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World Tour Finals (WTF!) 2015 - Day 4 (was Day2 and Day3!)

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Post by laverfan Mon Nov 16, 2015 3:38 am

First topic message reminder :

The ATP website seems to have evolved and become AI-enabled and may not show the correct day when you click on the link, so here are a variety of links

PDF version - PDF version
Day 4 link - Day 4 link (may work)
Live Scores on the ATP Web Site - ATP Live Scores
Barclays Live Scores - Barclays Live Scores


MotD - Murray v Nadal.


Last edited by laverfan on Wed Nov 18, 2015 12:02 pm; edited 7 times in total

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Post by lags72 Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:56 pm

Calder106 wrote:Problem with the format is that players can put in an inept performance like Wawrinka did last night and still have a reasonable chance of getting to at least the semi finals.

.................................

Any other tournament he would be on his way home by now.

Well, true enough - but there is at least some justice in as much as the event has been part of the Tour long enough now that all players are/should be aware of the risks.

Plus, Wawrinka's limp display, esp. in the second set, could yet come back to bite him if he ends up in a 'countback' of games won/lost. I think Murray missed out on a SF place some time ago, albeit not necessarily (?) because of an inept performance.

All said & done, I guess you will eventually go home anyway if you perform 'less well' than others in the field. It was ever thus.

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:12 pm

laverfan wrote:Just changed the title of this discussion, rather than start a new one with the same links.

Not wildly excited about this strategy. Maybe you could copy and paste the links or leave someone else to do the thread. Confuses things after the fact to completely reedit the article and the comments no longer match. What does everyone else think?

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:14 pm

So it's a big 4 again now? A while ago Nadal was no more than a solid top tenner...

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Post by Haddie-nuff Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Whistle So much for the 'fickle forum"

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Post by Guest Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:26 pm

Isn't it just the Big 1? Laugh

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:29 pm

So Djokovic/Federer.

There is a tendency for Federer to win their minor matches and I would say, especially with a straight sets first match in the bag, that this is a fairly minor match for them both.

So if the theory is true that Federer wins the minor matches but Djokovic is mentally tougher in the big ones then the theory possibly predicts a Federer win today followed by potentially a Djokovic win in the final.

Federer does tend to win the Dubais and Cincinattis but lose the Wimbledons and US Opens, court speed could be a factor though. If we were to get two matches here at the same surface, that would be a nice test of the theory that Federer is the more talented and better shot maker, but weaker mentally when it comes to the crunch.

Another thing to note is the the players are dead level on head to head, so a chance for Djokovic to edge ahead for the first time ever.

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Post by Calder106 Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:40 pm

lags72 wrote:
Calder106 wrote:Problem with the format is that players can put in an inept performance like Wawrinka did last night and still have a reasonable chance of getting to at least the semi finals.

.................................

 Any other tournament he would be on his way home by now.

Well, true enough - but there is at least some justice in as much as the event has been part of the Tour long enough now that all players are/should be aware of the risks.

Plus, Wawrinka's limp display, esp. in the second set, could yet come back to bite him if he ends up in a 'countback' of games won/lost. I think Murray missed out on a SF place some time ago, albeit not necessarily (?) because of an inept performance.

All said & done, I guess you will eventually go home anyway if you perform 'less well' than others in the field. It was ever thus.

Yes in 2009. An inept performance by Fed against Del Po put him out Whistle Mind you Murray shouldn't have lost his third set against Federer 6-1 or lost a set to Verdasco if he wanted to go through. Smile

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Post by lags72 Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:55 pm

Henman Bill wrote:So Djokovic/Federer.

There is a tendency for Federer to win their minor matches and I would say, especially with a straight sets first match in the bag, that this is a fairly minor match for them both.

So if the theory is true that Federer wins the minor matches but Djokovic is mentally tougher in the big ones then the theory possibly predicts a Federer win today followed by potentially a Djokovic win in the final.

Federer does tend to win the Dubais and Cincinattis but lose the Wimbledons and US Opens, court speed could be a factor though. If we were to get two matches here at the same surface, that would be a nice test of the theory that Federer is the more talented and better shot maker, but weaker mentally when it comes to the crunch.

Another thing to note is the the players are dead level on head to head, so a chance for Djokovic to edge ahead for the first time ever.

This year the RR match I'm looking ahead to most of all is Murray v Nadal. I do hope Andy can put on a really good show ; Rafa seemed full of motivation & enthusiasm against Stan, lots of smiles & joviality after the match, and I get the sense he would dearly like to push on & take this trophy for the first time. Plus, it would leave him with genuine optimism and no little confidence for the new season.

That said, tonight's match is also a big one, if only because any time Djoko and Fed meet, it's still 'an event'. In truth, Djokovic's real competition should not be coming from a 34 year old ! I doubt if any previous World No. 1 has EVER (??) contested two successive Slam Finals against a player as old as Federer. But that's as much an indication of the disappointingly poor level of the younger generation and absence of strong challengers, as it is the longevity of Federer. The man from Basel would of course loved to have added to his tally by capturing one of those two ; but the fact is you have to go back almost 50 years to find a Slam winner of such an age.

