England v Wales, 26 September

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ENGLAND v WALES
26 September 2015
KO: 20:00
Twickenham, London

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Jérôme Garcès (France)
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper (South Africa) & Marius Mitrea (Italy)
Television match official: Shaun Veldsman (South Africa)

A. Head to Head

126 Played 126
58 Won 56
12 Drawn 12
56 Lost 58
1,596 Points 1,456

B. Recent Form

6 February 2015
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
16 – 21 to England

9 March 2014
Twickenham Stadium, London
29 – 18 to England

16 March 2013
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
30 – 3 to Wales

25 February 2012
Twickenham Stadium, London
12 – 19 to Wales

13 August 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 9 to Wales

6 August 2011
Twickenham, London
23 – 19 to England

4 February 2011
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
19 – 26 to England

6 February 2010
Twickenham, London
30 – 17 to England

14 February 2009
Millennium Stadium, Cardiff
23 – 15 to Wales

2 February 2008
Twickenham, London
19 – 26 to Wales

C. Teams

ENGLAND

[tbc]

WALES

[tbc]

If Australia are thinking about Wales and England, rather than their match with Fiji they could be in trouble.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Am I being a bit dense or do the last 2 sentences contradict each other?

Gatland added tight-head Lee and loose-head James are both struggling with "tight calves", while Jarvis damaged a rib cartilage.
"We may have to make a tough decision in terms of the props, because we have to have five props," said Gatland.
"At the moment we've only got three that could take the field and we have to have four."

Perhaps he's saying five props in the overall squad and four fit props for the matchday 23.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Stephen Jones, despite giving Brown a rating of 9/10 against Fiji, says we need to drop him for Goode against Wales. Discuss

He's a very big fan of Goode. That's the reason.

Of course Brown should start vs Wales. He was the best player on the pitch vs Fiji.

Think some players are on thin ice - both Youngs brothers,Cole and Barritt.

My changes for the Wales game would be minimal.

Launchbury and Billy Vunipola in for Parling and Morgan.

Nowell in for May.

B.Youngs and Barritt would be told anymore slip ups will see them be dropped.

My team

1.Marler
2.Youngs
3.Cole
4.Launchbury
5.Lawes
6.Wood
7.Robshaw
8.Vunipola

9.Youngs
10.Ford
11.Nowell
12.Barritt
13.Joseph
14.Watson
15.Brown

16.Mako
17.George
18.Brookes
19.Kruis
20.Haskell
21.Wigglesworth
22.Farrell
23.Burgess (for if Barritt has another poor game)

Hooker has to be a worry for England, Youngs is so ineffective.

I also think there isn't enough grunt in the tight, Lawes and Launchbury aren't honest enough.

Aside from those 2 issues, and Scott Williams/North aside I think England are better in every aspect, and I don't see how Wales are going to score the points.

May dropped from the match day squad? He was very good on Friday.

One of the best things about Barritt is that you know what you're getting from him game in game out, which is why it was so surprising to see him struggle so much on Friday.

Think he's got enough credit in the bank to be given a shot, I'm fairly sure that can be chalked up to a bad day at the office and he'll be back to normal next game.

Having said that, I would love to watch Roberts try and run head on at Sam Burgess

Launchbury 150% has to play. Parling shores up the lineout, but is so lightweight at the breakdown/scrum it's a huge cause for concern. We're trying to play wide, expansive rugby and we are going to get turned over when we don't commit many to the rucks - it's not rocket science.

Billy to start at 8, Launchbury for Parling (and then hope that T Youngs doesn't start throwing it everywhere without his safety blanket there) and then for me our pack has a bit more dynamism to it. I would be very tempted to drop B Youngs, but at their best I would have him ahead of Wiggles and deserves another go... he can't be as bad as he was on Friday.

Was pleasantly impressed by Burgess as well. Looking forwards to him coming off the bench and sending Roberts 5 yards back in the tackle as we're 31-6 up

"Youngs is so ineffective."

