2023 (expanded) Rugby World Cup for South Africa

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The Rugby World Cup should return to South Africa in 2023, and the tournament should be expanded to 24 teams.

The other three candidates are Ireland, France and Italy. Were any of these successful, that would mean a third straight World Cup in the Northern Hemisphere, even though it is the Southern Hemisphere which overwhelmingly dominates.

It would also entail a return to the Six Nations for the fifth time in just ten tournaments, which is a little ridiculous for a sport with over one hundred affiliated member nations and self-professed global pretentions.

Should it go to Ireland, that would also mean, technically-speaking, that the United Kingdom were involved to some degree in hosting the event for the fifth time, given at least a few of the games would be staged north of the border.

France, meanwhile, hosted the World Cup as recently as eight years ago, and was also a co-host in 1991 and 1999.

That leaves Italy, to my mind the most attractive of the European bids, as it is a newcomer to the heavyweight ranks with a large number of registered players. However, World Rugby might want to go with a more established rugby playing nation for its 10th World Cup. Japan is already facing problems as it prepares to stage the 2019 event, with its new Olympic Stadium having now been removed from the venue list.

As for South Africa, it has the biggest and best rugby-purpose stadia in the world - with the possible exception of England, which has just hosted the event for the second time. It has the second largest number of registered players (also behind England), and it is the second most successful rugby playing nation after New Zealand.

By the time 2023 rolls around, an entire generation will have grown up since the last time the tournament was held in South Africa. This, even though the 1995 installment was one of the most successful and spectacular World Cups to date.

So if New Zealand, Austrlalia and England can all host it twice, and France can be involved as either host or co-host on three occasions, why on earth shouldn't it return to South Africa in 2023? Why does World Rugby appear to have lost faith in the republic, having overlooked it for both 2011 and 2019?

It's time to break the cycle. The World Cup can not continue to return to Western Europe on every second occasion. That is a myopic approach and anathema to the globalization cause.

But it does need to return to the Southern Hemisphere in 2023 for what will be the first time in 12 years. Moreover, it needs to return to the African continent, one of the hotbeds of international rugby development in recent decades.

This leads me to my final point in South Africa's favour. World Rugby officials have raised the possibility of an expanded tournament, and this is undoubtedly overdue. Again, with its vast array of rugby-purpose stadia, South Africa's credentials are unsurpassed as a potential host nation for a 24-team World Cup.

The last - and only - increase in teams was from 16 to 20 in 1999. This appears to have been successful, judging by the improved performances of the fringe teams in New Zealand and England.

In fact, no centuries have been recorded since 2003, while Japan's stunning victory over the Springboks this year suggests the days of foregone conclusions is World Cup rugby may be drawing to a close.

That said, a lot of work needs to be done in the interim if the additional teams are going to be genuinely competitive. One of the biggest obstacles to the game's global development is the stratification of its international competitions.

Not only are the elite championships closed-shop, but there is little interaction between the top teams and the emerging nations in between World Cups. How on earth are the up-and-comers supposed to be competitive in the big exam if they have been denied the lessons to prepare in between?

New Zealand and Australia should be playing annual tests with the Pacific Islands and Japan, as should the Six Nations with their Eastern European neighbours. South Africa ought to engage Namibia in a 'Bledisloe Cup'-style annual trophy match, and Hong Kong and Korea should be playing in the Pacific Challenge tournament, alongside the Pacific Islands B teams and Argentina's 'Pampas,' with a possible view to future inclusion in the Pacific Nations Championship.

In addition to this, would it not be a fairly straightforward exercise for Six Nations teams to stop in for tests against Namibia and Uruguay enroute to South Africa and Argentina, respectively - as well as the Pacific Islands while touring New Zealand or Australia?

By the same token, how about the Southern Hemisphere teams playing Georgia, Romania or Russia on their Autumn tours to Europe? Argentina might even take on Spain or Portugal.

If rugby is to more forward, it needs to expand its World Cup, and this can only be successful with a more integrated international rugby calendar.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've worked out who Rowanbi/Quentin Poulson is from his time in the States.

Here he is explaining his concerns about small islands and the dangers of too many people arriving onto them at the one time.

Apparently, this testimony will be used as part of Quentin's bid for RWC 2023 on behalf of South Africa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg&list=RD7P-DqRpn8yw

I googled Rowan Quinn and all I found was a twitter account belonging to somebody who seems touched in the head. Weird stuff

Quentin Poulson brings up a selection of various profiles.

Yes - I was being facetious about our new poster, Rowanbi. You'll find this thread's topic running concurrently on a number of different rugby forums - coincidentally all using a variation of the name Rowan or Rowan Quinn or Rowan bi. Most have been banned.

Rowan Quinn is a NZ woman who had to get a restraining order after a falling out with "another person" and subsequently being pestered by "another person" across the internet with personal comments about her sexuality, views, etc. This "other person" now regularly uses her name across various blogs and fora and ends up getting banned.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/37127-2023-(expanded)-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa

http://thecrowd.foxsports.com.au/t5/Rugby-Union-Forums-Super-Rugby/2023-expanded-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa/m-p/79271

http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/41729-2023-expanded-world-cup-in-south-africa/page-12

I've seen every World Cup and in my opinion the 1995 one was the best of all.  Amazing in every way, it just had everything.  So many of those games stick in my mind even to this day:

Lomu appeared,
Japan saying they'd make the quarters and getting tonked by New Zealand by 145 points,
the first game between defending champions and Australia, and South Africa,
the massive fight between South Africa and Canada, with players getting sent home
Chester Williams being the black player in the south African team and scoring 4 tries against Samoa
the Argentinian flying wedge against England, and the first time they got their reputation for scrumaging,
Rob Andrews drop goal to knock Australia out,
Ivory Coast their story, and Max Brito getting paralised against Tonga
The swimming contest between France and South Africa
The alleged food poisoning of the New Zealand team before the Final
Ireland beating Wales by 1 point to knock them out in the pool stages, resulting in many players refusing to fly home because of threats,
Gavin Hastings retiring with his last act in a Scottish shirt to kick Emile N'Tamack in the head as he scored a try

I could probably make a whole page of things about that tournament, it stands out more than any other.  Just amazing memories!