As HB points out, the h2h is exactly level, and so often in the past their matches have been pretty tight affairs. But with Novak's current all-conquering mood & form, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he wraps things up against Fed in two fairly quick, trouble-free sets tonight.

legendkiller suggests that there is actually only a big 'one' rather than big four and results across the season as a whole would certainly seem to justify this ! Of the other three who are currently 'making up the numbers', one could argue that only Federer has a respectable h2h v Djokovic over the last two years* ie 2014 & 2015 to date seasons :

Federer   5-7

Murray    1-10

Nadal      1-5

Wawrinka certainly deserves a very honourable mention, because although his numbers are 2-4, both those victories brought Slam titles of course.

*if we take a wider view by stretching the h2h to encompass the last 12 matches, the respective numbers are as follows :

Federer   5-7
Nadal      4-8
Murray    2-10
Wawrinka 2-10

Meanwhile we're heading for the first 3 setter this afternoon ......... Wink

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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:02 pm

Fed in 2 sets tonight.
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Post by bogbrush Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:10 pm

Federer has zero chance. If, as some say, the court will speed up then perhaps a chance later on but not tonight. Berdych couldn't even trouble Federer with a sat-up ball and judging by the scoreline is finding it difficult again against Nishikori.

I'd be happy if baked goods are avoided.
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Post by lags72 Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:15 pm

Yep .....Djokovic looks like he could win matches in his sleep these days......

Even the pro-Fed crowds around the globe don't bother Novak any more.

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Post by HM Murdock Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:25 pm

^I'll eat my proverbial hat if there are baked goods tonight! It will be competitive.

That said, I do think Djokovic is the clear favourite. With the possible exception of SABR, I don't think this surface magnifies any of the tools Federer has over Djokovic.

As a side point, at the end of 2011, Djokovic was 4 behind Federer in the h2h (10-14). Who would have expected that he would still be seeking to move ahead for the first time in the h2h eighteen matches and four whole years later?!

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Post by Calder106 Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:29 pm

bogbrush wrote:Federer has zero chance. If, as some say, the court will speed up then perhaps a chance later on but not tonight. Berdych couldn't even trouble Federer with a sat-up ball and judging by the scoreline is finding it difficult again against Nishikori.

I'd be happy if baked goods are avoided.

Q. You said against Berdych that the slow conditions probably helped you. How do you see that playing out against the other two guys in your pool?
ROGER FEDERER: Hmm? Well, I think it's a really good court for me personally. I think it's a really good court for Novak, too. Kei, I've played him here in the past. I play very well against him.

So it's just gotten to be a surface, maybe it's the end of the season, maybe it's the surface, we saw the faster results here last year. Seems like whoever takes charge of the baseline, and if you cannot serve your way out of trouble often enough, which is hard to do here because of the pace of the court, the guy from the baseline wins, the better one.

That's why we see some crushing scores, like Novak against Kei today. Last year, as well, Stan against Berdych. Maybe, Cilic. There was a match with Novak, maybe, so forth.

I think it suits Novak very well. For me, too. And Kei, I guess. Tomas somewhat has to prove himself on this surface.


Federer seems to like the court and doesn't see it as a disadvantage to him.

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Post by lags72 Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:37 pm

Great performance by Nishi.

He was really up for it today clap

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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 4:50 pm

Ninja delivers finally. Well done.

Now someone throw a chair at Djoko as he enters the court, save the tennis world Laugh
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Post by temporary21 Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:02 pm

Dunno if its quick enough, its fine against Berdych but passing has looked easier here than some places, rather Fed run round and smack some fh returns than fiddle around with Sabr here.

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:47 pm

If Djokovic beats Federer then that makes it simple.

Federer v Nishikori would be the group decider.

Djokovic v Berdych would be a dead rubber basically.

If Federer wins I think it would be way more complicated sadly. That's one reason to root for a Djokovic win anyway, if you need one.

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Post by temporary21 Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:57 pm

I guess neutrally wed want Djokovic to win. We do NOT want there something to be riding on Berdy Novak because that match is too easy to call.
Least a knock-out between the nish and Fed would have SOME intrigue

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Post by CAS Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:35 pm

Hoping for a cracker, I feel it's Fed's 'turn' to win but Novak is unreal in these conditions!

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Post by lags72 Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:45 pm

Novak unbeaten indoors since 2012.

Can't see it changing in his current mood & all-round splendiferousness.

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Post by lags72 Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:01 pm

HM Murdock wrote:^I'll eat my proverbial hat if there are baked goods tonight! It will be competitive.

................................................

As a side point, at the end of 2011, Djokovic was 4 behind Federer in the h2h (10-14). Who would have expected that he would still be seeking to move ahead for the first time in the h2h eighteen matches and four whole years later?!


Answer : Nobody.

(with the highly probable exception of R.Federer ......... Cool )

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:26 pm

But starting from beginning of 2012, I make it 4-1 to Djokovic in majors.
2-0 at world tour finals + a walkover
6-1 in 1500/2000 tournaments

Djokovic won the last 2 years at Indian Wells, arguably the biggest masters now.