Simply not true.

May should be kept in, he did nothing wrong on Friday.

Barritt was a virtual liability. I've never rated him as anything better than average, despite him supposedly being the 'defensive glue' that England need and able to run the back line...

no 7 & 1/2 May's poor defence was on display again.

Jimpy May did nothing wrong except letting the Fijians ghost through which in the end did result in a try because Fiji still had the field position.

Barritt was poor agreed but just this once should be given the benefit of the doubt.

As for T.Youngs he was ineffective in the set piece. With him and Parling in the front five it was simply too lightweight. Sure he can play like a flanker but with no Hartley we need a hooker that can add some grunt. He also missed a throw too.

Unfortunately Lancaster failed to play George vs Fiji so his options are looking limited at hooker. Even the so called experienced Webber only got 5 minutes.

Set piece will be key vs Wales and Australia and so far the omens aren't looking good.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 May's poor defence was on display again.

Jimpy May did nothing wrong except letting the Fijians ghost through which in the end did result in a try because Fiji still had the field position.

Barritt was poor agreed but just this once should be given the benefit of the doubt.

As for T.Youngs he was ineffective in the set piece. With him and Parling in the front five it was simply too lightweight. Sure he can play like a flanker but with no Hartley we need a hooker that can add some grunt. He also missed a throw too.

Unfortunately Lancaster failed to play George vs Fiji so his options are looking limited at hooker. Even the so called experienced Webber only got 5 minutes.

Set piece will be key vs Wales and Australia and so far the omens aren't looking good.

Oh Jesus, here we go again. The opposition scored, so someone has to be at fault. Its the blame game. Very sad. Shall we slate Barritt for his rubbish show, after all, he was a penalty machine - surely that must have cost England points?

Ironically, it was Nowell's fault against France, a player you now appear to back unequivocally.

beshocked

I wouldn't worry, Wales have an injured tighthead, lock, and may be playing 2 7's open and blind, the Welsh scrum isn't in a strong place.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 May's poor defence was on display again.

Jimpy May did nothing wrong except letting the Fijians ghost through which in the end did result in a try because Fiji still had the field position.

Barritt was poor agreed but just this once should be given the benefit of the doubt.

As for T.Youngs he was ineffective in the set piece. With him and Parling in the front five it was simply too lightweight. Sure he can play like a flanker but with no Hartley we need a hooker that can add some grunt. He also missed a throw too.

Unfortunately Lancaster failed to play George vs Fiji so his options are looking limited at hooker. Even the so called experienced Webber only got 5 minutes.

Set piece will be key vs Wales and Australia and so far the omens aren't looking good.

For the length of the pitch run on the blind side? Where May does get back to make the tackle with Brown, the great bit of defending? You're saying that was bad?

No 7&1/2 wrote:
For the length of the pitch run on the blind side? Where May does get back to make the tackle with Brown, the great bit of defending? You're saying that was bad?

I assume that he is saying that May should not have let him past in the first place.

However that fails to recognise that:

1) Wood should have been making the tackle or at least occupying the space that May had to cover on the inside
2) Matawalu did an excellent step inside that May had no option but to cover (see point 1).


Beshocked has an agenda and will always twist things to fit, and ignore anything contradictory. I thought May was excellent.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 May's poor defence was on display again.

Jimpy May did nothing wrong except letting the Fijians ghost through which in the end did result in a try because Fiji still had the field position.

Barritt was poor agreed but just this once should be given the benefit of the doubt.

As for T.Youngs he was ineffective in the set piece. With him and Parling in the front five it was simply too lightweight. Sure he can play like a flanker but with no Hartley we need a hooker that can add some grunt. He also missed a throw too.

Unfortunately Lancaster failed to play George vs Fiji so his options are looking limited at hooker. Even the so called experienced Webber only got 5 minutes.

