he can't be back near the front of the queue soon if he knuckles down and takes an honest look at himself. I think he maybe has become a bit too full of himself and, as others have said, maybe become a bit obsessed with his power in light of the shellacking he gave Froch for six or seven rounds. Time to get back to basics.
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Post by milkyboy Tue 15 Sep 2015, 3:59 pm

How many top trainers would be prepared to work in the manner of the relationship he has with fitzpatrick. Bluntly, the 'big name' guys would all be after a larger share of the spoils.

Is part of the problem that Groves thinks he can train himself with someone like fitzpatrick as a glorified bagman? I'm not demeaning paddy here... more picking up what groves said, when he was implying about him knowing himself best when he left booth.

Ultimately, we're all second guessing.

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Post by shenglong2015 Tue 15 Sep 2015, 4:47 pm

What about Groves Vs Martin Murray?

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Post by Seanusarrilius Tue 15 Sep 2015, 6:01 pm

I don't see the Murray fight happening right now. Cross stable and nothing really in it for Murray at this time. Groves needs to drop down a level, get two or three wins, then go for a belt. Mind you, he was off for 9 months before this fight. Strange how this has devastated him when two KO losses to Froch didn't seem to dint his confidence

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Post by Happytravelling Tue 15 Sep 2015, 6:18 pm

Truss, I agree some fighters are never the same after a bad ko but it manifests itself as a lack of confidence.

That isn't something you can accuse Groves of. He certainly wasn't shy to hang his chin out against jack.

I think his issue is a corner that doesn't suit him.

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Post by TRUSSMAN66 Tue 15 Sep 2015, 6:57 pm

Can be a subconscious thing...and also knockouts can age you....

The difference in Curry v McCallum and Curry v Rosi was stark..

But who knows..

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Post by AdamT Tue 15 Sep 2015, 7:30 pm

Funny you mention Curry. Was watching his fight with McCrory last night.

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