How Ireland make the jump to next level

First topic message reminder :

We have no Autumn Internationals in 2011 due to World Cup. Does anyone else think rather than introducing our youngsters against South African and New Zealand the next step for Ireland is to use the 6 Nations as a training ground and target away wins over the Southern Hemisphere in the summer with a full strenght squad?

Away wins are the next step for us if we are serious about progressing in the future?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Which hardly stops people banging on about the likes of Tuilagi, Botha, Fourie, Stephens etc playing for England under similar circumstances.

Eh? Matt Stevens (note spelling) represented the Boks at U18 & U19? Fourie moved to England in '05 to play for Rotherham Titans? Botha moved to England to play for Bedford? All were clearly in adulthood? Perhaps not the greatest examples!

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Theres a big difference between Unions actively drafting in players with an idea of making these part of the national side and people moving to a country because of social and economic forces.
The only case Im really aware of recently of this is English age group internationals being offered SRU funded contracts to play in Scotland with the specific aim of getting them qualfied for Scotland (Evans brothers, the Dutch chap...).

Ultimately all players in Scotland are funded by the SRU, but there are no central contracts - players sign with one of the two pro teams directly. The Evans brothers were always dual-qualified - when they realised that they were unlikely to make it into the England senior set-up, they were perfectly entitled to switch allegiance

MBTGOG wrote:Quade Cooper moved to Australia when he was 14 with his family.

There are no current All Blacks who were born abroad that moved to New Zealand to play rugby. They came because their families did to get them a better life.

I'll give you Rathbone and Noriega, but apart from that, your views are incredibly uneducated.

Uneducated that's hilarious. You havent a clue about my education pal. There have been more examples of NZ imports than any other country. Doesn't matter if they are none in the current set up.

Leinster with regards to this you are uneducated. Nothing to do with your schooling.

Agreed. So I hope that some will not get all moral when Strauss qualifies in the Autumn.

Why should some not get moral when Strauss qualifies?

Boyne wrote:Agreed. So I hope that some will not get all moral when Strauss qualifies in the Autumn.

I will get moral as I don't agree with the Project Player system. It involves the IRFU actively seeking foreigners to play for Ireland. I think its a disgrace and needs to be scrapped. I won't boycott team or anything and when he wears green he'll have my support.

Its the IRB who need to change the ridiculous system.

red_stag wrote:Leinster with regards to this you are uneducated. Nothing to do with your schooling.

Thanks for the education oracle of rugby knowledge. With respect I have been following rugby for a lot longer than your good self.

red_stag wrote:

Boyne wrote:Agreed. So I hope that some will not get all moral when Strauss qualifies in the Autumn.

I will get moral as I don't agree with the Project Player system. It involves the IRFU actively seeking foreigners to play for Ireland. I think its a disgrace and needs to be scrapped. I won't boycott team or anything and when he wears green he'll have my support.

Its the IRB who need to change the ridiculous system.

You are contradicting yourself now

LeinsterBaby,

Even if you've been following rugby for a long time doesn't mean you understand the economic reasons why so many families from the Pacific Islands move to New Zealand and Australia for a better life and their children feel more affiliation to that nation to the one they were born in.

Also, how is Stag contradicting himself?

MBTGOG wrote:LeinsterBaby,

Even if you've been following rugby for a long time doesn't mean you understand the economic reasons why so many families from the Pacific Islands move to New Zealand and Australia for a better life and their children feel more affiliation to that nation to the one they were born in.

Also, how is Stag contradicting himself?

I was born in Australia you fool, lived there for years then moved back to Ireland because my parents are Irish. One of my uncles is Australia team physio, another one used to play the Wallabies and was involved with the Tahs. So I think I do know a thing or two about Australia.

Am I? I have zero problem with residency. No problems whatsoever.

I just think that residency is too short and that it is completely alien to international rugby for countries to scout and buy players from other nations.

Then LeinsterBaby, who would you play for, Australia or Ireland?

Are you Irish or Australian? Are your uncles? Are your parents?

red_stag wrote:Are you Irish or Australian? Are your uncles? Are your parents?

I have two passports Why?

MBTGOG wrote:Then LeinsterBaby, who would you play for, Australia or Ireland?

Ireland why?

So have you been imported?

leinsterbaby wrote:

red_stag wrote:Are you Irish or Australian? Are your uncles? Are your parents?

I have two passports Why?

Are you Keith Gleeson's younger brother? (He might have had a brother born in Australia as his family moved there when he was 6/7).