Set piece will be key vs Wales and Australia and so far the omens aren't looking good.

For the length of the pitch run on the blind side? Where May does get back to make the tackle with Brown, the great bit of defending? You're saying that was bad?

May did plenty to secure his place in the starting XV. He certainly was no worse than anyone else, he didn't stand out as having a poor game.

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
For the length of the pitch run on the blind side? Where May does get back to make the tackle with Brown, the great bit of defending? You're saying that was bad?

I assume that he is saying that May should not have let him past in the first place.

However that fails to recognise that:

1) Wood should have been making the tackle or at least occupying the space that May had to cover on the inside
2) Matawalu did an excellent step inside that May had no option but to cover (see point 1).


Beshocked has an agenda and will always twist things to fit, and ignore anything contradictory. I thought May was excellent.

Look, Fiji scored. It has to be someone's fault.

Hang them...

Great bit of defending? You mean when he let's the opposition run through?

Fiji still scored a try very soon after. Look I get it I know you think May can do no wrong but he should have stopped the Fijians sooner.

Jimpy I already said that Barritt played poorly. I show some balance in my view points. You don't. Actually with Barritt he was fortunate that Fiji didn't gain any points from the two penalties he gave away.

In regards to Nowell he's a better and more improved player than a year ago.

Views change.

If May played well, I would applaud him. He showed his poor defending again unfortunately.

May was a menace with the ball in hand and he did manage to run Matawalu down. It wasn't great missing him in the first place but Matawalu will do that to a lot of guys. It really isn't enough to drop him.

beshocked wrote:Great bit of defending? You mean when he let's the opposition run through?

Fiji still scored a try very soon after. Look I get it I know you think May can do no wrong but he should have stopped the Fijians sooner.

Jimpy I already said that Barritt played poorly. I show some balance in my view points. You don't. Actually with Barritt he was fortunate that Fiji didn't gain any points from the two penalties he gave away.

In regards to Nowell he's a better and more improved player than a year ago.

Views change.

If May played well, I would applaud him. He showed his poor defending again unfortunately.

He did, so I think that's why people seem confused about what you said.

If players are dropped every time they allow a line break, South Africa would only have 8 of their 31 man squad left to select from

Kieran Read and Dan Carter let the Argentine lock sneak between them for a try, should NZ drop both of them too?

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
For the length of the pitch run on the blind side? Where May does get back to make the tackle with Brown, the great bit of defending? You're saying that was bad?

I assume that he is saying that May should not have let him past in the first place.

However that fails to recognise that:

1) Wood should have been making the tackle or at least occupying the space that May had to cover on the inside
2) Matawalu did an excellent step inside that May had no option but to cover (see point 1).


Beshocked has an agenda and will always twist things to fit, and ignore anything contradictory. I thought May was excellent.

May gets turned inside and out by the Fijians and that's good defending?

Twist to fit? Oh and you guys don't? Saying he defended well when he let the Fijians almost score........ which they did shortly after anyway.

The problem is you guys never admit when May makes a mistake or any other player that you think is perfect..... - always someone else responsible, not me guv... that other bloke should have made the tackle.....

beshocked wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:
For the length of the pitch run on the blind side? Where May does get back to make the tackle with Brown, the great bit of defending? You're saying that was bad?

I assume that he is saying that May should not have let him past in the first place.

However that fails to recognise that:

1) Wood should have been making the tackle or at least occupying the space that May had to cover on the inside
2) Matawalu did an excellent step inside that May had no option but to cover (see point 1).


Beshocked has an agenda and will always twist things to fit, and ignore anything contradictory. I thought May was excellent.

May gets turned inside and out by the Fijians and that's good defending?

Twist to fit? Oh and you guys don't? Saying he defended well when he let the Fijians almost score........ which they did shortly after anyway.

The problem is you guys never admit when May makes a mistake or any other player that you think is perfect..... - always someone else responsible, not me guv... that other bloke should have made the tackle.....