South Africa for the tournament please!

Pot Hale wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've worked out who Rowanbi/Quentin Poulson is from his time in the States.

Here he is explaining his concerns about small islands and the dangers of too many people arriving onto them at the one time.

Apparently, this testimony will be used as part of Quentin's bid for RWC 2023 on behalf of South Africa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg&list=RD7P-DqRpn8yw

I googled Rowan Quinn and all I found was a twitter account belonging to somebody who seems touched in the head. Weird stuff

Quentin Poulson brings up a selection of various profiles.

Yes - I was being facetious about our new poster, Rowanbi.   You'll find this thread's topic running concurrently on a number of different rugby forums - coincidentally all using a variation of the name Rowan or Rowan Quinn or Rowan bi.  Most have been banned.

Rowan Quinn is a NZ woman who had to get a restraining order after a falling out with "another person" and subsequently being pestered by "another person" across the internet with personal comments about her sexuality, views, etc.  This "other person" now regularly uses her name across various blogs and fora and ends up getting banned.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/37127-2023-(expanded)-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa

http://thecrowd.foxsports.com.au/t5/Rugby-Union-Forums-Super-Rugby/2023-expanded-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa/m-p/79271

http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/41729-2023-expanded-world-cup-in-south-africa/page-12

Weird. Really weird. Nothing else can be said, eh mate?
All about one issue, too.
Just weird.
I now think the RWC should go to Ireland just to pish him or her off..............

Good research I knew something wasn't quite right thanks for confirming

Pot Hale wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've worked out who Rowanbi/Quentin Poulson is from his time in the States.

Here he is explaining his concerns about small islands and the dangers of too many people arriving onto them at the one time.

Apparently, this testimony will be used as part of Quentin's bid for RWC 2023 on behalf of South Africa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg&list=RD7P-DqRpn8yw

I googled Rowan Quinn and all I found was a twitter account belonging to somebody who seems touched in the head. Weird stuff

Quentin Poulson brings up a selection of various profiles.

Yes - I was being facetious about our new poster, Rowanbi.   You'll find this thread's topic running concurrently on a number of different rugby forums - coincidentally all using a variation of the name Rowan or Rowan Quinn or Rowan bi.  Most have been banned.

Rowan Quinn is a NZ woman who had to get a restraining order after a falling out with "another person" and subsequently being pestered by "another person" across the internet with personal comments about her sexuality, views, etc.  This "other person" now regularly uses her name across various blogs and fora and ends up getting banned.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/37127-2023-(expanded)-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa

http://thecrowd.foxsports.com.au/t5/Rugby-Union-Forums-Super-Rugby/2023-expanded-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa/m-p/79271

http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/41729-2023-expanded-world-cup-in-south-africa/page-12

Found one going back to 2008!

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s170.htm?221,9607114,9607994,quote=1

Quite disturbing actually.

Shifty wrote:I've seen every World Cup and in my opinion the 1995 one was the best of all.  Amazing in every way, it just had everything.  So many of those games stick in my mind even to this day:

Lomu appeared,
Japan saying they'd make the quarters and getting tonked by New Zealand by 145 points,
the first game between defending champions and Australia, and South Africa,
the massive fight between South Africa and Canada, with players getting sent home
Chester Williams being the black player in the south African team and scoring 4 tries against Samoa
the Argentinian flying wedge against England, and the first time they got their reputation for scrumaging,
Rob Andrews drop goal to knock Australia out,
Ivory Coast their story, and Max Brito getting paralised against Tonga
The swimming contest between France and South Africa
The alleged food poisoning of the New Zealand team before the Final
Ireland beating Wales by 1 point to knock them out in the pool stages, resulting in many players refusing to fly home because of threats,
Gavin Hastings retiring with his last act in a Scottish shirt to kick Emile N'Tamack in the head as he scored a try

I could probably make a whole page of things about that tournament, it stands out more than any other.  Just amazing memories!

South Africa for the tournament please!

With you all the way, Shifty, and thank you for sticking to the topic. I would certainly rate it the best of the 20th century World Cups - by some distance, and don't forget that dramatic final, culminating in Madiba handing over the trophy in front of an ecstatic Ellis Park sell-out crowd just a year after he had become the nation's first black president I was in NZ at the time but supported the Boks all the way and even won the company sweepstakes But I think a few of my mates down there never quite forgave me

Knowsit17 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've worked out who Rowanbi/Quentin Poulson is from his time in the States.

Here he is explaining his concerns about small islands and the dangers of too many people arriving onto them at the one time.

Apparently, this testimony will be used as part of Quentin's bid for RWC 2023 on behalf of South Africa.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNZczIgVXjg&list=RD7P-DqRpn8yw

I googled Rowan Quinn and all I found was a twitter account belonging to somebody who seems touched in the head. Weird stuff

Quentin Poulson brings up a selection of various profiles.

Yes - I was being facetious about our new poster, Rowanbi.   You'll find this thread's topic running concurrently on a number of different rugby forums - coincidentally all using a variation of the name Rowan or Rowan Quinn or Rowan bi.  Most have been banned.

Rowan Quinn is a NZ woman who had to get a restraining order after a falling out with "another person" and subsequently being pestered by "another person" across the internet with personal comments about her sexuality, views, etc.  This "other person" now regularly uses her name across various blogs and fora and ends up getting banned.

http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/37127-2023-(expanded)-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa

http://thecrowd.foxsports.com.au/t5/Rugby-Union-Forums-Super-Rugby/2023-expanded-Rugby-World-Cup-for-South-Africa/m-p/79271

http://www.daimenhutchison.com/rugby/index.php/topic/41729-2023-expanded-world-cup-in-south-africa/page-12

Found one going back to 2008!

