PRO12 has new Managing Director and he isn't Irish :D :yahoo:

First topic message reminder :

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Or maybe, just maybe everyone decided to pitch their hat into the ring and see what happened

Are all teams eligible?

Well considering they were all asked to tender for it that would mean they were

Marty, because the criteria has never been made public, none of us will never know.

Sure if we had facts then we wouldn't have these conspiracy theories. Where would be the fun in that?

SecretFly wrote: Pro12 isn't that important.

That is exactly what is wrong with our league, because the Irish have that attitude towards it. You would rather play in the scraps from the table that the Franglos have thrown us and use the league as a development tool.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I despair with this I really do.

OK 7&1/2, as an outsider to our league, do you think that us Welsh have a point about the IRFU paying both the players and Irish officials and all the CEO's of the provinces ect, then having the same officials that come under the same umbrella as the players et all, officiating those same players ?

No. I think it's a bit far fetched to be honest. If a ref supports Scarlets and Wales don't let them ref them as would be the same in any sport. Payment from the central body wouldn't overly bother me, it's just paper work. If you think Lacey is biased against such and such now it's unlikely a different name at the top of his wage slip will change that.

So it would not bother you if Wayne Barnes trained with Leicester, and all the Leicester players and Wayne Barnes got paid by the RFU, and then Wayne Barnes was put in charge of Saracens and Northampton which could decide who finishes in the playoffs as Leicester only need a point or two to catch Saracens would you be happy with that ? Because this is what we have to put up with. An official who is too close to the people he is supposed to be officiating and getting paid by the same people.

So it only matters when ALL the players are paid by the same organisation?

marty2086 wrote:So it only matters when ALL the players are paid by the same organisation?

Where have I said that ?

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Pro12 isn't that important.

That is exactly what is wrong with our league, because the Irish have that attitude towards it. You would rather play in the scraps from the table that the Franglos have thrown us and use the league as a development tool.

Hold on, Fly's election as our spokesman has yet to ratified!

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So it only matters when ALL the players are paid by the same organisation?

Where have I said that ?

'So it would not bother you if Wayne Barnes trained with Leicester, and all the Leicester players and Wayne Barnes got paid by the RFU'

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So it only matters when ALL the players are paid by the same organisation?

Where have I said that ?

'So it would not bother you if Wayne Barnes trained with Leicester, and all the Leicester players and Wayne Barnes got paid by the RFU'

That was just an example. Anyway, don't all the Irish players get paid by the IRFU ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

OK. Fair enough point there that the Enlgish and French are strong, will good money and likely to try and increase this. Why on earth would a business want to become a charity to the Pro 12 to stop this? If they did surely BT would just come in with a massive money offer for the Pr 12 rights alone?

Because they know the Pro12 is rubbish. I'd love to see the viewing figures on sky. They must be awful.

They know a British & Irish League would be the greatest league in the world bar none.

Anyway, I'm done. Ta Ta.

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Pro12 isn't that important.

That is exactly what is wrong with our league, because the Irish have that attitude towards it. You would rather play in the scraps from the table that the Franglos have thrown us and use the league as a development tool.

It ain't. It's nice to have it. But if it gets airs and graces about itself and begins to try to act like a National Union (or European Union) then I'll easily say 'stuff it'. You can quote me there, Lord I ain't shy.
And we have plenty evidence that most high rollers in Welsh rugby think the very same thing as it was lots of them who threatened to leave it a short while ago, not us.

So again history comes home to roost - the Welsh put the middle finger up to Pro12 much more directly than the Irish ever have.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

OK. Fair enough point there that the Enlgish and French are strong, will good money and likely to try and increase this. Why on earth would a business want to become a charity to the Pro 12 to stop this? If they did surely BT would just come in with a massive money offer for the Pr 12 rights alone?

Because they know the Pro12 is rubbish. I'd love to see the viewing figures on sky. They must be awful.

They know a British & Irish League would be the greatest league in the world bar none.

Why? Because the Irish and English finally joined up?

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Pro12 isn't that important.

That is exactly what is wrong with our league, because the Irish have that attitude towards it. You would rather play in the scraps from the table that the Franglos have thrown us and use the league as a development tool.

It ain't.  It's nice to have it.  But if it gets airs and graces about itself and begins to try to act like a National Union (or European Union) then I'll easily say 'stuff it'.  You can quote me there, Lord  I ain't shy.
And we have plenty evidence that most high rollers in Welsh rugby think the very same thing as it was lots of them who threatened to leave it a short while ago, not us.  

So again history comes home to roost - the Welsh put the middle finger up to Pro12 much more directly than the Irish ever have.

In fact it was everyone else who had to make changes because of the situation the Welsh helped create

marty2086 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

SecretFly wrote: Pro12 isn't that important.