Can you just confirm where we've said May (or any other player) is perfect please?

I seem to remember May getting loads of stick for his early days as a 'lateral' runner....

We need to drop Burgess as well, and barritt obviously. Watson could have jumped higher.

Come give some credit for a fantastic run.

lostinwales menace with ball in hand? Really?

Personally I thought the only decent starting back on display was Brown. Rest I thought were mediocre/ poor.

Wigglesworth, Farrell and Burgess all better than the starters when they came on IMO though I would give the incumbents the benefit of the doubt.

Bambam it's the frequency of mistakes defensively that May makes. May's defensive mistakes are forgiven whilst other English wingers in the past were criticised a lot......

Jimpy it's the perception that if May makes a mistake he doesn't have to take responsibility - effectively May can do no wrong in some people's eyes.

If he makes a mistake it's supposedly not a mistake or it's someone else's fault.

no 7 & 1/2 has twisted the poor defence by May into great defence... how does that work?

No 7&1/2 wrote:We need to drop Burgess as well, and  barritt obviously. Watson could have jumped higher.

Come give some credit for a fantastic run.

It's the same thing the analysts do with the video replays. Hindsight analysis. The player ran here, therefore this player should have been here.

I don't remember you being as hard on Ashton despite numerous mistakes which revolved mainly around poor tackling technique. Come on May got plenty of stick from everyone for the gaff against Wales yet not so much for this. Do you think it just possibly be because it was a fantastic run?

beshocked wrote:

Bambam it's the frequency of mistakes defensively that May makes. May's defensive mistakes are forgiven whilst other English wingers in the past were criticised a lot......

Oh so you're still crying about Ashton, I get it now, won't bother trying to reason with you then

Is there a risk Wales will try and go to uncontested scrums early on?





oh wait a min that would help England these days!

Jimpy wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:It's always a shame to see rugby players injured. But I saw nothing today that would worry England overly.  England just need to keep the penalty count low like they did against Ireland and it will be a comfortable win. Barring injuries.

Neither Wales nor England set world alight over the weekend so still all to play for in my mind at moment.  Aussies won't be quaking in their boots either.

Really?

I suspect that after watching Japan take SA down, Australia wont be taking anything for granted. England have a passable record against them at Twickenham.

Jimpy,

I agree and being at home will be in their favour but they showed nothing new or anything that the Aussies will be overly worried about, then again we haven't seen how they are going to go yet.

Matawalo will and hasbeaten better defenders than May.  Personally I think May will go well against Wales and his speed was great to take 3 m out of Matawalo to get back to make the tackle.  IMO you cannot beat pace out wide and May has it.  Especially against Wales pace out wide will get you tries.

Barritt I thought was very poor - gave away needless penalties from poor play and didn't do much ball in hand.

Stats from EsPN - May - 11 carries for 74 m 1 clean break 6 defenders beaten 6 offloads thats good.  He will skin Cuthbert or North ( whichever he is facing)  
Barritt - 3 runs for 6 m no one beaten 3 penalties conceded 3 turnovers- thats poor.  Burgess looked much better ( 3 carrys 17 m 1 defender beaten 4 offloads)

no 7 & 1/2 didn't need to as every man and their dog criticised Ashton.

When is something a fantastic run and when it is poor defence? Personally I think it's both.

As an England fan I would have wanted May or another England player to stop the Fijian.

Can't write it off because you deem it was fantastic....

Bambam well actually I thought May should get the benefit of the doubt because he did well in the warm ups. Unfortunately I don't think he played well vs Fiji.

I am sorry that I don't think that May can do no wrong.

You might have realised I haven't criticised the other winger Watson, it's because I think he's been consistently better than May and has offered more despite his own flaws for England.

Also I think Nowell should be recalled as he play much better in the 6 nations than May.