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read/s170.htm?221,9607114,9607994,quote=1

Quite disturbing actually.

psych stuff.

Rowanbi wrote:

Shifty wrote:I've seen every World Cup and in my opinion the 1995 one was the best of all.  Amazing in every way, it just had everything.  So many of those games stick in my mind even to this day:

Lomu appeared,
Japan saying they'd make the quarters and getting tonked by New Zealand by 145 points,
the first game between defending champions and Australia, and South Africa,
the massive fight between South Africa and Canada, with players getting sent home
Chester Williams being the black player in the south African team and scoring 4 tries against Samoa
the Argentinian flying wedge against England, and the first time they got their reputation for scrumaging,
Rob Andrews drop goal to knock Australia out,
Ivory Coast their story, and Max Brito getting paralised against Tonga
The swimming contest between France and South Africa
The alleged food poisoning of the New Zealand team before the Final
Ireland beating Wales by 1 point to knock them out in the pool stages, resulting in many players refusing to fly home because of threats,
Gavin Hastings retiring with his last act in a Scottish shirt to kick Emile N'Tamack in the head as he scored a try

I could probably make a whole page of things about that tournament, it stands out more than any other.  Just amazing memories!

South Africa for the tournament please!

With you all the way, Shifty, and thank you for sticking to the topic. I would certainly rate it the best of the 20th century World Cups - by some distance, and don't forget that dramatic final, culminating in Madiba handing over the trophy in front of an ecstatic Ellis Park sell-out crowd just a year after he had become the nation's first black president I was in NZ at the time but supported the Boks all the way and even won the company sweepstakes But I think a few of my mates down there never quite forgave me

Your fellow countrymen didn't agree with you supporting the opposing team playing your own country in the final, Quentin? And you've never even been to South Africa.

What were they thinking....

Oh - and now our posts are being reported.

This follows a similar pattern.

I reported the juvenile garbage that is clogging up this otherwise fascinating discussion, Bartholomew, you big super hero you.

Now, let's see if we can get it back on track:

I think it would be fair to say that any number of countries could host the Rugby World Cup successfully. So World Rugby needs to look at what is in the interests of the sport and its development. The organization has a self-professed mandate to globalize. Repeatedly staging its showpiece event in one small corner of Europe runs contrary to that cause. Continental rotation is far more conducive to globalization. Regarding TV audiences, SA is in a similar time zone to Europe. South Africa has the second largest rugby community in the world, and it is the second most successful rugby playing nation in the world. It is also the only major rugby playing nation with a non-European majority. A World Cup in South Africa would generate interest in neighboring countries and benefit the sport throughout the continent. As regards South Africa & Ireland head-to-head, the former has vastly superior stadia, about half of it rugby purpose, and most of its football stadia was upgraded for the 2010 FIFA World Cup, when a few more stadiums were actually built. Ireland has only one large rugby stadium, and would be reliant on mostly Gaelic and hurling stadiums, some of them ancient, others relatively small. South Africa is a large nation - though not giant - with many large cities. Even in the event of expansion, the tournament could be nicely spread out with fans able to bus it between venues. Ireland is geographically very small and only has two major cities. South Africa has an average June temperature of 16 degrees with 9 hours of sunshine and only a 2% chance of rain (Kruger Park taken as the example). Dublin and Belfast have average October temperatures of 10 and 9, respectively, 3 & 2 hours of sunshine, and a 60% and 74% chance of rain respectively. Drier weather conditions make for firm grounds and more open and expansive rugby. Wet conditions make for a dreary supporters' tour, IMHO. The main argument against South Africa is crime, yet they host a leg of the World 7s series without problems, they hosted the 2010 FIFA World Cup without problems, and they staged a spectacular and memorable RWC in 1995 without problems. By the time 2023 rolls around, an entire generation of Africans will have grown up without having ever had the opportunity to witness the event.

Secretly I dont think Rowan wants the 2023 tournament to go to South Africa, so he prosecutes circular arguements for SA via battering everyone to death with his keyboard.

Final result being, everyone else just wants the tournament to go anywhere but South Africa.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Secretly I dont think Rowan wants the 2023 tournament to go to South Africa, so he prosecutes  circular arguements for SA via battering everyone to death with his keyboard.

Final result being, everyone else just wants the tournament to go anywhere but South Africa.

At least that was slightly funny

You are a bit obsessed.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You are a bit obsessed.

A bit is an understatement.

"Juvenile garbage" from a guy who still is obsessing over someone so much that he feels compelled to keep using her name as his.

Getting back on track = so I can re-state the same stuff over and over.

I flagged this early on in this thread.

Bottom line is don't feed the troll. Let the mods decide for themselves.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You are a bit obsessed.

I think I'll take that as a sign of victory.

But it was a good discussion and hopefully we all learned a few things from it and developed our perspectives on the issue.

Rowanbi wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:You are a bit obsessed.

I think I'll take that as a sign of victory.

But it was a good discussion and hopefully we all learned a few things from it and developed our perspectives on the issue.

Yes. You're an obsessive internet pest who seeks to endlessly impose his views on others through inaccurate statements, ignoring facts, and circular arguments. In short - a troll of the highest order.

As many people have said to you on here and other fora, nothing has changed in the last seven years. You're still the same.

Yup we learned something about you.

Just on the crime issue, while undoubtedly a valid concern in South Africa, it should be noted 18 of the 40 most dangerous cities in the world are in Brazil, which hosted the FIFA World Cup a couple of years back and is also hosting the Olympics this year. SA has just one city in the top 40 - Cape Town - while the US has four, headed by St Louis. In fact, I read today that there were 242 shootings in Chicago last month, as well as 51 murders, and the governor has been asked to declare a state of emergency. Overall South Africa's national homicide rate is marginally worse than Brazil's, and about 10 times America's national average, but there has been a significant improvement since the turn of the century when the nation was legitimately regarded as the 'crime capital of the world.' Hopefully that trend continues.

