How Ireland make the jump to next level

First topic message reminder :

We have no Autumn Internationals in 2011 due to World Cup. Does anyone else think rather than introducing our youngsters against South African and New Zealand the next step for Ireland is to use the 6 Nations as a training ground and target away wins over the Southern Hemisphere in the summer with a full strenght squad?

Away wins are the next step for us if we are serious about progressing in the future?

Leinster,

I can't see that happening. There just isn't enough money in the game for it to happen. The French clubs can't keep this going and once the squads have to be 50% French it will be less of a worry.

The rugby played in the HEC is better. The quality of games in last years quarter finals was brilliant. The quality of Leinsters semi final was far better than almost any 6 nations game I can remember. The final was brilliant to. Most of the games in the 6 Nations are rubbish.

Irish teams have won 4 out of 6 HEC's but have only managed one 6 nations grand slam and even then, they barely set the world alight. Scraped over the line in the end.

France have more depth of talent than any team in world rugby. Sometimes they play great. Sometimes they're rubbish.

Wales won two grand slams in the last decade but finished outside the top half in every other year of the decade. Playing awful most of the time.

England showed they have the potential to be the best in the world back in '03. But they then had a shocking collapse in the quality of their team. It took eight years for them to win the tournament again.

Scotland an Italy do not play good rugby. Their games against each other are truly awful.

Many people now believe the Heineken Cup is the premier European rugby tournament. The quality of rugby played in it is definately better. I'd still say the 6 Nations is more important. But why is it of such a low quality? No team seems able to string two good seasons together. There is almost never a six try thriller like we saw in the Heineken Cup final.

Why are southern hemisphere teams better?

Mentality. Always believe they can beat anyone. In Ireland we are sometimes happy to be gallant losers. We love to say things like we will never beat New Zealand. Rubbish. Sometimes we show these teams too much respect. This certainly seems to be the case v France. We all know we don't really respect the English. Is this why we keep beating them? The great England team of 03 never showed is any respect and kept hammering us.

Imports. All SH teams have been importing players shamelessly for years. We are one of the last teams to do it. Don't agree with this at all but we need to level the playing field.

Conditions. I do think that it makes a difference that conditions in SH rugby lend themselves to a faster more running style of rugby. In the NH we play in the winter and a lot of games are played much more conservatively as our conditions don't permit much else a lot of the time. Is it a coincidence that some of the best running rugby players in the NH come from the south of France?

It's harder for national coaches to form as cohesive a team as a club coach can, because national coaches have the players for a relatively short time. That I think is why the Heineken Cup final was so much better in quality than the Six Nations games. Look at how poor Leinster were at the start of the Magners League and yet the won the Heineken Cup.

Imports. All SH teams have been importing players shamelessly for years. We are one of the last teams to do it. Don't agree with this at all but we need to level the playing field

Sorry, but what are you talking about?


On the subject of the H Cup final being better, think of the last three and they've all been as dull as Six Nations games.

Feckless Rogue wrote:But why is it of such a low quality? No team seems able to string two good seasons together. There is almost never a six try thriller like we saw in the Heineken Cup final.

Several reasons IMO:

- The teams have not played together for 4 months
- The fear of losing to a big rival can stifle good play
- Teams are trying not to lose rather than to win
- There is little incentive to attack aside from points difference
- Very little preparation time before games

MBTGOG wrote:

Imports. All SH teams have been importing players shamelessly for years. We are one of the last teams to do it. Don't agree with this at all but we need to level the playing field

Sorry, but what are you talking about?


On the subject of the H Cup final being better, think of the last three and they've all been as dull as Six Nations games.

All SH teams bar Argentina that is. Aus, SA and NZ

I think a lot of why the SH teams do well up here is because they come here after they have finished a Tri-Nations tournament. If Ireland went touring after the England game and played a SH team that was just at the start of its season, it would have a good chance of beating them.

Similarly at the world cup, all the SH teams will be coming off their Tri-Nations.

The reason why there might be better rugby in the Heineken Cup might also have something to do with the fact that club teams are together for most of the season and play 20+ games together.