Did we poach you? Did Australia poach your uncle?

My uncles are actually my fathers cousins but they have always been close so I think of them as uncles. I stayed with one of them for a month in December. My brother still lives in Australia. My fathers cousins are Australian with Irish grandparents.

Not related to Keith Gleeson, no.

So maybe you can understand why men who moved to New Zealand at a young age might actually want to play for the All Blacks considering most of them only ever learned to play rugby there.

MBTGOG wrote:So have you been imported?

Im not a professional rugby player.

MBTGOG wrote:So maybe you can understand why men who moved to New Zealand at a young age might actually want to play for the All Blacks considering most of them only ever learned to play rugby there.

I can understand why they would want to play club rugby there yes but I think they should represent their country of origin.

Country of origin and nationality are different things.

Well here's my tuppence worth on your import dilemma.

Strauss should not be allowed to play for Ireland.
Bo****ks to this residency lark.
I too think that this project idea is a load of tosh.

Can we not as a nation play our own Irish players.
What kind of message will it send if these guys (that are only in Ireland for the coin) can qualify for Ireland after 3 years.

I don't care how good they are,they can go and play for their own countries.

Look at the mess England have got themselves in because of this carry on.

Irish jersey for Irish players thanks.

Tayto in the world we live in residency is necessary. But 3 years is a joke. I think 7 years would be fair enough personally. If you have lived here that long and are still young enough to get into Irish team then welcome aboard.

But currently its a joke.

So will Strauss not have your support if he plays Tayto?

I know it's addressed to someone else but he will have my support but I'd much prefer someone playing whose first choice is Ireland.

If Strauss got an offer to head back as first choice to a South African Super Rugby side, do you think he wouldn't accept it ahead of an Irish cap?

Boyne wrote:So will Strauss not have your support if he plays Tayto?

I will always support Ireland as a team.
If the fella is to play International rugby then why doesn't he go back to SA and fight for his place.

Oh then again maybe he will have too much competition and will not be good enough.

To be fair, would you risk it all and move back to South Africa just to be subjected to the mad whims of PVilly?

Were Carter South African, he probably wouldn't get picked by De Villiers!

My own view on such matters, and us Scots have seen some real imported journeymen over the years, is that (a) the rules need to change and be considerably tighter, (b) I'll support anyone playing for Scotland, and (c) like MBTGOG, I would of course far rather players chose Scotland because they wanted to play for us, not because they weren't good enough to play for anyone else.

Strauss will become eligable in the middle of next year. He will have a tussle with another hopeful - Cronin, - on both Provincial and National levels.

We are a very small country, with limited resources. England, Scotland and even Wales - have been playing naturalised "foreigners" for years now...

So, we take the moral high-ground and lose out? That is not a level playing-field.

I think we "owe" ourselves this one. He is the best young hooker in the NH right now. We badly need him.

But, I would not advocate it as policy, just in exceptional circumstances. Irish players FIRST.

Gibbo - with Cronin and Rory Best both still in their 20s and Mike Sherry looking promising we don't need to resort to this.

I think we "owe" ourselves this one.

I think we "owe" ourselves more to trust in what we have.

Stag,

You can add to that list Niall Annett, who is coming through and looks like a future international.

Actually yes I forgot about him Munsty captained the U20s didn't he.

Gibbo I'd rather Cronin displaced Strauss at Leinster and he travelled home with his tail between his legs telling everyone along the way the strenght of Irish rugby.

We don't need project players

red_stag wrote:We don't need project players

On principle I'd agree at hooker, but what about prop? Take Tom Court and Brett Wilkinson out of the extended squad and the selection of Irish props would look particularly shaky.

Gibbo, we badly need Dan Carter as well as Richie McCaw. We are not that bad off for up and coming young hookers. Cronin, Sherry, Henry, Annett. I'd be holding my fire on capping Straus, thanks very much. These guys should get preferential treatment over him.

greybeard wrote:

red_stag wrote:We don't need project players

On principle I'd agree at hooker, but what about prop? Take Tom Court and Brett Wilkinson out of the extended squad and the selection of Irish props would look particularly shaky.

Paddy McAllister, Jamie Hagan, Stephen Archer, Darragh Hurley, John Andress, Declan Fitzpatrick, Callum Black, Jack McGrath, Stewart McGuire.

Necessity is the mother of invention. McAllister and Hagan will be replacing Court and Buckley/Hayes. Actually who knows what England will do for Buckley.