That is exactly what is wrong with our league, because the Irish have that attitude towards it. You would rather play in the scraps from the table that the Franglos have thrown us and use the league as a development tool.

Hold on, Fly's election as our spokesman has yet to ratified!

I'd refuse the role.  Trying to keep DOD and Sin under the whip would be too tough for me.  Me nerves, they'd go.

Well Barnes does train with clubs he lives near for a start, as do all refs. They have that 2 way conversation and will work with any club who asks them to go through how they interpret the rules and what the refs have been told to look for that season, month, day. The payment as I say doesn't bother me. I would be delighted as a rival if Barnes was reffing as I think he's excellent and I'd know he would play it straight. That wouldn't change if he was paid by the RFU and Sarries also were owned by the RFU etc. If you don't trust the refs now and think they're biased against your team I doubt you'll change your opinion.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

OK. Fair enough point there that the Enlgish and French are strong, will good money and likely to try and increase this. Why on earth would a business want to become a charity to the Pro 12 to stop this? If they did surely BT would just come in with a massive money offer for the Pr 12 rights alone?

Because they know the Pro12 is rubbish. I'd love to see the viewing figures on sky. They must be awful.

They know a British & Irish League would be the greatest league in the world bar none.

Why would it? You'd also have to factor in the loss of some money for Europe as that would clearly be of a lower value.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

OK. Fair enough point there that the Enlgish and French are strong, will good money and likely to try and increase this. Why on earth would a business want to become a charity to the Pro 12 to stop this? If they did surely BT would just come in with a massive money offer for the Pr 12 rights alone?

Because they know the Pro12 is rubbish. I'd love to see the viewing figures on sky. They must be awful.

They know a British & Irish League would be the greatest league in the world bar none.

Why would it? You'd also have to factor in the loss of some money for Europe as that would clearly be of a lower value.

Who would lose money for Europe?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Barnes does train with clubs he lives near for a start, as do all refs. They have that 2 way conversation and will work with any club who asks them to go through how they interpret the rules and what the refs have been told to look for that season, month, day.

Nuff said as the saying goes. Lord knows this. I distinctly remember reading an article a few years ago where Nigel (him again!) openly talked about training with.. I think it was Ospreys.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

OK. Fair enough point there that the Enlgish and French are strong, will good money and likely to try and increase this. Why on earth would a business want to become a charity to the Pro 12 to stop this? If they did surely BT would just come in with a massive money offer for the Pr 12 rights alone?

Because they know the Pro12 is rubbish. I'd love to see the viewing figures on sky. They must be awful.

They know a British & Irish League would be the greatest league in the world bar none.

Why would it? You'd also have to factor in the loss of some money for Europe as that would clearly be of a lower value.

Who would lose money for Europe?

Everyone involved as it becomes less or a spectacle. You'll be seeing the majority of the games in 1 league anyway. But again my question to you was why would a B&I league be the best in the world?

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Barnes does train with clubs he lives near for a start, as do all refs. They have that 2 way conversation and will work with any club who asks them to go through how they interpret the rules and what the refs have been told to look for that season, month, day.

Nuff said as the saying goes.  Lord knows this.  I distinctly remember reading an article a few years ago where Nigel (him again!) openly talked about training with.. I think it was Ospreys.

Ebery ref does, helps both the ref and the players, why wouldn't they?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

OK. Fair enough point there that the Enlgish and French are strong, will good money and likely to try and increase this. Why on earth would a business want to become a charity to the Pro 12 to stop this? If they did surely BT would just come in with a massive money offer for the Pr 12 rights alone?

Because they know the Pro12 is rubbish. I'd love to see the viewing figures on sky. They must be awful.

They know a British & Irish League would be the greatest league in the world bar none.

Why would it? You'd also have to factor in the loss of some money for Europe as that would clearly be of a lower value.

Who would lose money for Europe?

Everyone involved as it becomes less or a spectacle. You'll be seeing the majority of the games in 1 league anyway. But again my question to you was why would a B&I league be the best in the world?

More teams playing more games of a higher quality more frequently.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Everyone involved as it becomes less or a spectacle.

That doesn't eqate to less money at all. There is more £££ in the international game than ever before, and teams are playing each other more than ever before.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

OK. Fair enough point there that the Enlgish and French are strong, will good money and likely to try and increase this. Why on earth would a business want to become a charity to the Pro 12 to stop this? If they did surely BT would just come in with a massive money offer for the Pr 12 rights alone?

Because they know the Pro12 is rubbish. I'd love to see the viewing figures on sky. They must be awful.

They know a British & Irish League would be the greatest league in the world bar none.

Why would it? You'd also have to factor in the loss of some money for Europe as that would clearly be of a lower value.