Rowanbi wrote:Just on the crime issue, while undoubtedly a valid concern in South Africa, it should be noted 18 of the 40 most dangerous cities in the world are in Brazil, which hosted the FIFA World Cup a couple of years back and is also hosting the Olympics this year. SA has just one city in the top 40 - Cape Town - while the US has four, headed by St Louis. In fact, I read today that there were 242 shootings in Chicago last month, as well as 51 murders, and the governor has been asked to declare a state of emergency. Overall South Africa's national homicide rate is marginally worse than Brazil's, and about 10 times America's national average, but there has been a significant improvement since the turn of the century when the nation was legitimately regarded as the 'crime capital of the world.' Hopefully that trend continues.

Nope. Its getting worse.

Sin é wrote:

Rowanbi wrote:Just on the crime issue, while undoubtedly a valid concern in South Africa, it should be noted 18 of the 40 most dangerous cities in the world are in Brazil, which hosted the FIFA World Cup a couple of years back and is also hosting the Olympics this year. SA has just one city in the top 40 - Cape Town - while the US has four, headed by St Louis. In fact, I read today that there were 242 shootings in Chicago last month, as well as 51 murders, and the governor has been asked to declare a state of emergency. Overall South Africa's national homicide rate is marginally worse than Brazil's, and about 10 times America's national average, but there has been a significant improvement since the turn of the century when the nation was legitimately regarded as the 'crime capital of the world.' Hopefully that trend continues.

Nope. Its getting worse.

Not according to the stats I looked at, including Wiki. There has been a degree of fluctuation, of course, but the overall trend since 2000 has been a significant decline, from approx. 50 murders per 100,000 citizens annually to approx. 30 last year. Brazil's stands at 27.

You are talking about crime, but giving stats for murder This is a Crime Index/Safety index

[th]Rank[/th][th]Country[/th][th]Crime Index[/th][th]Safety Index[/th]

1	Venezuela	84.44	15.56
2	South Sudan	81.32	18.68
3	South Africa	78.43	21.57
4	Papua New Guinea	77.58	22.42
5	Honduras	76.43	23.57
6	Nigeria	74.14	25.86
7	Trinidad And Tobago	72.60	27.40
8	El Salvador	72.04	27.96
9	Brazil	71.23	28.77
10	Kenya	69.49	30.51

45

Ireland

48.39

51.61

Crime rates in South Africa

Level of crime		85.74	Very High
Crime increasing in the past 3 years		82.25	Very High
Worries home broken and things stolen		82.26	Very High
Worries being mugged or robbed		81.26	Very High
Worries car stolen		77.11	High
Worries things from car stolen		81.05	Very High
Worries attacked		76.21	High
Worries being insulted		63.46	High
Worries being subject to a physical attack because of your skin colour, ethnic origin or religion		64.80	High
Problem people using or dealing drugs		74.66	High
Problem property crimes such as vandalism and theft		81.02	Very High
Problem violent crimes such as assault and armed robbery		85.33	Very High
Problem corruption and bribery		88.04	Very High

Crime rates in Ireland

Level of crime		52.63	Moderate
Crime increasing in the past 3 years		68.54	High
Worries home broken and things stolen		49.48	Moderate
Worries being mugged or robbed		44.45	Moderate
Worries car stolen		38.10	Low
Worries things from car stolen		48.80	Moderate
Worries attacked		47.30	Moderate
Worries being insulted		47.50	Moderate
Worries being subject to a physical attack because of your skin colour, ethnic origin or religion		28.98	Low
Problem people using or dealing drugs		61.36	High
Problem property crimes such as vandalism and theft		56.12	Moderate
Problem violent crimes such as assault and armed robbery		44.76	Moderate
Problem corruption and bribery		45.60	Moderate

Yes, you are right. I mentioned crime and only gave the stats for murder. Btw, there were a whole bunch of Latin American countries ahead of South Africa on the list. SA came in around 9th or 10th on most of the sites I looked at, including Wiki.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to argue South Africa's case here, and this is the only area in which they come off very badly in comparison to Ireland and the other bidding countries.

But as far as the stats for homicides go, South Africa is only marginally worse than Brazil, which is hosting this year's Olympics (2 years after hosting the FIFA World Cup). & the homicide rate, at least, is declining fairly steadily. In fact, at this rate they should have fewer per capita than Brazil by the 2020s.

Those were the only stats I looked at. Appreciate your input on the others.

Worries being insulted

Have you ever been to Liverpool?

Well here are the figures I found, 2012 homocide rate per 100,000 pop. per country.
Ireland...1.2
USA.......3.8
Brazil......25.2
South Africa...31.0.

The Olympics are only on in Brazil for two weeks whereas the World cup is an event that runs for a month (For us Kiwis) so your far more likely to get murdered at a rugby World cup in South Africa than you are at an Olympic games in Brazil.

aucklandlaurie wrote:Well here are the figures I found, 2012 homocide rate per 100,000 pop. per country.
Ireland...1.2
USA.......3.8
Brazil......25.2
South Africa...31.0.

The Olympics are only on in Brazil for two weeks whereas the World cup is an event that runs for a month (For us Kiwis) so your far more  likely to get murdered at a rugby World cup in South Africa than you are at an Olympic games in Brazil.

Yes, as mentioned, South Africa's murder rate is dropping, though it remains pretty horrific. The Wiki figures and others I looked at were from last year, and generally had South Africa around 30 and Brazil in the high 20s. As state, given the current trajectory, South Africa's murder rate should at least have dropped below Brazil's by the 2020s. In any case, there's no denying the problem, the only point I'm making is that there isn't a great deal of difference between Brazil and South Africa when it comes to the risk factor, yet these are the two nations which have staged the last two FIFA World Cups without being effected by the issue, and Rio will stage this year's Olympics - at which rugby 7s will feature. As regards corrupt government, I think Zuma must be on his way out fairly soon, the way things are going over there.