For the 6Ns, they get 2 weeks together and 1 game if they are lucky before they have to play France and possibly win away from home at that. Another point worth noting is that there is a Home & Away for the Group stages which allows teams to throw the kitchen sink at it a bit. It can get fairly boring once you reach the knockout stages as well.

Sin é wrote:ISimilarly at the world cup, all the SH teams will be coming off their Tri-Nations.

I don't see it being an issue. Ireland have 5 warm up games - Scotland, France, Connact, France, England - the 3 Nations have six games. Last time round we had two or three half hearted tests.

Actually, the Tri-Nations sides will have 4 games each, plus a game for New Zealand and Australia against Fiji and Samoa respectively before the comp.

Oh wow really? Didn't realise they had that amount. Still I think at that point diminishing returns kicks in. I'm happy that Ireland will have played 9 games in an 11 week period by the time we face Australia.

The NH teams are still at a bit of a disadvantage with regard to tournament timing. Its the start of their rugby season. There is a reason why the Heineken Cup does not start in September!

Ah its true Sin E, we'll remedy it this year though. I, like most people it seems, am very optimistic of us beating Australia.

Listening to the Ruggamatrix podcast, it seems that Ireland is being talked up a bit downunder.

I'd be very optimistic with regard to our chances against Australia.

Big worry though is USA on 9/11. I think we will still win just about, but they will probably put such an effort in for that game, they will give us a good run for our money/tire us/we won/t get any momentum from a decent win, and the USA will run out of gas against the rest of the teams.

Sin é wrote:Big worry though is USA on 9/11. I think we will still win just about, but they will probably put such an effort in for that game, they will give us a good run for our money/tire us/we won/t get any momentum from a decent win, and the USA will run out of gas against the rest of the teams.

Don't see USA as being that big a threat - 9/11 anniversary or not. What I could actully see happening is defeating Australia and losing to Wales. That would be very Irish.

Worried about USA?

I'd be worried about Italy.

I don't think we'll lose to Wales somehow or other. Not after the way they won the last time. That must have really annoyed the Irish lads.

Good thing about Ireland v Aus - all the locals will be supporting Ireland more than likely.

Boyne: Only worried about USA because of not getting a good momentum going. Bear in mind that Eddie O'Sullivan knows Ireland very, very well.

Edit: Italy are away from home as well. You have to factor that in.

Eddie knows HIS Ireland very very well. However he knows nothing about Healy, Ross, O'Brien, Sexton, Earls and plenty of squad players who will probably be playing.

The Azurri won't beat us outside of Italy.

Sin é wrote:Listening to the Ruggamatrix podcast, it seems that Ireland is being talked up a bit downunder.

I'd be very optimistic with regard to our chances against Australia.

Big worry though is USA on 9/11. I think we will still win just about, but they will probably put such an effort in for that game, they will give us a good run for our money/tire us/we won/t get any momentum from a decent win, and the USA will run out of gas against the rest of the teams.

Ha you are listening to the Podcasts now? Ruggamatrix always talks up Ireland because Less Kiss is one of their biggest contributors. Having said that a lot of knowledgable rugby people in Australia would talk up Ireland. One thing is also for sure they will do their homework on us. At the 03 WC Aus players were given a 20 page document on all Irelands players and their strengths and weaknesses to study. Irish players were given a one pager. Aussie preparation is incredibly professional.

He will still know Ireland better than any other team in our group. I see he is being quoted that he thinks Ireland can do very well in the world cup this year. (Hope he isn't just talking us up so that we fail!).

http://examiner.ie/sport/rugby/osullivan-tips-ireland-as-world-cup-dark-horses-156521.html

Ireland will hammer the US. Wouldn't worry about them at all. They will come at us all guns blazing for 20 minutes and then fold.

SinE, I think for Eddie his ideal would be to beat us in the pool stages but see us get as far as we can once it doesn't affect his team.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Sin é wrote:Listening to the Ruggamatrix podcast, it seems that Ireland is being talked up a bit downunder.

I'd be very optimistic with regard to our chances against Australia.

Big worry though is USA on 9/11. I think we will still win just about, but they will probably put such an effort in for that game, they will give us a good run for our money/tire us/we won/t get any momentum from a decent win, and the USA will run out of gas against the rest of the teams.