Who would lose money for Europe?

Everyone involved as it becomes less or a spectacle. You'll be seeing the majority of the games in 1 league anyway. But again my question to you was why would a B&I league be the best in the world?

More teams playing more games of a higher quality more frequently.

Who says?

But you've just said the Pro 12 is rubbish.

ME-109 wrote:

Who says?

The format of the league.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But you've just said the Pro 12 is rubbish.

They'll have to try in this new league.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Everyone involved as it becomes less or a spectacle.

That doesn't eqate to less money at all. There is more £££ in the international game than ever before, and teams are playing each other more than ever before.

Not the same at all. If Europe expanded and became the greatest comp in the world you'd see less interest in internationals as has happened in football.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Who says?

The format of the league.

According to YOU!

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:But you've just said the Pro 12 is rubbish.

They'll have to try in this new league.

Why would the English want them if they don't try. Why would they have to try and who are they?

SecretFly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Barnes does train with clubs he lives near for a start, as do all refs. They have that 2 way conversation and will work with any club who asks them to go through how they interpret the rules and what the refs have been told to look for that season, month, day.

Nuff said as the saying goes.  Lord knows this.  I distinctly remember reading an article a few years ago where Nigel (him again!) openly talked about training with.. I think it was Ospreys.

Nah, the ref who used to train with us was James Jones, Nige used to train with Sca no I can't utter that word

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Everyone involved as it becomes less or a spectacle.

That doesn't eqate to less money at all. There is more £££ in the international game than ever before, and teams are playing each other more than ever before.

Not the same at all. If Europe expanded and became the greatest comp in the world you'd see less interest in internationals as has happened in football.

Why would you see less interest in internationals?

Because Europe and the clubs becomes the thing to watch as has happened in football. If a B&I league was the best thing to watch Europe becomes nothing more of a distraction, less interest, less money.

But you do understand how 'argument for bias accusation' can be understood to mean accusations of cheating, at present?

You would be wrong in thinking that 'I already know' what you mean, because what you mean seems to change with the flow of debate.
You did say that the Pro12 was set up for the Irish, and when I pointing this out to you a few days ago, you claimed that it wasn't meant. That you said it in a moment of frustration. And just a few of your comments up, you make the same accusation, in an apparent change of mind....

So you can understand my not knowing exactly what you mean, as what you mean seems to change with the weather.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Why would the English want them if they don't try. Why would they have to try and who are they?

We've done this before so many times. In a 2 tier league or a conference style - if they want to progress / get promoted / be successful then they'll have to play out of their skin every week. There'll be no zebras. No Trevisos. Stronger teams playign stronger teams.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because Europe and the clubs becomes the thing to watch as has happened in football. If a B&I league was the best thing to watch Europe becomes nothing more of a distraction, less interest, less money.

You're clutchign at straws.

British and Irish League will be the best League.
Europe would be the best cup
Test rugby would still be test rugby.

You're clearly just trying to think of ways to rubbish it. There would be even more interest in European rugby, because the field would start to level again rather than the big French teams dominating.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Why would the English want them if they don't try. Why would they have to try and who are they?

We've done this before so many times. In a 2 tier league or a conference style - if they want to progress / get promoted / be successful then they'll have to play out of their skin every week. There'll be no zebras. No Trevisos. Stronger teams playign stronger teams.

Follow it through why on earth would you want to dilute the strength of the league by dividing in 2 then. Why don't the English just do a deal with Glasgow, Leinster and Munster? Forget the rest as they're so so, Scarlets could maybe have a go if they managed to hoover back some players Why take the rest it makes no sense. That way although English clubs would still be taking a big risk on BT or Sky stumping up another massive rise in cash it offsets it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Why would the English want them if they don't try. Why would they have to try and who are they?

We've done this before so many times. In a 2 tier league or a conference style - if they want to progress / get promoted / be successful then they'll have to play out of their skin every week. There'll be no zebras. No Trevisos. Stronger teams playign stronger teams.

Follow it through why on earth would you want to dilute the strength of the league by dividing in 2 then. Why don't the English just do a deal with Glasgow, Leinster and Munster? Forget the rest as they're so so, Scarlets could maybe have a go if they managed to hoover back some players Why take the rest it makes no sense. That way although English clubs would still be taking a big risk on BT or Sky stumping up another massive rise in cash it offsets it.

Your fighting a losing battle, he has his fantasy and I think we are all best letting him keep it

LordDowlais wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:P.S, I do not want a British and Irish league, I want a Celtic league where ALL teams have parity with each other, and the argument for bias accusation is taken out of it.

Then stop making them.

So is it accusations of 'potential bias' (potential to cheat), or accusations of bias (cheating)?