So basically the Olympics and the Soccer World Cup are going to country where crime is at a dangerously high level (I have friends who have been the victim of serious crime in Brazil, though thankfully without physical harm) and that is an argument for having the Rugby World Cup in a country with an even worse record?

I have an idea lets not follow the blind, and corrupt, Olympic and Soccer committees and award it to a country that is fairly dangerous, lets award it to a country that is fairly safe and people can spend their time in a relaxed atmosphere - just a thought !

geoff999rugby wrote:So basically the Olympics and the Soccer World Cup are going to country where crime is at a dangerously high level (I have friends who have been the victim of serious crime in Brazil, though thankfully without physical harm) and that is an argument for having the Rugby World Cup in a country with an even worse record?

I have an idea lets not follow the blind, and corrupt, Olympic and Soccer committees and award it to a country that is fairly dangerous, lets award it to a country that is fairly safe and people can spend their time in a relaxed atmosphere - just a thought !

No, Geoff, it is not an argument for staging the Rugby World Cup in South Africa, as noted on a number of occasions. It is simply to point out the facts - Brazil and South Africa are both dangerous countries (I've been to Brazil without any problems personally) with quite similar murder rates - undeniably high - and yet these are the nations which have staged the last two FIFA World Cups, without the crime factor being a problem, and Rio will host this year's Olympics. So, while by no means an argument for South Africa, I just don't think it will be the definitive argument against.

In almost every other conceivable way, South Africa must stack up as favourite. But the crime rate issue could certainly be a leveller in the final analysis. They'll have to weigh the crime issue against the vastly superior stadia, the standing of one of the game's Super Powers and the continental rotation factor, as well as South Africa's geographical and climatic advantages over Ireland.

Deluded. Seek help.

Rowanbi wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:So basically the Olympics and the Soccer World Cup are going to country where crime is at a dangerously high level (I have friends who have been the victim of serious crime in Brazil, though thankfully without physical harm) and that is an argument for having the Rugby World Cup in a country with an even worse record?

I have an idea lets not follow the blind, and corrupt, Olympic and Soccer committees and award it to a country that is fairly dangerous, lets award it to a country that is fairly safe and people can spend their time in a relaxed atmosphere - just a thought !

No, Geoff, it is not an argument for staging the Rugby World Cup in South Africa, as noted on a number of occasions. It is simply to point out the facts - Brazil and South Africa are both dangerous countries (I've been to Brazil without any problems personally) with quite similar murder rates - undeniably high - and yet these are the nations which have staged the last two FIFA World Cups, without the crime factor being a problem, and Rio will host this year's Olympics. So, while by no means an argument for South Africa, I just don't think it will be the definitive argument against.

In almost every other conceivable way, South Africa must stack up as favourite. But the crime rate issue could certainly be a leveller in the final analysis. They'll have to weigh the crime issue against the vastly superior stadia, the standing of one of the game's Super Powers and the continental rotation factor, as well as South Africa's geographical and climatic advantages over Ireland.

Any evidence to prove that security / crime wasn't an issue (apart from the US Dollars 886m that was spent on security by Brazil which doesn't include the millions that other countries like the US spent on protecting their citizens).

If I was looking for a World Sports association to hold up as a good example and in support of any opinion, then I think the last one I would use would be that of FIFA.

I can see far more merit in suggesting that the last thing World Rugby should do is follow the decision making of Sepp Blatter and his gang of suspended sports administraters, especially when their irregularities related more to the hosting of World Cups than any other thing.

Leaving aside the relatively low attendances (77%), for RWC 1995 in South Africa, it is interesting to look at more recent attendances at international matches in South Africa in the last 5-7 years against various teams, stadia used and attendances achieved.

Some examples.

Eastern Province Kings v Wales 2014
Attendance 11,500 in the Nelson Mandela Stadium 52,000

First test
37,000 in Kings Park 52,000

Second test
25,000 in Mbombela 41,000

SA v World XV
31,000 in Newlands (52,000)

Royal XV vs B&I Lions 2009
12,500 in Bafokeng (44,000)
Golden Lions vs Lions
22,000 in Ellis Park (62,000)

First test
47,000 in Kings Park (52,000)
Second test
Full house in Pretoria
Third test
58,000 in Ellis Park (62,000)

RC 2012
88,739 South Africa vs New Zealand
44,463 South Africa vs Australia
38,843 South Africa vs Argentina
2014

RC 2013
SA v Arg
52,000 in Soccer Stadium (94,000)
SA v Aus
46,000 in Newlands (52,000)
SA v NZ 60,000 in Ellis

RC 2014
SA v Arg 30,000 in Pretoria 52,000
SA v Aus 45,000 in Newlands (52,000)
SA v NZ - full house in Ellis (62,000)

RC 2015
SA v NZ
Full house in Ellis Park
SA v Arg 27,000 in Kings Park (52,000)

New Zealand clearly get the crowds out. The numbers start to fall considerably for other teams with attendances ranging from 20% to 85%

Crowd numbers, excl NZ, would appear to be in the 30-45k range for RC matches.

Even the draw of Lions tour tests only managed to get a full house on one occasion. And June tours with teams such as Wales, the numbers drop into mid twenties/early thirties.

Any evidence to prove that security / crime wasn't an issue (apart from the US Dollars 886m that was spent on security by Brazil which doesn't include the millions that other countries like the US spent on protecting their citizens).

I'm not a private investigator, but if the 2014 event was effected by crime in any way, there certainly wasn't much news about it. Of course, a lot of money was spent on security. I think that's becoming quite common these days around the world due to the (exaggerated) threat of terrorism.