Ha you are listening to the Podcasts now? Ruggamatrix always talks up Ireland because Less Kiss is one of their biggest contributors. Having said that a lot of knowledgable rugby people in Australia would talk up Ireland. One thing is also for sure they will do their homework on us. At the 03 WC Aus players were given a 20 page document on all Irelands players and their strengths and weaknesses to study. Irish players were given a one pager. Aussie preparation is incredibly professional.

eh, not necessarily more professional. Ever hear the phrase 'Less is More'.

PS - I often listen to Ruggamatrix - thats nothing new as far a I'm concerned. Considering who Ireland have in its coaching setup (Kiss, Gaffney & Gert Smal), there is bound to be interest in Ireland. Then of course, Munster beating Australia last November must have come as a bit of a shock to them as well. I'd also be sure that the Kiwis are keeping an eye on Wales/Gatland.

Yeah, South Africa is riddled with imports.

We have poached

The Beast from the highly rated Zimbabwean Professional Rugby Union.

And..................




Uhhh...........................




Sorry can't think of anyone else at the moment.

Ireland have a great chance this year but its going to be difficult. We are not the best at World Cups but i will be living in hope again as usual

There was a stage where Ireland weren't good at RUGBY never mind good at World Cups!! Golden Generation my behind, it was merely the start of something special.

We'll beat the USA, but it won't be as easy as some are suggesting. Remember England didn't even get a bonus point off them last time around and ended up being finalists.

All SH teams bar Argentina that is. Aus, SA and NZ

Importing what though?

Munsty, apparently South Africa import machinery, equipment, chemicals, petroleum products, scientific instruments and foodstuffs. Mainly from Germany and China

biltongbek wrote:Yeah, South Africa is riddled with imports.

We have poached

The Beast from the highly rated Zimbabwean Professional Rugby Union.

And..................




Uhhh...........................




Sorry can't think of anyone else at the moment.

SA have been poaching players from Zimbabwe and Namibia.

I just poach eggs.

"I just poach eggs."

NOT an easy thing to do. Trick is to put a wee bit of vinegar in the water when its boiling..

<run>

I just have one of those egg poaching sets. Martin Johnson has one too I think for poaching kiwis . . . .the fruit I mean :run2:

red_stag wrote:We have no Autumn Internationals in 2011 due to World Cup. Does anyone else think rather than introducing our youngsters against South African and New Zealand the next step for Ireland is to use the 6 Nations as a training ground and target away wins over the Southern Hemisphere in the summer with a full strenght squad?

Away wins are the next step for us if we are serious about progressing in the future?

Staggy, sorry, I disagree. I think that Ireland should be aiming for consistently beating England, France and Wales - at that point, and with the winning mentality at the international level that will bring, then you should be trying to bear the TriNations consistently at home in the AIs, and after that push for away wins against them

Ireland make the next step by:

- Picking their best team for every game (but on close calls going for the younger man).

- Winning as many games as possible.

Surely you have to win the Six Nations three or four times in a short period and dominate the competition before looking at the 'next step'?

You're youngsters' confidence would be destroyed by getting smashed by France and England.

You just need to start phasing out the older guys who aren't good enough to justify a starting place anymore and bringing in the youngsters such Murray, Jones and McFadden.

biltong,

Brian Mujati from Zimbabwe as well.

Leinster,

I don't think any of these nations have been poaching player. Just a matter of circumstance which others prefer to cal poaching as they need to find some reason why they keep losing to these sides.

No need to apologise. Most people disagree We've got consistently beating England taken care of anyway !!

I would also say our home record against SA and Australia is good enough to start looking for wins away. If England can why can't we?

Killer_B_6 wrote:You're youngsters' confidence would be destroyed by getting smashed by France and England.

You just need to start phasing out the older guys who aren't good enough to justify a starting place anymore and bringing in the youngsters such Murray, Jones and McFadden.

I do wish people would read back. I do not advocate heaps of youngsters playing in every game. I have thought rather than stick with our World Cup contingent that we try out maybe half a dozen new players over the course of the 5 games.