Tom Court was already qualified if I'm not mistaken.

red_stag wrote:

greybeard wrote:

red_stag wrote:We don't need project players

On principle I'd agree at hooker, but what about prop? Take Tom Court and Brett Wilkinson out of the extended squad and the selection of Irish props would look particularly shaky.

Paddy McAllister, Jamie Hagan, Stephen Archer, Darragh Hurley, John Andress, Declan Fitzpatrick, Callum Black, Jack McGrath, Stewart McGuire.

But all you're doing is listing props. Not everyone on that list is of international standard. Strauss is.

And to be honest neither is Cronin yet. He played because Flannery was out, any time he was on the pitch he looked a bit lost. He has time ahead of him, though.

Strauss might be international quality but I'd prefer someone to represent me in my national side who wants to play for Ireland first and foremost not just because they can't even get a start at their Currie Cup side.

greybeard wrote:

red_stag wrote:We don't need project players

On principle I'd agree at hooker, but what about prop? Take Tom Court and Brett Wilkinson out of the extended squad and the selection of Irish props would look particularly shaky.

Tom Court's grandparents are Irish, so I wouldn't have a problem with his selection. I wouldn't have had a problem with Warwick (I know he isn't eligible as he played Aus 7s) either as he married an Irish woman and he has an Irish child i.e., he has a family connection with Ireland.

I would have had a problem with Mafi 3/4 years ago, but I wouldn't now as he has been resident in Ireland for 6/7 years.

Stag and MBTGOG,
You know, most of me agrees with what you both say. I am on record as continually saying, that I want Leinster - never mind Ireland, to be a full Irish-born XV.

But the boy is young. What would you say if you moved at your age - to Oz or NZ and they said would you play for us? But only if you intend to live, put down roots and make your life here?

Its tricky. He's just turned 25 and has 8/9 years in him, as a top-class hooker. I would expect contractual-committment, to dissuade any chancers doing it.

I would like to know what the Irish criteria is, for "Project players". Maybe ye can sway me.

My mistake on Court.

Sin é,

Mafi hasn't even been here 5 years.

Greybeard my point is that we will survive and adapt. We have to. Ross is into his 30s now. We thought it was doom and gloom and we found him and Healy. Healy only got game time as there was nobody else in Leinster.

Nobody is born a great player. McAllister will be first choice for Ulster next season. Hagan will be at Leinster learning from Feek and Ross. Lets concentrate on getting those two established as rivals to Ross and Healy.

MBTGOG wrote:Sin é,

Mafi hasn't even been here 5 years.

opps - seems to be here for a long time. He came in 2006.

As an aside, I wonder do Mafi, Howlett & Tipoki juniors (born in Ireland?) now become eligible to play for Ireland

Stag, I mostly agree with you.

But don't you think it's ironic an article asking how Ireland can make the jump to the next level has turned into a discussion about how we shouldn't profit from all of the opportunities available?

Many Leinster fans like myself would love to see Nacewa in an Ireland shirt, but for a few tiny minutes playing for Fiji. I can't pretend otherwise.

Sin é wrote:Gibbo, we badly need Dan Carter as well as Richie McCaw. We are not that bad off for up and coming young hookers. Cronin, Sherry, Henry, Annett. I'd be holding my fire on capping Straus, thanks very much. These guys should get preferential treatment over him.

Sin,
Fair enough. As long as they are better than him.

I think the die has been cast however. He is so talented, I cant see his momentum being stopped now.
If Cronin, Sherry et al do it. And Strauss' performances, pushes them to raise their game... Then its win-win for us.

Big picture stuff.

P.S We dont need Carter or McCaw.

Gibson wrote:Stag and MBTGOG,
But the boy is young. What would you say if you moved at your age - to Oz or NZ and they said would you play for us? But only if you intend to live, put down roots and make your life here?

This isn't a part of it at all.

Yeah the big picture. It's an Irish representative side. Does Strauss represent Irish rugby playing people?

greybeard wrote:Stag, I mostly agree with you.

But don't you think it's ironic an article asking how Ireland can make the jump to the next level has turned into a discussion about how we shouldn't profit from all of the opportunities available?

Many Leinster fans like myself would love to see Nacewa in an Ireland shirt, but for a few tiny minutes playing for Fiji. I can't pretend otherwise.

Its very ironic and a valid discussion. All linked in together. HOW we make the jump is just as important.