But I did come across these articles about South Africa's crime-free 2010 World Cup:

Sceptics predicted the World Cup would be a boom time for criminals in South Africa. In fact, the football appears to have led to a dramatic fall in violent offences. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/09/world-cup-football-south-africa-crime-falls

Much has been said in the build-up to the World Cup about South Africa's crime problem and the threats to visiting supporters. While crime is a serious problem here, it needs to be put in perspective. The country's murder rate has decreased from 67.9 per 100,000 in 1995 to 37.3 in 2009. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/7748717/World-Cup-2010-crime-threat-to-visitors-is-exaggerated.html

eople forget that South Africa has many years of experience organizing large, international sporting events and dealing with the safety and security issues that come with them. Last year, the Rainbow Nation hosted the 2009 ICC Champions Trophy, the FIFA Confederations Cup and the 2009 Indian Premier League. No incidents of visitors being attacked during those events have been reported. Other major past events include the 2007 World Twenty20 Championships, the A1 Grand Prix (since 2006), Fina Swimming World Cup (since 2003), the Red Bull Big Wave Africa (since 1998), various six-star rated surfing events, the 2006 Paralympics Swimming World Champs, the Women's World Cup of Golf (2005-2008), the 2003 Cricket World Cup, the 1998 World Cup of Athletics, the 1996 World Cup of Golf, the 1996 African Cup of Nations, and the 1995 Rugby World Cup. http://www.worldpress.org/africa/3490.cfm

aucklandlaurie wrote:If I was looking for a World Sports association to hold up as a good example and in support of any opinion, then I think the last one I would use would be that of FIFA.

I can see far more merit in suggesting that the last thing World Rugby should do is follow the decision making of Sepp Blatter and his gang of suspended sports administraters, especially when their irregularities related more to the hosting of World Cups than any other thing.

I don't think anyone was trying to hold up FIFA as a good example. I actually agree with your comments about them. The only point made was that the last two FIFA World Cups were held in South Africa and Brazil, and appear to have been crime free and successful.

By the way, the case against FIFA relates to Russia and Qatar as the next two World Cup hosts, and media attention has focused on the latter; almost certainly the result of bribery. Yes, South Africa 2010 has also been implicated, but so has Germany 2006. You may remember, NZ's Oceania representative mysteriously went against the wishes of his own association and cast the deciding vote - against South Africa.

So you can put your trumpet away on Sepp Blatter and his gang. That's got nothing to do with it. & I hardly think World Rugby can be held up as a paragon of virtue in this respect either. I personally regard them as a lot worse, even if their unscrupulous decisions on the 2011 and 2015 host nations were the result of backroom wheeling and dealing (ie vote swapping) on the central committee - and not due to bribery.

Of course rugby has an awful lot to learn from football. Its own World Cup is modelled entirely on the FIFA tournament. The phenomenal success of the FIFA tournament was its inspiration. Football exploded in popularity in the post-War era entirely because of its World Cup. This tournament, of course, was not held in the same country twice until its 13th edition in 1986 (when Mexico stepped in as a late replacement for Colombia), and alternated between Europe and the Americas right up until 2002, when a policy of continental rotation was implemented. It was a laudable decision in spite of today's sad state of affairs (brought about by a few greedy individuals in influential positions).

True should go to a new host.

Is this still happening?

Leaving aside the relatively low attendances (77%), for RWC 1995 in South Africa, it is interesting to look at more recent attendances

It's already been pointed out that South Africa's average attendances for the 1995 RWC were higher than NZ's in 2011. Astonishing really, given that was only the third World Cup, in the amateur age, and 2011 was the 7th, well into the professional age.

It's also been pointed out that South Africa gets the best average attendances at club rugby games of any nation in the world.

Crowds would not be a problem for a Rugby World Cup in South Africa or Ireland in the modern era. There's no question about that. It simply comes down to who has the most stadiums and the biggest population to fill them.

Of course, rugby is not football, and there are always going to be games that do not fill the staidums. How about this at Ireland's Aviva Stadium, for example:

Twitter reacts to very poor crowd at the Aviva Stadium for Ireland-Georgia encounter:
Given the situation in Group D, the attendance at Aviva Stadium tonight is staggering. No official figure has been given yet but reports suggest that just over 30,000 seats are filled in side the stadium meaning that 40pc of the stadium is empty.
The fact that it's a Monday night game and it comes after a bumper sporting weekend may be factors but it's disappointing nonetheless.

reland were left counting the cost of a 23-21 defeat by South Africa in more ways than one after the fixture failed to produce the usual sell-out crowd in Dublin. A match against the world champions at the start of a World Cup season ought to have been a sure-fire guarantee of a full house, especially as Saturday’s match was Ireland’s first at their traditional Lansdowne Road home since the ground’s stunning 410 million euros (357 million pounds, 578 million US dollars) redevelopment. But instead only 35,517 spectators turned up for the showpiece occasion, leaving some 15,000 tickets unsold. http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/rugby/2010/11/07/poor-crowds-compound-ireland-s-bok-loss

The Pacific Cup holders’ Haka was greeted by only a 30,955 crowd at the Aviva Stadium with pre-match fears of another low attendance proving correct. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/ireland/8129669/Ireland-20-Samoa-10-match-report.html

Italy and Ireland favourites.

Not according to this: http://www.betasia.com/press-releases/515958/ireland-21-to-host-rugby-world-cup-2023

To host RWC 2023
13/8 South Africa
2/1 Ireland
6/1 France
6/1 Italy

It's a bit outdated, but the only one I could find at a quick search. I shouldn't imagine it's changed much. No reason why it should have.

Well Italy and Ireland are just better bids, that'll be why.

Rowanbi wrote:Any evidence to prove that security / crime wasn't an issue (apart from the US Dollars 886m that was spent on security by Brazil which doesn't include the millions that other countries like the US spent on protecting their citizens).