Staggy, sorry, I disagree. I think that Ireland should be aiming for consistently beating England, France and Wales - at that point, and with the winning mentality at the international level that will bring, then you should be trying to bear the TriNations consistently at home in the AIs, and after that push for away wins against them

It's France we need to beat consistently. England has been achieved. Wales has only been 3 losses in 11.

Boyne wrote:"I just poach eggs."

NOT an easy thing to do. Trick is to put a wee bit of vinegar in the water when its boiling..

<run>

I heard if you put out a match in the water it can help too. Also stir the water to create a mini whirlpool and put the egg in the middle can also help.

And this summer is as good a time as any to record a double victory over the French

It doesn't matter how you poach the egg, you will still be left with an egg. Which is evil.

I'm not that confident of beating Australia. Anyone seen the Reds playing in the Super 15 recently? When is the last time Ireland won in the southern hemisphere? I think we can only beat them if they have an off day. Luckily they do have off days. They're not the most consistent. They've totally humiliated France but also lost to Scotland.

Yeah I've watched the Reds and while they've been good, there are weaknesses in their game that their momentum is covering up at the moment.

But club rugby is different to international. Irish provinces beat Top 14 clubs regularly but the France team, even with Lievremont at the helm, seems to be something more than the sum of it's parts.

MBTGOG wrote:biltong,

Brian Mujati from Zimbabwe as well.

Leinster,

I don't think any of these nations have been poaching player. Just a matter of circumstance which others prefer to cal poaching as they need to find some reason why they keep losing to these sides.

Word I used originally was imports. Taking good players from abroad can strengthen your squad. Not an excuse it's fact. Australia for example, poor front row signed Patricio Noriega former argentinian scrummaging machine pre 99 WC. Current Australia team, Quade Cooper comes in to fill a hole in Aussie team.

Clide Rathbone anyone? None Aussies all represented another country at various different levels.

New Zealand. Young Islanders come to NZ to play rugby, if they are good enough they are in the NZ team after three years residency. Fair, of course not.

Of course imports strengthen squads, fairly making to suggest otherwise.We don't really engage in this in Ireland either by coincidence or design. Not a level playing field.

Quade Cooper moved to Australia when he was 14 with his family.

There are no current All Blacks who were born abroad that moved to New Zealand to play rugby. They came because their families did to get them a better life.

I'll give you Rathbone and Noriega, but apart from that, your views are incredibly uneducated.

Agree with Munsty its a tired stereotype and in reality they are no worse than anyone ourselves included.

Kevin Maggs was born in England. We poached him. Most people think O'Driscoll is a great centre. But he really just got his reputation on the back of playing beside the magnificent Maggs. Not many people know that.

"Quade Cooper moved to Australia when he was 14 with his family.
"

Which hardly stops people banging on about the likes of Tuilagi, Botha, Fourie, Stephens etc playing for England under similar circumstances.

But theres a lot more people playing for the PIsland teams born in New Zealand than there are playing for New Zealand who are immigrants.


Its just the way it goes.
Theres a big difference between Unions actively drafting in players with an idea of making these part of the national side and people moving to a country because of social and economic forces.
The only case Im really aware of recently of this is English age group internationals being offered SRU funded contracts to play in Scotland with the specific aim of getting them qualfied for Scotland (Evans brothers, the Dutch chap...). You could argue the aborted RFU policy of funding league converst (which bought in Vanikolo) was similar.

Theres then another catagory of players who shop around for an interntaional team. Someone posted up a link to an interview with a young Islander who was saying how he'd happily play for Australia (where hes currently based) but is hoping the All Blacks call on him first because thats his preferred option. You could say England are the kings of recruiting those kind of guys (Flutey, Hape, Waldrom etc)
But I defy anyone to show me a Union that hasnt, or wouldnt, take a player who would improve their team under those circumstances. Its the rules, people follow them. Thats why they exist.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Kevin Maggs was born in England. We poached him. Most people think O'Driscoll is a great centre. But he really just got his reputation on the back of playing beside the magnificent Maggs. Not many people know that.

Exactly and Tuohy and Boss and Court would be others