Agreed on Burgess. He still looks a little lost when the opposition have the ball, but Wales are a straight line team and have some big lads in the backline looking to get Wales on the front foot. Burgess would be a brave call but I'd be very tempted. Not against Australia though - you'll need all of Barritt's experience and savvy against that attack.

beshocked wrote: Jimpy May did nothing wrong except letting the Fijians ghost through which in the end did result in a try because Fiji still had the field position.
Barritt was poor agreed but just this once should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Drop May for one error but keep Barritt, who had a very poor game?

Agreed.

burgess could do very well against Wales, but his positioning and naivety could be a disaster against Australia.

Its no disgrace to be skinned by Matawalo - it was a great play by him and he wasn't Mays man to take - something else went wrong to leve May the closest - May would have had the winger to mark as well. I bet May has nightmares about it tho.

Hoonercat wrote:
Drop May for one error but keep Barritt, who had a very poor game?

I do not agree May made an error there any way.

May and Brown did stop him though beshocked. fair enough about Ashton I just remember you wanting him including all the time. You seem to have a real bee in your bonnet about May and since he's come back in he's done fantastically for me, showing direct fast running, great passing out of tackles, excellent in the air (I mean top quality). If it was a horrendous piece of defending fair enough but it really wasn't. he was also very good in attack despite getting poor ball.

TJ wrote:Matawalo will and hasbeaten better defenders than May.  Personally I think May will go well against Wales and his speed was great to take 3 m out of Matawalo to get back to make the tackle.  IMO you cannot beat pace out wide and May has it.  Especially against Wales pace out wide will get you tries.

Barritt I thought was very poor - gave away needless penalties from poor play and didn't do much ball in hand.

Stats from EsPN - May - 11 carries for 74 m 1 clean break 6 defenders beaten 6 offloads thats good.  He will skin Cuthbert or North ( whichever he is facing)  
Barritt - 3 runs for 6 m no one beaten 3 penalties conceded 3 turnovers- thats poor.  Burgess looked much better ( 3 carrys 17 m 1 defender beaten 4 offloads)

TJ No one claimed that Barritt played well. Why highlight Barritt?


Fair enough if May went well going forward but it's still his defence that worries me.

Watsons stats are poorer than Mays - less m gained, less players beaten one turnover conceeded

I know the stats are not everything but did May make any other errors apart from being beaten by one of the worlds best open field runners when he was left with two players to mark?

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:Matawalo will and hasbeaten better defenders than May.  Personally I think May will go well against Wales and his speed was great to take 3 m out of Matawalo to get back to make the tackle.  IMO you cannot beat pace out wide and May has it.  Especially against Wales pace out wide will get you tries.

Barritt I thought was very poor - gave away needless penalties from poor play and didn't do much ball in hand.

Stats from EsPN - May - 11 carries for 74 m 1 clean break 6 defenders beaten 6 offloads thats good.  He will skin Cuthbert or North ( whichever he is facing)  
Barritt - 3 runs for 6 m no one beaten 3 penalties conceded 3 turnovers- thats poor.  Burgess looked much better ( 3 carrys 17 m 1 defender beaten 4 offloads)

TJ  No one claimed that Barritt played well. Why highlight Barritt?


Fair enough if May went well going forward but it's still his defence that worries me.

It pains me to say it, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if you actually wanted May to start and play badly v Wales in order to validate your opinion of him.

TJ wrote:Watsons stats are poorer than Mays - less m gained, less players beaten one turnover conceeded

I know the stats are not everything but did May make any other errors apart from being beaten by one of the worlds best open field runners when he was left with two players to mark?

He plays for thw wrong team?

TJ wrote:Watsons stats are poorer than Mays - less m gained, less players beaten one turnover conceeded

I know the stats are not everything but did May make any other errors apart from being beaten by one of the worlds best open field runners when he was left with two players to mark?

Nope.

beshocked wrote:

TJ  No one claimed that Barritt played well. Why highlight Barritt?