I'm not a private investigator, but if the 2014 event was effected by crime in any way, there certainly wasn't much news about it. Of course, a lot of money was spent on security. I think that's becoming quite common these days around the world due to the (exaggerated) threat of terrorism.

But I did come across these articles about South Africa's crime-free 2010 World Cup:

Sceptics predicted the World Cup would be a boom time for criminals in South Africa. In fact, the football appears to have led to a dramatic fall in violent offences. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/09/world-cup-football-south-africa-crime-falls

Much has been said in the build-up to the World Cup about South Africa's crime problem and the threats to visiting supporters. While crime is a serious problem here, it needs to be put in perspective. The country's murder rate has decreased from 67.9 per 100,000 in 1995 to 37.3 in 2009. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/7748717/World-Cup-2010-crime-threat-to-visitors-is-exaggerated.html

eople forget that South Africa has many years of experience organizing large, international sporting events and dealing with the safety and security issues that come with them. Last year, the Rainbow Nation hosted the 2009 ICC Champions Trophy, the FIFA Confederations Cup and the 2009 Indian Premier League. No incidents of visitors being attacked during those events have been reported. Other major past events include the 2007 World Twenty20 Championships, the A1 Grand Prix (since 2006), Fina Swimming World Cup (since 2003), the Red Bull Big Wave Africa (since 1998), various six-star rated surfing events, the 2006 Paralympics Swimming World Champs, the Women's World Cup of Golf (2005-2008), the 2003 Cricket World Cup, the 1998 World Cup of Athletics, the 1996 World Cup of Golf, the 1996 African Cup of Nations, and the 1995 Rugby World Cup. http://www.worldpress.org/africa/3490.cfm

That article was written in Jan 2010, PRIOR to the football world cup in SA

The paragraph you forgot to post:

2010 World Cup safety precautions
The South African government and police are very much aware of the country's high level of crime and the fact that large events like the World Cup drive up criminal activity. They also know that the world will be scrutinizing South Africa with regard to crime during the event, and that every incident will end up on the front page.


To protect both visitors and locals, 50,000 extra cops are being trained, and all 10 of the World Cup stadiums will boast a police station and various police holding cells to lock up criminals and misbehaving tourists. Long distance trains will be fitted with holding cells and a mobile police station. In addition, 54 special 2010 World Cup courts are being established to deal with crime effectively. The South African police service will also work closely with Interpol, police services and private security companies from various European countries, the anti-terrorist unit, and the army.

Sin é wrote:

Rowanbi wrote:Any evidence to prove that security / crime wasn't an issue (apart from the US Dollars 886m that was spent on security by Brazil which doesn't include the millions that other countries like the US spent on protecting their citizens).

I'm not a private investigator, but if the 2014 event was effected by crime in any way, there certainly wasn't much news about it. Of course, a lot of money was spent on security. I think that's becoming quite common these days around the world due to the (exaggerated) threat of terrorism.

But I did come across these articles about South Africa's crime-free 2010 World Cup:

Sceptics predicted the World Cup would be a boom time for criminals in South Africa. In fact, the football appears to have led to a dramatic fall in violent offences. http://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jul/09/world-cup-football-south-africa-crime-falls

Much has been said in the build-up to the World Cup about South Africa's crime problem and the threats to visiting supporters. While crime is a serious problem here, it needs to be put in perspective. The country's murder rate has decreased from 67.9 per 100,000 in 1995 to 37.3 in 2009. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/travelnews/7748717/World-Cup-2010-crime-threat-to-visitors-is-exaggerated.html

eople forget that South Africa has many years of experience organizing large, international sporting events and dealing with the safety and security issues that come with them. Last year, the Rainbow Nation hosted the 2009 ICC Champions Trophy, the FIFA Confederations Cup and the 2009 Indian Premier League. No incidents of visitors being attacked during those events have been reported. Other major past events include the 2007 World Twenty20 Championships, the A1 Grand Prix (since 2006), Fina Swimming World Cup (since 2003), the Red Bull Big Wave Africa (since 1998), various six-star rated surfing events, the 2006 Paralympics Swimming World Champs, the Women's World Cup of Golf (2005-2008), the 2003 Cricket World Cup, the 1998 World Cup of Athletics, the 1996 World Cup of Golf, the 1996 African Cup of Nations, and the 1995 Rugby World Cup. http://www.worldpress.org/africa/3490.cfm

That article was written in Jan 2010, PRIOR to the football world cup in SA

The paragraph you forgot to post:

2010 World Cup safety precautions
The South African government and police are very much aware of the country's high level of crime and the fact that large events like the World Cup drive up criminal activity. They also know that the world will be scrutinizing South Africa with regard to crime during the event, and that every incident will end up on the front page.


To protect both visitors and locals, 50,000 extra cops are being trained, and all 10 of the World Cup stadiums will boast a police station and various police holding cells to lock up criminals and misbehaving tourists. Long distance trains will be fitted with holding cells and a mobile police station. In addition, 54 special 2010 World Cup courts are being established to deal with crime effectively. The South African police service will also work closely with Interpol, police services and private security companies from various European countries, the anti-terrorist unit, and the army.

I didn't forget to post anything. It's all there in the links. What was your point, exactly? That they put a lot of manpower into security? Plenty of events do. I've already mentioned the reaction to the perceived threat of terrorism ever since 9/11. & then there was the football hooligan issue of the late 20th century. The bottom line is, South Africa did a great job on security at the 2010 FIFA World Cup, and neither has crime been an issue at any of the other multitude of international sports events they've hosted lately . . .

And you're an internet troll


Somethings don't change - including your Internet posting in over 10 years.

Speaking of Brazil, I see they've just been narrowly beaten by Chile in the opening game of the all-new Americas 6 Nations Championship in Vina del Mar. 25-22. Not a bad effort given they were the away team.