Since Wimbledon 2012 Fed's wins were were at Cinci, Dubai, Monte Carlo. Shanghai.

In the 18 matches referred to above, it's 11-7 to Djokovic.

In finals it's 7-3; in semis it's 3-4 a notable difference.
Plus 1-0 in round robins.

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Post by bogbrush Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:55 pm

Calder106 wrote:
bogbrush wrote:Federer has zero chance. If, as some say, the court will speed up then perhaps a chance later on but not tonight. Berdych couldn't even trouble Federer with a sat-up ball and judging by the scoreline is finding it difficult again against Nishikori.

I'd be happy if baked goods are avoided.

Q. You said against Berdych that the slow conditions probably helped you. How do you see that playing out against the other two guys in your pool?
ROGER FEDERER: Hmm? Well, I think it's a really good court for me personally. I think it's a really good court for Novak, too. Kei, I've played him here in the past. I play very well against him.

So it's just gotten to be a surface, maybe it's the end of the season, maybe it's the surface, we saw the faster results here last year. Seems like whoever takes charge of the baseline, and if you cannot serve your way out of trouble often enough, which is hard to do here because of the pace of the court, the guy from the baseline wins, the better one.

That's why we see some crushing scores, like Novak against Kei today. Last year, as well, Stan against Berdych. Maybe, Cilic. There was a match with Novak, maybe, so forth.

I think it suits Novak very well. For me, too. And Kei, I guess. Tomas somewhat has to prove himself on this surface.


Federer seems to like the court and doesn't see it as a disadvantage to him.
I base my opinions on what I see and hear myself. As the said, the court was great for Fed against Berdych but Djokovic occupies the other end of the spectrum in this respect.
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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 7:56 pm

Players on court.

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Post by Guest Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:02 pm

Feck off Buckland!

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:03 pm

Hm looks like TV in Chile isn't carrying this live. I've got England vs France football/soccer though.

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Post by temporary21 Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:05 pm

Novak sitting in the chair with Roger Federer Towels Rolling Eyes. I guess theyre double sided with both names

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:07 pm

Looks like I've got a scheduled highlights or re-run in 4 hours though. So working out quite nicely. Please avoid mentioning the score on here for the next 6 hours. Thank you.

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Post by temporary21 Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:18 pm

I'll let you know that roger held his serve... Just. Early days look dodgy once the point gets going

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Post by Henman Bill Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:20 pm

ok in all seriousness I do want to avoid the score so you won't be subject to my inane witterings for the next 6 hours. signing off.

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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:23 pm

Come on Fed, just hold serve and some net play, you can beat him.
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Post by lags72 Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:45 pm

Federer doing enough to take care of almost everybody else.

But this is Djokovic, having the best year of his career, and showing why he is such a dominant Number 1. He really doesn't miss much, amazing length & accuracy.

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Post by CAS Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:50 pm

Fed really holding his own, he's chucked in some poor shots where he could have made things even more interesting

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Post by CAS Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:58 pm

What a half volley!!! That break was out of nowhere

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Post by LuvSports! Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:58 pm

WAHHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:00 pm

Holy swiss chocolateeeeee


Keep it up Fed, crush himmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
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Post by LuvSports! Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:02 pm

THROW A CHAIR AT HIM Wink

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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:03 pm

lags72 wrote: Djokovic, showing why he is such a dominant Number 1

Please refrain from these untrue stories, he ain't dominating anything, oh yes an old Fed, a injured Nadal, a off-form Andy.

Sure!!!! Laugh
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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:04 pm

LuvSports! wrote:THROW A CHAIR AT HIM Wink

Sit on it, lets make it heavier Laugh

Djoko racquet smash approaching fast, 4 BP for Fed

blow him off London nowwwww
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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:05 pm

Djoko broken to bits, again, come on don't let go, bagel this madafakaaaa
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Post by LuvSports! Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:06 pm

WOW

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Post by CAS Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:06 pm

Federer of 06 has turned up this evening, will he stay for the entire match?

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Post by temporary21 Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:08 pm

Bit of smash and grab. It's gone most exactly the same as Shanghai. Can he keep up
?

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Post by CAS Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:08 pm

Damn, Djokovic puts the breaks on

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Post by LuvSports! Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:08 pm

FECK

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Post by temporary21 Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:09 pm

Oh...

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Post by Jahu Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:09 pm

Djoko collects some of his bits and gets break back.

Come on Fed, don't go all Stan now melting.

Keep it up.
Jahu
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Post by LuvSports! Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:09 pm

temporary21 wrote:Bit of smash and grab. It's gone most exactly the same as Shanghai. Can he keep up
?
Shanghai?? 
From last year? The one where Feds outplayed djoko?

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Post by temporary21 Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:10 pm

Yeah . It was ateast literally the same score. Two breaks and dominated his serve

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Post by CAS Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:11 pm

temporary21 wrote:Bit of smash and grab. It's gone most exactly the same as Shanghai. Can he keep up
?

I wouldn't say so, I think Federer stole the first set then capitalised on a lull from Djokovic, Shanghai Federer looked the better player the whole match

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