It has always been potential bias from me as I suspect you already know. I was using accusations of bias because you were telling me there is no such thing as potential bias.

But you do understand how 'argument for bias accusation' can be understood to mean accusations of cheating, at present?

You would be wrong in thinking that 'I already know' what you mean, because what you mean seems to change with the flow of debate.
You did say that the Pro12 was set up for the Irish, and when I pointed this out to you a few days ago, you claimed that it wasn't meant. That you said it in a moment of frustration. And just a few of your comments up, you make the same accusation, in an apparent change of mind....

So you can understand my not knowing exactly what you mean, as what you mean seems to change with the weather.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because Europe and the clubs becomes the thing to watch as has happened in football. If a B&I league was the best thing to watch Europe becomes nothing more of a distraction, less interest, less money.

You're clutchign at straws.

British and Irish League will be the best League.
Europe would be the best cup
Test rugby would still be test rugby.

You're clearly just trying to think of ways to rubbish it. There would be even more interest in European rugby, because the field would start to level again rather than the big French teams dominating.

The FA cup remains the best cup but there's much less prestige and money attached now. Why would the French stop dominating? Wales couldn't compete, Scottish clubs need to play Scottish players for their internationals and the irish would continue as now playing their own players. Engllish clubs would be pretty similar anyway as we have the money and choose to have a cap.

F**k the Italians. Yep. It's the same old pie.

Care about us as at the same time we don't give a f**k about the Italians. Does someone owe someone a living here?

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Follow it through why on earth would you want to dilute the strength of the league by dividing in 2 then.

Because you can't play 24 teams in a season.

Why don't the English just do a deal with Glasgow, Leinster and Munster?

3 Union controlled clubs? In the PRL league? I assume this is tongue in cheek?

Forget the rest as they're so so, Scarlets could maybe have a go if they managed to hoover back some players Why take the rest it makes no sense. That way although English clubs would still be taking a big risk on BT or Sky stumping up another massive rise in cash it offsets it.

I see.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Because Europe and the clubs becomes the thing to watch as has happened in football. If a B&I league was the best thing to watch Europe becomes nothing more of a distraction, less interest, less money.

You're clutchign at straws.

British and Irish League will be the best League.
Europe would be the best cup
Test rugby would still be test rugby.

You're clearly just trying to think of ways to rubbish it. There would be even more interest in European rugby, because the field would start to level again rather than the big French teams dominating.

The FA cup remains the best cup but there's much less prestige and money attached now. Why would the French stop dominating? Wales couldn't compete, Scottish clubs need to play Scottish players for their internationals and the irish would continue as now playing their own players. Engllish clubs would be pretty similar anyway as we have the money and choose to have a cap.

Because the money involved would mean the gap would be bridged.

Enlgish, irish and Glasgow league. Drop a few clubs like Irish and Newcastle out and bring those in.

Would still need more money to make it a good deal for the English but I'm sure BT (Charity number 97382459) would be willing to pay for it all.

Last from me on this anyway as marty is completely right.

We were having a decent debate then No 7&1/2 (if just a rehash) I've no diea why you've now resorted to lowering yourself down to others' sarcastic levels.

Sarcastic?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Last from me on this anyway as marty is completely right.

Debatable. He sounds like he's about to cry in his posts,he's so desperate for us Welsh to like it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Everyone involved as it becomes less or a spectacle.

That doesn't eqate to less money at all. There is more £££ in the international game than ever before, and teams are playing each other more than ever before.

International teams play about 12 games a year. Club teams play about 3 times that.

Stone Motif wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Last from me on this anyway as marty is completely right.

Debatable. He sounds like he's about to cry in his posts,he's so desperate for us Welsh to like it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Why would the English want them if they don't try. Why would they have to try and who are they?

We've done this before so many times. In a 2 tier league or a conference style - if they want to progress / get promoted / be successful then they'll have to play out of their skin every week. There'll be no zebras. No Trevisos. Stronger teams playign stronger teams.

Follow it through why on earth would you want to dilute the strength of the league by dividing in 2 then. Why don't the English just do a deal with Glasgow, Leinster and Munster? Forget the rest as they're so so, Scarlets could maybe have a go if they managed to hoover back some players Why take the rest it makes no sense. That way although English clubs would still be taking a big risk on BT or Sky stumping up another massive rise in cash it offsets it.

Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).

Chunky's biggest fear. An E&I league.....

Sin é wrote:Mick Dawson (Leinster Rugby) said that he had been approached by a couple of English clubs who were only interested in taking in the Big 3 Irish Provinces (because of their travelling support).

Fair play the Irish travelling support is very strong during the European Cup games, however there are very few travelling fans for the Pro12 games.

Edit: cue the poor welsh attendances, or we don't travel to you because your abusive etc.