Deluded

South Africa is a dangerous country - Ireland, by comparison, is safe.
Ireland has stadia more than big enough to stage the tournament - not a problem.
Ireland can guarantee a level of local interest without equal.
Talk of NH/SH swapping is totally bogus on too counts - there are less countries in the SH and to swap 50/50 is a unfair bias to the SH countries - basically guarantees 50% of all WC are in one of the 4 Rugby Championship teams.
Also organizationally Japan is attached to the SH not the NH.
How you work out SA is geographically preferable to Ireland is totally beyond me - SA is close to no other leading rugby nations, Irleand is close to plenty.
Climate is subjective - playing in 80 degrees + is not great unless you are used to it

geoff999rugby wrote:Deluded

South Africa is a dangerous country - Ireland, by comparison, is safe.
Ireland has stadia more than big enough to stage the tournament - not a problem.
Ireland can guarantee a level of local interest without equal.
Talk of NH/SH swapping is totally bogus on too counts - there are less countries in the SH and to swap 50/50 is a unfair bias to the SH countries - basically guarantees 50% of all WC are in one of the 4 Rugby Championship teams.
Also organizationally Japan is attached to the SH not the NH.
How you work out SA is geographically preferable to Ireland is totally beyond me - SA is close to no other leading rugby nations, Irleand is close to plenty.
Climate is subjective - playing in 80 degrees + is not great unless you are used to it

What about altitude?

South Africa is a dangerous country - Ireland, by comparison, is safe.

Agreed. But all indications are that won't effect a RWC in either country. SA has staged countless international events, including soccer & rugby World Cups, not one of them effected by crime, and the murder rate (at least) is significantly lower now than it was at the turn of the century - and continuing to fall.

Ireland has stadia more than big enough to stage the tournament - not a problem.

Won't disagree there either. But South Africa has far more, bigger and better stadiums. Aviva notwithstanding, Ireland has no major rugby purpose stadia and will be reliant on Gaelic football and hurling venues. South Africa has literally dozens of major rugby stadiums, as well as dozens of easily convertible football stadiums - many updated (and a few actually built) for the 2010 FIFA World Cup.

Ireland can guarantee a level of local interest without equal.

I don't think there are any grounds for suggesting this. The most passionate (tier 1) rugby nations in the world have traditionally been NZ, SA & Wales. NZ & Wales are also the two tier 1 nations with the largest rugby-playing communities per capita, while South Africa has the largest rugby-playing community overall after England.

Talk of NH/SH swapping is totally bogus on too counts - there are less countries in the SH and to swap 50/50 is a unfair bias to the SH countries - basically guarantees 50% of all WC are in one of the 4 Rugby Championship teams.

Which is why they did actually alternate it, without fail, for the first 8 tournaments, I suppose? Of course, it couldn't go on forever, and Japan were awarded 2019 - which I don't begrudge - but if there is a move away from hemispheric alternation, surely it should be toward continental rotation, and not returning the event to the same small corner of Europe on every second occasion. Time to cut the umbilical cord, wouldn't you say?

Also organizationally Japan is attached to the SH not the NH.

Total rubbish. So Japan will have a team in Super Rugby. In case you didn't notice, Canada now competes in an Americas 6 Nations with 4 South American teams. Does that attach Canada to the Southern Hemisphere too? This is the biggest grasping-at-straws argument of the lot. Japan is in the Northern Hemisphere, it is practically the antipodes of SA, and it is roughly as far from NZ and Australia as SA is from Britain and France.

How you work out SA is geographically preferable to Ireland is totally beyond me - SA is close to no other leading rugby nations, Irleand is close to plenty.

You've conveniently disqualified the entire global community apart from Western Europe with that comment. South Africa is not as isolated as NZ or Australia, both of whom have hosted twice. It is surrounded by nations with significant rugby playing communities, notably serial RWC qualifier Namibia, former RWC participant Zimbabwe, Madagascar - where rugby is the national sport, and Swaziland which has one of the largest rugby-playing communities per capita in the world. South Africa's geographical advantage over Ireland comes in terms of size, obviously, though it's not so huge that travelling fans wouldn't be able to bus it between venues when necessary.

Climate is subjective - playing in 80 degrees + is not great unless you are used to it

Deluded is a good word to describe someone who thinks Ireland has an advantage over South Africa in terms of climate. Winter temperatures in South Africa overall range from around 8 degrees celsius to mid-twenties (mid-40s to mid-70s farenheit). That's about perfect for rugby, I think, and certainly not too hot. Winter temperatures in Ireland overall average from around 6 degrees celsius to a maximum of 14 (43-48 farenheit). Not too bad either, though there are substantially fewer sunshine hours and a far greater likelihood of rain.

What about altitude?

Just when I thought all the grasping-at-straws arguments had been exhausted, along comes this one What about it? Do we expect every World Cup to be staged in the exact same conditions we ourselves are used to? Do you think the South Africans and Aussies revel in the slush and mud of Britain & Ireland? Has it occurred to you that the players from those two mighty provinces, Northern Transvaal and Transvaal, might be at as much of a disadvantage when playing at sea level as players from elsewhere are when they travel to the Veld? These variations in climate and landscape are all part of what makes the Rugby World Cup such a fascinating contest, and that's precisely why continental rotation is laudable.

Slush and mud? Ireland and Italy are the only serious choices. Like you pointed out earlier it should go to a new host.

Scary !

Security sources in Dublin said yesterday that the gang had intended to kill others in addition to Byrne in their rampage through a hotel packed not only with boxing fans but with supporters of the Welsh rugby team, in town for Sunday’s Six Nations clash with Ireland at the Aviva Stadium. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/07/dublin-drugs-shooting-spain-gang-warfare

We are never going to shift his attitudes or arguments or consider any alternative opinions or points of view.

It is a waste of time. And those feeding the troll (myself included regrettably) are just going to perpetuate this fruitless topic.

Hope you're keeping safe, Pot Hale. Sounds like it was pretty wild in Dublin yesterday. Be careful out there