Saw him mentioned above - only skim read the posts so if thats out of place sorry.  I did think he was mince tho, but then I have never understood what is seen in him

What other defensive mistakes did May make?  I don't remember any and the stats record no missed tackles - surely Matawalo was not his man?

Burgess has to play against Wales, you can beat him with guile and speed but he'll smash anyone who tries to run through him, anyone who can control SBW in League is going to have a field day against Jamie Roberts.

May had the 2nd best meters run after Brown (for both teams) 11 runs for 74m

lostinwales wrote:May had the 2nd best meters run after Brown (for both teams) 11 runs for 74m

And no missed tackles interestingly.

Londontiger ignore it if you want but it's a mistake whether you agree or not.

hoonercat it's because Barritt has done a hell of a lot more for England than May has if you compare their international appearances and what they've done.

Barritt had one poor game, May has been poor at defending since his international debut.

Ashton isn't in the squad - why bring him up? As you have, Ashton again has done a hell of a lot more for England than May too.

That's irrelevant anyway as my wingers would be Nowell and Watson vs Wales.

no 7 & 1/2 I wanted Ashton because of his experience and is a proven try scorer. Now I have accepted he won't be picked for England again.

I wish I could feel the same hype for May that you guys evidently do but I just don't rate him very highly.

I feel he has a lot to prove still.

When I think he's played well I'll give credit when credit's due.

TJ wrote:

beshocked wrote:

TJ  No one claimed that Barritt played well. Why highlight Barritt?

Saw him mentioned above - only skim read the posts so if thats out of place sorry.  I did think he was mince tho, but then I have never understood what is seen in him

What other defensive mistakes did May make?  I don't remember any and the stats record no missed tackles - surely Matawalo was not his man?

There was no missed tackle because there was no attempted tackle. There did seem a big gap there when Matawalu set off and as has been said Matawalu is very good at those kind of breaks.

May/Brown together just stopped the try. I honestly also felt that May was quiet for big parts of the match but I guess at wing you do depend on what happens inside, and he still shows up well in the stats

Do you think on current form Ashton was playing better for England when he was dropped than May is now?

You're still trying to put words in peoples mouths though aren't you. The 'hype' around May; really people are judging him on his performances. I think most people couldn't see beyond Watson and Nowell coming up to the world cup yet May has done brilliantly and even yourself can only point to a great bit of play from Matawalo.

Jimpy wrote:

beshocked wrote:

TJ wrote:Matawalo will and hasbeaten better defenders than May.  Personally I think May will go well against Wales and his speed was great to take 3 m out of Matawalo to get back to make the tackle.  IMO you cannot beat pace out wide and May has it.  Especially against Wales pace out wide will get you tries.

Barritt I thought was very poor - gave away needless penalties from poor play and didn't do much ball in hand.

Stats from EsPN - May - 11 carries for 74 m 1 clean break 6 defenders beaten 6 offloads thats good.  He will skin Cuthbert or North ( whichever he is facing)  
Barritt - 3 runs for 6 m no one beaten 3 penalties conceded 3 turnovers- thats poor.  Burgess looked much better ( 3 carrys 17 m 1 defender beaten 4 offloads)

TJ  No one claimed that Barritt played well. Why highlight Barritt?


Fair enough if May went well going forward but it's still his defence that worries me.

It pains me to say it, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if you actually wanted May to start and play badly v Wales in order to validate your opinion of him.

Not at all. I would love May to score a try or two. Play well. I want England to be the best they can be. I just don't rate May that highly.

If May starts I will want him to have a good performance because I want England to beat Wales.

I will concede that perhaps I am too harsh on May - I just personally feel like he's got a lot to prove in general.

Perhaps I am overly harsh on his performance vs Fiji and should focus on his attack and not his defence. Should focus on his metres made and defenders beaten instead of lack of tries and poor defence in meaningful games.

Given he was granted loads of room following the excellent showing from midfield when do you think May was butchering try scoring chances?